Marketing Against The Grain

what have i told you there's a company out there that has grown faster than chat gp how wild would that be well that is the story of lovable we are lucky enough to have founder anton os osaka on this episode to break down their incredible growth now this is a company that has grown to a hundred million in arr in less than eight months with only forty plus employees ant anton breaks down how he thinks lovable is going to change the way we think about software lovable enables the ninety nine percent of people who cannot code to actually build apps i go through a couple of ways that lovable can help unlock value for marketers today how should you be used lovable and anton speaks about how people can make a great career in the ai world make sure they are highly employ and sought after all of this and more on this episode of marketing green anton thanks very much for coming on to the show we have anton os osaka here the famous founder of one of the fastest growing i think maybe the fastest growing app of all time lovable very happy to have you on the show anton like likewise it's it's great to meet you again carolyn you've done a lot of speaking i think a lot of people have gone through the story of lovable and i know we have a certain amount of time here so i wanted to kinda dive into some of the key points about lovable to frame it for our audience and the lovable is an app that allows you to build anything i think you call it the last piece of software you'll ever need there is a stat i wanna kinda call out which you may have tweeted about which i think is one of the most incredible stats of all time which is like two point five million sites were built in lovable in june that's ten percent of all new sites on the internet that month maybe just start at the start how did you end up on ai for code how did you end up in lovable like what was your path in to build on this company and then we can kinda get into some of the ways the changing in how we think about software today sure i mean it's such a fun space to build in and as you said ten percent of the sides of the internet there like imagine all the creativity and the humans that are excited to create something that is actually the driver behind that it's not us being the driver behind those websites but how it started was that i was cto at a yc startup and the company was growing but i knew i wanted to do something more than e ecommerce enable and the optimization around that so when take the first version that came out it became clear to me that this is going to continue to accelerate and we're going to be able to build very complex applications like systems on top of this raw fundamental apis and i thought about exactly what to build over a few weeks i have together something i called gp engineer which was a similar premise like you claimed english and then you get a working application running on your computer i put this up on really for developers where they put their product and then i woke up to thousands of people using this really videos about how to use it and this really set the tone from that point so this was to when i half years ago for many of the companies that are about letting ai create software and i had story the company around this at that point in time but after thinking about what is the change you can do in in the world around this topic it became clear to me that that developers that you said much less than among percent of the world's population and what you can actually do now is you can create new type of interface for two the the ninety nine percent who don't write code to be able to be part in this huge revolution we've seen in basically tech companies being built on the back of software engineers credit a software so that's what love mission is about it's to unlock the creativity and many of the best ideas which are among the nine nine percent of people who don't write software code yeah and that has started building company and we launched lovable late november and since then we have many millions of users and i just noticed it's that that you have hundred and fifty thousand websites that are seeing really like a lot of real traffic that people have successfully built with the the custom domains as on yeah and to kinda set the tone here we first actually spoke when you i think had just launched gp engineer because we cover gp engineer actually on this channel we had played around with that built landing page and like like kinda sounds like a way back win story like way back when it was gp engineer that was last year and so l has like become europe's fastest growing startup up you're over a hundred million in arr at one point eight billion valuation like in eight months and so what was the moment where you were like oh this is like different than i thought it would be this is really growing beyond whatever i could have even imagined like was there a moment when you were like this is something i had not expected or maybe you did expect it yeah so after the launch we were growing but i was still thinking we're we could grow much faster because this product is such a game changer but when we launched lovable it's was such a huge step up from anything else that was out there but when i was still surprised was that it continued over many many months just continued to grow faster and faster and and that was visceral i didn't think it would be like this endless growth a trajectory that would be known to date we're growing faster than ever the last few months yeah i do think it's partly the kind of you know unquote magic right like there's these products to come along that enable you said at one percent of the world can kinda code my background is computer science i was like an average code yep and you wanna create software for the other ninety nine percent and i remember for gb engineer i built a landing page now if i go into my lovable to i have an app that's around thirty thousand lines code right and that's more code than i wrote in the four years i was at university right i was like i really wondering i could have maybe stayed to be a developer if like these kinda tools existed because i was a pretty average code and so for people like me it gives me my creativity right it it enables me to be creative enable it me to build and so i really wanna dive into this like so when you think about okay one percent of the world people like me used to go to college we did computer science some of us did not go on to be great developers and went into marketing them like me but now the other ninety nine percent can all code right they can use tools like lovable they can build real apps like the app that i built and lovable is like real software that i'm going to be released for users what are the implications of that like do you think about that like what are the implications for the world that everyone has a code and assistant and can bring ideas to life yeah like can i ask you what you build so i i have built a write and tool creative right in tool it is not out yet it is like built for the most part on lovable and we have some other tools that we've kind of used as part of that yep is it like an ai it's an ai tool it i'm not trying to promote by product but it's an inspiration tool i think where most creative writing and tools go wrong as they try to produce copy and paste tools ai is not a thing you copy and paste it's a great creative outlet and so what it does is it makes it really easy to create inspirational nuggets for your audience and then you build upon that and create great content for them i love it look so well your question is like how it's going to affect the world and what we're going to see is that people like yourself like this is a really good idea and you're also good at marketing right so you can build a successful business and there are millions out there who have been held back by how difficult it is to find the capital the time to get and understand how the code or like how difficult it is to learn that skill set they're not going to be able to create real businesses and it's a huge lock speed as well so what used to take people like spoke to someone that mckinsey recently spent six months and just getting the first version of a a new tool they wanted to create for their business now that she did it in three weeks with lovable so we're going to see this explosion of good software tools and like the first version referred off like the first viable product but if you treat enough i think we're going to reach millions and millions of lovable products built on top lovable yeah and for especially people who have with some school skill set in terms of the distribution side of software products there might be like an even larger unlock where i'm hearing people who used to have to work with engineers in marketing it's been held back by engineering capacity and always have to communicate like pdf writing documents they can just go can just take down your idea of what marketing funnel or a new tool for improving your work and then you build the whole thing yourself yeah it really changes like the dynamics in the inside of large companies as well in the workplace yeah yeah we we had an off upside in san francisco recently it's our think big and we kinda pitch game changer ideas the things that will really drive the company on the next five years now in a pre lovable or these kind of tools era it's a lot of presentations and wire frames yeah and it's kinda cool because there wasn't a real presentations i call it the transition from memo to demo and like every presentation was a prototype right i had a prototype everyone had a prototype you could use real software and kinda bring the idea to life and i think that's part of the internal use case so you can prototype ideas much much more rapidly yep real quick we're giving you the ultimate guide on how you can use lovable to turn your ideas into real web apps life this guide will show you how to build your own landing pages in less than twenty minutes create your own lead gen tools and test your campaign ideas all by transforming your conversations into work in web apps plus mat g viewers get an exclusive code to get twenty five dollars off any plan get it right now grab it at the link in the description now let's get back to the show the other thing about lovable is it's not just a new tool that's allowing people to do new ways i think you're growing the company in a very different way than traditional software companies are grown so you have around i think forty five employees maybe more because i know you're growing much much faster just but at your revenue that's insane like they amount of employees you have to rev you is probably i don't know if any other company has achieved something like that could you talk to us a little bit about how you think maybe differently about building a company than a traditional ceo and a non ai native company like are there some grand principles you have that you think are fundamentally different than other ceos it's a good question i think a lot about the future much of the work that is not human facing is going to almost be instant and unlocked so that means that you want individuals to the company that are really good at a bit of everything as you generally bet on people that have a high slope so that you can see that they're very very good learning new skills and do so rapidly language which i think works well in age of ai where everything is changing very rapidly but most importantly in how i think about building the companies to build a team or people that really care about what we're doing and ob obsessed about how the team works together our users the product that we're building and like make sure we work better and better together every week and people who are generally a humble and nice you want to be able to work with yeah good at their job of course that that's how i think about building the company and putting that team together is the most important job that i have yeah you mentioned an important trend there which is do you see the way company shift because you may kinda mention that they're that they're you know kinda generalist powered by ai so like maybe a a marketer can do many jobs a salesperson can do many jobs yeah because of ai and so the specialist domain expertise is maybe not as important as it was or you know how do you think about that specialization versus general specialization because of ai it's a good question like for building software products it's very valuable to have the very very deep expertise of like if you're building a very complex thing which is a software product yeah if you do a change how it's going to affect your user so how do you bring them how do you develop a software product together with your users and having seen that many times is very useful but at the same time marketing for it example i think it's always changing so marketing in a sense is being good at learning things rapidly and being creative and what our tool that allowable does is that it actually helps you to be more creative because you can move much faster from like an idea to prototype or a website that you can put out to your just a like a marketing funnel and you can get validation and you can go to the next and go the next idea so i think i think creativity kinda actually becomes more important in this age yeah so if we're enabling many more people to be able to code and lovable and make it much more easy and one of the kinda cool things in lovable azure not just making it easy to code like you are really building an internal app that allows you to bring ideas to the public much much faster so the example is i was talking about something in the podcast the next day i wrote it and put it live and lovable on a domain like i bought the domain a lovable i hosted it through lovable and i was live within actually like five minutes you it was like incredible how fast it was and so you're kinda like really building the entire ecosystem but if we're and making it much easier for like people to code and maybe code gets comm i would love to hear your opinion in that so you know coding becomes comm monetized and then you believe that the actual real skill to learn is how you market how you grow an audience how you distribute that product because if we have an infinite number of products so some of them are still gonna have to rise above the noise because the distribution part is still incredibly complex i think that building a really good product is still going to need a lot of obsession understanding of your users and a lot of many many it rounds of iteration so that doesn't go away and it's it's not easy to build a really good part and the expectations are increasing but i it is true that the distribution piece without distribution nothing matters on on your product side so every founder i recommend to find a way to either become really good for distribution have a c founder that's really good distribution in some sense and really understand one channel for distribution with sales or marketing and it's never been easier to learn something than this year in twenty twenty five i think yeah with ai like all the good content that's out there so i think it's always going to be a combination of like marketing or sales and and both and good at a really good product and that that's how businesses work yeah i think your point has taken in that there's a big difference between prototype prototyping and a minimal viable version and having a product that can scale to many many users i do think one of the things we see happening and we've talked about in this show is the amount of software and apps launching in yep on this trajectory and the meta marketing channels is actually going done because like google search is being disrupted social lisp being heavily disrupted by ai because we have a lot of ai generated content saturated in those channels and so i still think those two skills are gonna be incredibly important i'm curious get your take when we had talked first you are like super interested in the creator space and i do think b b will look more like b over time where you have creator led companies you know you have the audience and then you actually launch software because it's so much easier to do that like do you see that as a trend for software in that you have people today who are quote unquote creators monetize that audience through affiliation or brand partnerships and now in the future could just use lovable to build an app to monetize that audience yeah it's a good question i i think consumers want to buy from are people they know and trust and creators are is someone wanna that you know and trust so you do have a huge advantage on the that side if you're created i like yourself that people know like how you think can this digest interesting information from you than from someone that i've never seen before right so that's something worth investing in but you don't have to play that game i in a sense you can play play out the games as well and be very successful yeah i suspect like one of the things our audience we really curious on we have a ton of founders but marketers tiers as well yep and you are a founder of a company that has free marketing you have like real real viral vitality like the true sense of viral vitality where lovable is everywhere without you having to do a lot right because you just have a great product and it's really the kind of again i do think there's as like real thing which is the magic of the tool that allows you to do something that was never before possible so you have free marketing what do you want for marketing like when you kinda step back what could great marketing do for lovable like what how do you think about that i think it's mostly about amplifying the word mouth which is like the absolutely largest channel for everything right in aka customer organization so that is about letting people be equipped to spread the word of how long lovable is best to use like lets you build simple websites in the five minutes that you you did care but it also lets you do much more lets you build like what you needed the software engineers for in the past and they're being able to letting the community that's out there show that a lot of people love running at lovable events because it's so fun to have see people create for with love for the first time it's probably the one of the biggest parts then it's always important to bring your users with you as you evolve the product that i i think having being good at product marketing and in running and doing launches of and explain what's changing and like how this affects the capabilities is one function of or marketing there's also now that we have large companies lot of fortune five hundred companies using lovable that large contracts everything that comes with enterprise marketing and then i mean there's but the more technical side of how we engage with our users that are like with emails and other touch points so i think people call gross marketing yeah these all not the lot functions that i'm looking to become not like per class on we're focusing on making the product better but we're looking to expand the team and doing all of these things really really well yeah i think like having someone who can really foster the community and continue to build that i'd i think there's a so much scope for you guys to do like cool brand stunt i know i was had this one we were doing a podcast episode of like front brand stunt and one of the ones we were gonna do for lovable is again it's just a certain time period to do this for but you would set up a cloud kitchen but instead of order and food you would order software and you would have people instead of like uber eats you would have eats and so for a two week period you could actually order lovable eats which would be your partners and they could come to anywhere and build software and you could film at all and they would build a software in five minutes i think that kind of stuff yeah there's so many cool ways you could bring lovable to the other one i'll just give you which is like one of the ones i think we'll be really cool for you all is on a scribe now but like slider used to have so many of the original pitch decks they're so interesting right they always get a ton of attractions they have millions of views the original pitch deck for airbnb the original pitch deck for dropbox like one of the cool things about lovable is you could go back through time and instead of doing the pitch deck you would have done the minimal viable version and you could have a creator whose only channel is doing the original viable version all live doing lovable like say the original airbnb do the original pitch deck i wanna just quickly show you this i do want our marketers to come pay you for this ideas no no these are all free anton i i these are all free for you this is all i do is think of ideas so want more i've got more if there's anyone out that i want to help make this come to life please reach out in the or or if you wanna forward it to make sure i just wanna show marketers like one use case you should think about for lovable you and again this is an idea minimal viable idea because this took me five minutes literally five minutes and so again this is for lovable and so what i did was i did per complexity to basically research and create different personas for lovable like who uses lovable and and then based on one of those personas had chat crafted to product idea and then build a lead magnets so it traditionally marketers anton would create these things called lead magnets so lead magnets are i go to a blog or i go to a website and there's like a content thing to download like a yep white paper or there's a slide deck or there's a template now what i think happens is all of those content powered experiences become code powered experiences because to your point now marketers can code with lovable and so this is an example of a little lead magnet i use lovable just for you know just for fun because you're here but basically what it would do is it creates an roi calculator so it's basically showing new user how much you can save code in through lovable and building in it yourself versus going through a traditional agency so you can just go build the calculator you can say hey i was going to actually build like this book of service and then you could basically say i was i need that these elements in my book in service yep and then i continue and i would say i went on the market ready launched what they want the agency to do so it's doing some like theoretical numbers here to like calculate what you need to actually build that app and then it basically says hey you would saved like this amount of money with lovable right yep it's trying to take your credit model and then basically if you wanna get the detailed breakdown you can sign up yeah and so for market tiers i think this is a way to think about how you can use lovable straight away which is you have the static borne things that you give away today all of that stuff can be built with interactive code and to your point i think that's why you know your marketing team can actually teach your different personas how to integrate this into their life ponder i love you show how you can use it yourself i know vp your marketing emily who who says like what you're saying here like this never accessed to engineers and it's a new a world so she's built a lot of different things like this sales training platforms and it's similar thing as to what you're saying there what you showed us right now what do you think to karen is the mindset that the marketers should have around using ai tools like lovable like is there anything you've seen in terms of who successful now over the last few months or the last year i think there is people who just have builder dna even in marketing and builder dna for me is they are in the weeds they are deeply curious and they are deeply iterative and so to your point right like it would take me prior history i wanna build an roi calculator from my company i want someone to come there and they showed them the value of my company what do i need to do as marker i need to go on like cry for help for the engineering team who are trying to build product to help me maybe i have a couple of engineers on the marketing team you know what they're doing they're fixing all the bugs on the website and so i'm stuck doing the same stuff i have to do a static pdf it's a white paper here's like all the calculations you can download it now if i'm a real builder and i have that deep curiosity and i'm ten now i could just go use lovable and the cool thing is i don't just have to do one version of the roi calculator this is kind of the other thing i tell marketers is we've been so dependent upon tools that we have to create one thing for thousands and thousands and thousands of people and because of that it gets quite generic now i can create a roi calculator creator for like small groups of my customers on my prospects like it i can create a hundred roi calculators and they're all slightly different based upon who that customer is or who that potential customer is because it's so much easier for me to do that and so i think we can actually tailor these experiences much more through apps like lovable and i think these tools i did a write up on the future of marketing and then i talked about the fact that the future of marketing you have to create code powered experiences through tools like lovable and bring your ideas to life in more creative and interactive ways and to me it's gonna be part and parcel of your marketing and tech stack like lovable these kind of tools you have to actually use them to actually go attract customers because customers will expect more and more value in terms of what you give them yeah i think every human is like a build their talk and that yeah that agencies is what we are we want to contribute to but to be able to do your job well or sort of business that leaning into that and building creating a lot of things is a wonderful takeaway yeah the creativity often comes from leaning to like trying things and then you become more more creative i'm asking you questions now about what do you think like your marketing teams should organize themselves differently given that you can do much more with less yes it's kinda where we started words i agree which is within functions you need like a code to build a real proper tool and maybe they can do more because they have ai but when marketing marketing is a very unique team in engineering you have developers yep in sales you have sales and they kinda go in a linear path you know sdr bd account executive in marketing you actually have a collection of small little teams you all are just in the kind of wider marketing ecosystem and they all have like different domain expertise so like a product marketer has very specific domain expertise and product marketing a brand marketer has like very specific expertise on like brand campaigns performance marketing all these different teams are very niche and they all have these domain expertise in their thing and i think what ai is gonna allow you to do is just break marketing into storyteller and you're telling stories by the product you're telling stories about how the product changes the world your creative storyteller enabled by ai and you can just do all of those roles that used to be many many different roles in the past and then you have marketers who are very engineer led and they can actually integrate ai across the customer journey right across your how you do paid across how you do ai engine optimization so i do think you can now have ai marketing generalist who are really in this pod structure and they can do like end to end marketing they don't have to hand up to this person hand out because the problem we're growing a company you luckily you mind hot up not experience this yet because you're still small even though you're huge in terms of evaluation is the more domain expertise you bring in the more silo it's all of the comm yep hand to this person hand off to this person hand off to this person and that's what really slows you down but makes sense so you said storytelling and technical yeah it is also the most important things and if you think about businesses building their products on lovable and us in an opinionated way taking care of more of the analytics how do you track on what users and understand what users are doing how to unlock more value run ab tests optimize the website for our discover on search what do you think is going to be the hardest on the technical side for us to like solve as of life product life cycle platform but that does everything when that market all the marketing needs yeah for the market needs i think it's going to be the marketer ability to do distribution right it's not just your ability to bring that idea to life only valuable to the marketer or if they can actually get eyeballs on it and so the more you can help the marketer deeply integrate the way they distribute that into the product the more successful the marketers are going to be because they could build something and then it gets no visitors and no traction and anything well that was a kinda of waste of my time it's i think there's like this really interesting arbitrage opportunity where we are stolen in the small early adopter phase even though when you look at the growth of your company and some others it's like off the walls how fast things are going but it still is early adopters yeah so really if you're this podcast and you are now starting to use lovable you should feel excited because you are in the early adopter stage and you're gonna be one of the first market tiers to do things for your audience using a tool like lovable versus what you've done in the past which is create a pdf right and i think this is the moment to take advantage of that because at some point using lovable to do this will just become best practice and when things are best practice then you're forced to just optimize things try to get incremental improvements yep i think you nailed it i i know as sim was is running a him and she's obsessed lovable built the event website of course on lovable and if you're an early adopter today with art tools specifically there is so much you need to still learn like if because if you're not an engineer you're using lovable you learn so rapidly you don't have to learn to call but you need to learn a bit of like how things would come together and if you invest in doing that today you're going to have a huge advantage the coming months in in your velocity of building things yeah i'll give you one other quick use case for lovable in particular for market tiers it can easily integrate marketing into the market tiers data sources we are even looking at this you can create personal websites again based upon the data you have about a cohort of users so let's say i create a little segment of users and these users are cfo at a certain company and they have these certain problems and these certain likes and dislikes and then i can like feed that into my prompt and lovable and i can create the micro site based upon that data that again speaks to what i think is going to happen which is today a lot of marketing has done broad based marketing because we have to do that because of the way things work whereas i think tomorrow marketing is done at the real granular why i call the micro audiences like today we do segmentation and it's like broad based your a company of the size your this real title you're in this country that's basically what we do me say like you all like the same stuff here's the same stuff whereas now with tools like lovable i can just get so much more customized and i can create more of those things because it's so much easier to create right lovable and i think that's gonna happen as well one last thing of you don't mind antoine just in terms of talent right yeah one of the things you're incredibly good at is how you attract talent you have obsessed over talent one of the things you have talked about is trying to hire teenagers like you're hiring really young folks o mccabe for intercom also recently talked about the fact he thought ai was gonna be more suited for younger people because it's just natively how they do things can you maybe think just end with that part like if you're not a teenager and you're not natively ai what should i be doing to make sure that in the future a founder like you would still wanna hire me i don't really don't try to hire tune just generally so i don't think it matters well like bill stay very very curious i think that's a very important part of yeah learning these skills necessary staying curious experimental have a strong bias to try things out and always take a lot of actions not the wait i think the demo of memo is i can one of the ways of so speaking about how i think people should be acting take action try things go out there validate your ideas and just doing that is going to be very helpful and that's very important part of the culture of what team were putting together at lovable awesome i totally agree i think that in one skill you can have right now as curiosity if you're have a curious mind that kip always says ai is a ba berserker for the curious mind mh i think if you have a curious mind if you're a ten if you're incredibly proactive like i think one of the things in lovable i suspect your team is very autonomous as well and i think you have to be much more autonomous much more proactive and and deep c and on this was amazing i know you have at least thousands and and thousands of people asking you to come on their show and so i do appreciate you spend in this amount of time for us because i know you're super busy over in saf you're trying to grow this business and so what we appreciate it yeah i mean wanting to sit down with you for blake before level even in the camera so it's gotta be hoping we could go run to it and looking forward to talk to you soon again thanks anna

mit recently had a study that said ninety five percent of all ai use cases are failing what does that mean is anyone even get value from all of this ai stuff well we are gonna show you how i use these three use cases inspired by others that i've talked to to actually super charge my morning and to make me much more strategic to make me much more focus and to drive clarity across the work that i'm doing to make me a true ai enabled leader and to be able to ten x the amount of work that i can get done this is a mo in the life of kirin flanagan let's get into the today's show alright so in this episode we're gonna go through kind of my early morning and late morning so this was kind of inspired by an mit report that was launched recently that said ninety five percent of all ai pilots are failing now i'm gonna come back to that in a future show because there's a reason all these ai pilots are a failing that i think i can help companies with but because of that i thought well i wanna show how i use ai in my day to day work because ai is being really impactful is driving value if you know how to use it so in this episode we're not gonna do a complete day in the life because i started to do that and it would take couple of hours we're gonna do more than in the life we're gonna do me get on my laptop between eight and eight thirty people will say wow that's pretty late i have a toddler so i'm up from half five probably doing parenting things and so i spend the first four hours typically doing the kind of use cases that i'm gonna show you today i'm gonna use ai as my chief of staff that is gonna help me drive clarity and focus then i am going to use ai to create any updates i need to create i might have to create an update for the board i might have to create updates for the exec team you typically do have to spend a lot of your time if you were across a broad range of things update and folks in your company how those things are going well we want the ai to do that why do i love the ai because i can spend more time doing the work practicing in the craft and have an ai i do a lot of the other things like calms my kinda chief of staff those kind of things and then the third one we're going to use ai my kinda late morning so i've done my morning i've got clarity and focus i've got the very early morning com at ten am i really need to switch on my focus brain i'm a morning person and i'm gonna start using ai as my red team and i'm gonna show you how that works which is basically help me think more critically more strategic but the things that i want to do so let's get into these use cases alright so what is ai chief of staff now i will say that i have a more complex tutorial on my subs stack that goes through this in much more detail if anyone wants to use ai to run a complete in model but i'm gonna give you one that i use time and time again to run projects and i think it's just as valuable and this is one that i love because you are running large large teams or large projects but even if you're not even if you're just running something for yourself or a couple of folks you are collecting a lot of information and it becomes hard to like keep track of those things so this chief of staff is really set up to do three core things that i think are really important it's able to kinda surface any blockers you have really what you want to do is solve blockers for strategic projects as quick as possible right blockers are the things that are stopping you from being successful the other one is trying to identify kpi gaps and basically what that is is whether you're measuring your kpis the things you said you would deliver the metrics you said you would deliver the things you told the business you would deliver maybe you're measuring those on a weekly basis on a bi weekly basis on a monthly basis but what you want to be able to do is easily see where across those different projects you are missing those deliverables you are not doing the things you said you were going to do and then the other one i really like is what parts of my project are behind schedule we said we would deliver something on a certain date and we're tracking behind that date because i wanna dive in and start to really figure out how to solve that so there's three core things there there's the blockers there's the kpi gaps then there's any initiatives that are behind schedule so what we do here is we create a project and then within that project we have very clear instructions and now you can set the instructions however you want we are going to tell it to be clear and concise and insightful we're gonna tell it to ground itself and clear evidence so it always cite its sources we wanna surface blind spots we wanted to challenge my thinking be respectful ai we wanna bring in external perspective where valuable can you give it access to the web we wanna think long term and systematically we wanna prioritize accountability we wanna always end with clear next steps questions you consider etcetera etcetera so you can set this up in any way you want but that's my kind of instructions another instruction could be really simple like act as my chief of staff these are the things that i want you to replicate then we wanna make sure that we have the core files and projects to be able to do the things i'm about to show you and so big important ones are the docs that kind of keep a running an update of these projects and show blockers that show metrics that show core deliverable dates and so you have to continue to you upload those into your context that project not the problem with all of these assistance is every time you update a kpi doc every time you update a blocker doc whatever doc is keeping track of your projects your kpi your blockers your deliverable dates each time one of those is updated you have to re that doc and so one of my things that i do as i use single docs to keep everything in so we have a bi weekly spring doc where we talk about what we're gonna get done in the next two weeks and what we got done in the previous two weeks and that's a run dock everything is in there so i just have to upload one dock we have a kpi dock where we update every month with our core kpis and so i have to just re upload one dock and then we have another doc that really talks about the core road roadmap and deliverables and we update that every quarter and because it's a singular doc again i just have to re upload one dock so now i have my little chief of staff here and so in the morning what i really do is i come in here and i basically say okay like for my week i have this thing where i don't want any blocker to go unsolved within a given week right so everything has to be solved within a given week so i can basically tell it to summarize all the key blockers from july tell me if there's a mitigation plan because everyone on my team who something always have to have mitigation plans and if there's not will the ai should suggest something you can see here it will pull out the kinda of different work streams my project it will pull out the blocker will pull out the mitigation side it and so it we'll say hey this is only partial no resolution yet and then it would suggest a mitigation plan and it will go through that for each work stream in my core strategic project and then it will give me a summary table and so this is how i plan my week right i'm like okay these are the hard things that i have to solve i wanna try to solve the hardest problems that can actually drive the most momentum and so that's what i do and so this is like use case number one for my ai chief of staff i actually will run this and then i will plan my week or my day accordingly say hey what's the biggest blocker that i need to solve with the team all of these need to be solved when in a given week let me show you one other one for the chief of staff which is the metric gaps which i really love so basically what i wanna do is look at anything that i missed right any of the core work streams that are missing their metrics i want to help to get back on track that is really important dive into the work dive into the weeds make sure we get those things back on track and so you could see here it would pull out the work streams it would tell me about the metric it would tell me about the reason given because you always have to give a reason if you have a metric you have to give a mitigation plan if you have a blocker and then it will go through these things and basically again at the end it's gonna create this really cool table to show me all of the different work streams in this strategic project that are currently missing their metrics now i have a summary of the biggest blockers and that's one part that can actually help me focus my time and then i'm going to have a summary of the missed metrics and then i'm gonna have consistency of patterns so that's the other thing i love which i put in because you can see the product trial the paid is an emerging pattern whereas the customer acquisition is yes we've missed this four months in a row and so this is pretty cool right merge flagged twice this kind of detail is just so useful for me and so that's an example of what my ai chief of staff does i set it up i give it all of the project details the project data the metrics the deliverables or roadmap and i use it to clarify and focus my time real quick i'm giving you my own ai executive team tech stack this is what i use in my actual morning routine with my three ai assistance my chief of staff my executive communications assistant and my ruthless strategic adviser you can steal my prompts my workflow and everything in between to transform your own workflow get it right now grab it at the link in the description now let's get back to the show then what we wanna do is well hey i've got some updates here now i've got a bunch of information i'm going through all of my strategic projects usually what you'd have to do then is do some updates for different teams for the board and so that takes a bunch of time and so we don't wanna do that so now i switch over to my custom gp and this is my little custom gp that helps when me do all of my comm and so let's see what's in the custom cheap tee it's very very simple actually and you'll be able to craft this figure needs the instructions are basically you're my executive assistant you take notes metrics and you put them into executive level updates i'm gonna get two options here in a different one i have many more options so you can have whatever are the kind of columns that you usually have to do now what you have to do is give it the example output so i have here there's two options there's a two page memo or there's an exact slide outline and you can pick either of those things and then i give it the actual format for each so this is the memo and then this is the deck now the easiest way to do this is actually take an example of one of these you've done in the past and ask chat to create a template for it and then use that template in your custom gp as the output format and that's the easiest way to replicate columns that have worked really well that your exact team have given you really good feedback on that the board really like and in that way you can replicate that each and every time so you don't have to redo it and so that's what we do we have two options for this one i give it a bunch of data that i got from here right i've grabbed a bunch of updates i've put them into this kind of format and then i just asked that to create an exact slide outline and that exact slide outline it's pretty basic right i have versions of this that are more complex but just to show you how i use ai to do my work i would basically go get all those updates i would grab some of that information and i would put it into my custom gp and i would craft the deck that i need to update the exact team with the board team with whoever it may be and then we'll give me this really cool outline now i've got my outline again i have not really had to do much right i've just had to guide the ai to do it and the cool thing is because of gen spark i can get my slide deck on pretty quickly right this is gen spark i just put that into gen spark i ask it to create the deck now you're gonna say this is really basic again this is just for example purposes i have a much more complex one that i use for exact updates that are based upon our format so you can change the format to however suits you and gen bar can really just replicate that then i can just download this as a pdf and send it and now i've got my ai chief of staff have done all of my focus time and now i've got my exact update my custom gb to take a lot of that information and to craft it into a deck or a to page memo and then i quickly use gen spark to create that internal comm and then i send it to my team so now that's been my morning right i've come in i've worked with my chief of staff to get the core work streams that are missing their metrics i look at the patterns and i say okay i'm gonna solve this blocker today i'm gonna help these teams solve this this metric today and then i go and say okay well i need to provide some updates to tell people how these different strategic projects are go in grab the updates from the chief of staff i give them to my custom g i create the deck into gen park and then gen park creates the content for me and there you go that's a busy morning you know an hour and hour and a half i'm pretty focused i'm feeling good about what i need to do but now i need to jump to actually solve problems and so because you know i've got my blockers i've got my core work streams done missing matrix so then i jump into my red team prompt so my red team prompt is really gonna help me with my strategic thinking so i'm gonna give it a brief and then i'm gonna ask it in this case to give me the top five counter arguments with evidence any kind of hidden assumptions now i test them and a prem mortem what could go wrong an early warning signals what i'm showing here is ai is a really great thought partner so let's put in a strategic brief this is a again an example you would have taken this from the blocker right i would have just taken a blocker i would have just taken a work stream that's missing its metric i would have created a little brief which i've done here and so this brief is basically we're planning to shift our paid acquisition budget heavily into tiktok ads we're able to double sign ups from gen founders in the next twelve months we are gonna reduce google ads and we're gonna spend by forty percent to fund this got a goal here to double sign ups maintain our c increase brand awareness we have content constraints and assumptions right we have a fixed budget we only have one in house creative team our assumption is tiktok will remain a fast growth platform in twenty twenty five for gen z the market context right the ic gen c founders bill in saas or consumer tech competitor to a scale tiktok in twenty twenty four but struggle with ad fatigue competitor to b still focused on linkedin higher c for stronger b trust known risks and questions will reduce in google ads hurt bottom of the funnel conversions can our small creative team sustained tiktok content demands will investors perceive tiktok heavy strategy as too risky for bd no look at chloe who have about a hundred billion different creators created on tiktok okay so we have a brief so again i'm just trying to really show you how this integrates into someone's day because i don't think anyone really talks about that they just talk about a lot of hype i wanna paint the picture again that i've gone for my a chief of staff i've got my focus in the blockers and the metric gaps i've done my updates that i need to do for the different teams and then i've taken one of those pieces of focused work that i want to do it's a blocker problem it's a work stream kpi gap there is another one that this speaks to which is the opportunities that we have i we always keep track of like what are the bigger opportunities that we can go after we create a little brief and then we wanna use chat to really start helping us with our critical thinking now a very important thing here is you do not wanna outsource your thinking never outsource the core skills ai is an assistant so when i get this what i'm going to do is take it away paste it into a different dock and work in a different doc with it right because i wanna remove myself from ai for some them amount of time to apply my own critical thinking and what i'm seeing a lot more of and it does worry me is people creating things verbatim from ai and they've done none of their own critical thinking i read through it and i'm like do you actually really believe any of this or are you just paced on what ai told you was a good idea or a bad idea that is a terrible use of ai there has been a study released very recently that ai can make people much much dumb and the reason that makes people much dumb is because you don't outsource yourself your core scale is two ai you actually use ai as an assistant so let's run this prompt and because this is a thinking task i've got gp five thinking i would use gp five pro but i would have had to prepare that in advance because it could take some amount of time alright here's a tough love red team on tiktok heavy plan so the top five counter arguments with likely evidence so it goes through this it talks about the platform regulatory risk is non trivial in the us which is true tiktok creative treadmill can run a small house team goes through a bunch of data it's collected about that cut in google forty percent risk knee cap and bottom of the funnel of the demand capture like it has some really good points here right search is shift into tiktok which helps but it's still early and volatile what are some of the hidden assumptions gen c founders discover b b tools on tiktok and it has tests that you can prove or just prove that look how good these are i can actually prove or disprove this hidden assumption we can keep c to below two hundred dollars on a tiktok at scale and again it has an actual test for me to figure out if that's a true assumption or not this is so good one in house team can sustain tiktok content cadence again it has a really good test so it goes through all of the hidden assumptions in that brief and then tells me how i can actually test them and i love this one amazon do i really famous example of this where they do pre mortem how this fails and early warning signals so failure mode a creative burnout hacks spikes so what goes wrong frequency climbs call action and watch time fall performance stalls because fresh ads aren't shipments so this is all about the fresher you need for tiktok you have some early signals you have mitigation failure mode b demand capture gap after cut in google which basically talks about the fact that as you cut off google you see all of these bad things happen audience message mismatch views galore but below conversions like tiktok drive a bunch of vanity metrics and it goes through a bunch of the failure modes and then actually gives you practical guard rails so it actually gives you some really good thinking and really good thoughts about how to run this in a practical way so this is a great starting point right for any of those blockers or metric gaps then i can actually red team them with a chat and specifically gb five thinking and then i can use that to actually kick start my approach here and how i want to add my own craft and skill sets to actually start to think about how i solve this and so that is how you use chat t five really as your chief of staff as your really strategic colleague to super charge your mornings to create a ton of focus to do your comm with your exec team and then to actually be able to red team all of these different things you do to kick start your strategic thinking so you can apply your own skill and craft to make that much much better i hope this was useful three core use cases for and hopefully you can start applying them today in your own work

how is ai gonna change the way we work and grow a business well we have the best person to bring us through this elena ver who is a season that i'd grown in all types of businesses and now owns growth for the fastest growing an app on the planet lovable lovable is an ai app that allows you to build any kind of software you want and elena is gonna give us a behind the scenes look at how lovable operate what are the things that lovable have learned to run their business that have allowed them become the fastest growing app on the planet we're gonna give you the new ways of work in how ai is gonna help us all get back to the craft and the number one thing you should do if you wanna start intricate integrating ai across your business all of that are more on this episode of marketing against the green welcome ali elena to mark against a grain very very excited to have you on thank you for having me excited for this conversation too so elena you have spent your career helping to grow some of the largest i would say kinda like product led growth brands on a planet mural dropbox survey monkey you've been an adviser to the likes of super sound v mongodb i always say that if you want to build like a pretty good portfolio of companies p g companies to invest in you could just go to your linkedin and script it and then that's true it's a pretty good portfolio of an index fund now you're at lovable which is the fastest growing ai app on the planet faster than chat from thick data that i have seen you can correct me if i'm wrong which i think most people are going to find protein mind blowing you're leading all things growth and so guess maybe i'll just start with you could choose to do anything with your time that you want like any company that is a product led growth company has ambitions you go join why were you excited to join lovable or what kind of pulled you into lovable also a european company you're based in san francisco so there must be been something pretty appealing about that company yeah so first of all i'm based in nashville so i'm a little bit closer to your time zone versus okay pacific time zone which is very anti collaborative with anybody in europe butt i actually was gonna retire after i left dropbox because i thought that i've kind of seen it all have done it all and the patterns were so excruciating clear where every single company is solving the same type of problems and i didn't wanna just continue coming in and applying the same pattern over and over again i just felt like i was playing more either politics or like i was just doing the same work that i've done five years ago ten years ago i felt like my learning curve has been quite decelerate over the last five years so i thought that i'll just live a push lifestyle of just doing some lightweight advising maybe do some traveling some public speaking and really just focus on finding another copy for myself and start to separate my identity from what it actually means in tech and like what i built up in my head as what defines me but lob came around at of the left field for me is like as i was like planning my retirement so to speak and there's multiple reasons as to why i've joined and even more so i joined full time so this is not even an advisory or any interim engagement that i've done before like i went all in part of it is because i really saw that the ai native companies are functioning very differently compared to traditional tech saas companies and i wanted to be in the middle of it selfish officially to just understand what is going on and if i'm gonna pretend to advise companies in the future i need to see on the other side of how ai native companies are actually operating but then that's just only small portion of it the bigger portion of it is that i saw lovable has a potential of becoming a generational company that redefine something on our markets that redefine what entrepreneurship means that redefine what software building actually entails it redefine how products can actually go to market so i wanted to be a part of that because i actually saw an opportunity of really like i'm doing those shackles of existing problems and same old patterns over and over again having an opportunity to cod a lot of my experience into next generation of apps and then maybe just unlock a bigger opportunities for growth to focus on that is something fresh and new as opposed to same old page optimizations onboarding optimization right and content creation games that we're in right now so i saw like two ways it's i wanted to selfish see what ai native is going but then at the same time i wanted to just see if i can be part of that change in the field and part of the change in the category as a whole i think that's a really good insight that you had seen it all you've worked at a lot of different companies done a lot of advisory and so you do start to just see the same sort of problems and patterns and you also see the same way of working and the things that kind of become like really draining yeah because they're the same kind of friction points what has been some of the most eye open ways and that company so anton had spoke to him a couple of times what's really amazing is i think they were like thirty five people when they got to over a hundred million in revenue or near seventy five million revenue and so they were a pretty small team and so they must be doing things like very differently than normal companies so considering you've seen like some of the best run b c or b b companies what are things you think they're doing much much differently that i've kind of surprised you there's couple of them the first one which i find the most interesting one is the level of autonomy every single employee has at lovable meaning that they can make really big decisions on a what are they gonna be working on how is it gonna get done how is it gonna get shown to customers what are the interaction points and that level of autonomy meaning that there's no cross functional dependencies on not to complete really any project create so much agency and people and create so much passion behind what they're doing because it's not just something that a product manager road and then just hands off to engineering and when engineering done is just like gets handed off to marketing everybody's doing the full development life cycle even to some gt pieces honestly almost all of the gt pieces a lot of the times completely within a singular person mh and that is scary for larger companies because they don't believe that people let's say engineers on the ground have the level of understanding to be able to make those choices however if you empower them with that information the beauty of what comes out on the other side in terms of the velocity in terms of the quality in terms of not having a scope creep but actually the output comes out better than the initial thoughts or initial like a discussion of what it came out with generates this incredible ability for every single employee to have really big impact in overall experience of the company but also not having to hire a lot of employees that are just coordination matrix right between people that are actually doing jobs so there's couple of rules so to speak cultural rules that we have at lovable which is number one everybody is responsible from end to end and everything that they touch they're a full owner there's no such thing of like oh i need this person to do this part that person no you try to do it all by yourself and only involve by the people if it's absolutely necessary you are responsible for making all of your own decisions if you don't have information you go ask for inputs but nobody's gonna digest it for you to you to just do your little piece you have to have a full level sense of ownership we have more generalist than specialist because of that and we do contract specialist quite a bit so i'm not gonna lie that thirty five people is the only human capital that lovable has yeah probably have twenty to thirty contracts or stu that are working side by side those full time employees that are providing the specialty and where we lacking in some of the generalist hires and then just velocity above all we understand that velocity is one of our biggest mo so we optimize for it and obviously it's not something that we're gonna continuously pressuring on we don't wanna create a bloated software as well by continuously shipping into it but velocity of hey from idea to where customers are feeling it should be at most weeks definitely not months most definitely not years and we followed those principles pretty passionately yeah autonomy i've kinda heard that was a big part of it yes the end to end is super experience i wanna come back to that which is in grown organizations as you said you have this person is a little part they handed it off to another person who has specialized knowledge they do another part and then there's a lot of commas because all these people are hand and work off to each other and then the velocity of execution is just very different probably because you have people who can be autonomous work end to end and so they can ship much faster if that's an expectation of them yes on the kinda end to end portion of it like so you have these folks they can be much more autonomous and end to end do you think that that is going drastically change how you think about functions so you've stood up many a growth team you understand marketing pretty well and these teams you have like somewhat specialist teams you have you know a growth team that does onboard and a growth team that does monetization in marketing you have even many more specialists teams you have like product market and brand all these kinda different niche teams do you think differently that there's just going to be a marketer a growth person and they can kinda do it all so i think that we're gonna walk away from full time employees being highly specialized however i'm not gonna walk away from the fact that specialization knowledge is needed still very much for every single company so i think that we're gonna be in a space where these ai native companies will have smaller full time workforce and that full time workforce is gonna be a lot more generalist in nature both obviously some specialties will still exist potentially but then there's gonna be a lot more contract to hire fractional interim adviser specialties that augmented in the areas that that generalist doesn't have a really big detail but there's also a difference in the product cycle to me too because if you're at the beginning where you truly building things generalist are the best at just putting the building blocks in place and this is where lovable is at and then there is a product life lifecycle where it just goes into pure optimization portion of what has been built as it's scaling before it goes into the next horizon of innovation we're not at optimization and that's why the specialties here are like not as important for us to have in full time positions in the company because we're still putting this big building blocks in place and we're just focusing on people that understand what those blocks are gonna be and giving them full freedom to do whatever they want to do in the future this might change but i think that we have taken the notion of just having only generalist and very small employee course to a completely new level compared to any other texas company that has reached a hundred plus million and then yeah by the way i mean we already like a well over one thirty so like we're growing still really quickly it's not like we've doubled our workforce either so i think we maybe like a forty five people right now overall so wow i just think that the companies will be able to maintain a smaller head count for much longer during their building stage an optimization stage i don't even know if like companies will be able to have it for a really extended period of time the way that they have it right now because the categories in the ai are evolving so much faster you constantly need to build and even not lovable the way that i think about us in the market weird are at one thirty million in i don't think that we have product market fit secured i feel like we have to regain it every single month because things are changing so quickly so it's build build build before category more plateau and how much it's changing and then maybe things will shift but there's no end in sight at this point to that shift yeah it's such a fast move space mh hey if you want elena playbook make sure you click on the link in the description and also we're gonna put elena incredible promotion for all of you to start to use lovable and get value from it straightaway away click the link in the comments to go get that promo offer today one other thing then i heard is well it's pretty evident right the lovable is a much smaller company than you would typically see at the revenue you're at yeah and so one of things that happens is teams are much smaller and so they would bring in someone of your experience in your caliber who's a growth leader and is used to like hire and standing up teams instrument practices and do you think people who have done leadership in the past when they go join these companies are gonna be actually thrown into can you still do the work right i'm kinda going down the path of like there's a lot of people who have got themselves into a tough position where they really are pseudo move around the budget and move around people and they don't really understand how to practice the craft anymore do you think they're in for a tough time when we start to see more and more of these small companies do bunch much better i think that role of a pure manager is gonna die i see the writing on the wall and honestly think it's gonna be better for all of us because they just create additional layers and friction and they hold information hostage from other people and they just sit in meetings all day long they've lost like i said all of their vertical expertise they only have horizontal oversight and i think anybody who has lost their vertical expertise and be able to do things hands on because there's yet so caught up in the meetings and just like high level tasks i'm gonna be obsolete in the next five years and that is not gonna make me any friends but at the same time if a person has lost the ability to change altitude i call it like changing altitude as you're working to where you can get into the nitty gritty details and do things yourself as well as then escalate and then think also strategically then your role is on the line if you want to go into ai native world i still think that there is gonna be plenty need for these types of people in the legacy tech and in other industries as well they're not gonna be moving in this direction as fast maybe eventually but if you're talking about ai native companies that vertical expertise becomes absolute necessity in what to do and even like for myself i've always missed work and like anytime i get into a larger company i end up doing almost none of it so i almost look like a micro managing team because i get into like all of their workflows provide the feedback do some designs and then like get out of like what are you doing your vp like go go go isolate over there and i'm like i just can't like that's not who i am so it works for me very well because i feel like i have this really nice balance and it's actually accepted by the company but i know that a lot of companies reject that from their leaders they don't want them to be in a vertical ic level expertise because they want them to be strategic so anyway i all all that is to say is i think their true manager job is on the chopping blog in the ai native world yeah number one piece of feedback i always get is like hey why is karen in doing the work you shouldn't be doing that and i kinda set my teams up and say i actually prefer to do the work and do people management so yeah you probably have to like tell me of all the people problems and not have to tell me about any of the actual work problems because i'll be in the work and it's just how i've always believed like you should never lose touch with do in the work no because then you don't understand what your team is doing and you're copy exactly manage them yeah and it's not that much fun being an expert in like just calms and horizontal people management i just don't think we'll have a lot of fun with that i know i guess some people some people love it yeah they that is true i think i think the other part of that is like so there's like those kind of folks i was called them kingdom builders they see their whole worth and a company is like the size of their team yes no got a big team i'm really important like i quote my big team yeah and i've a lots of budget so how do you see people kind of equate in their worth in these ai companies like maybe you're going to be a pretty senior person with like a team of three or a team of four like yeah how do you think about that in like these kind of companies yeah so i think that first of all my leadership principle which thankfully aligns with this ai native world is that the best leaders are the ones that have best work on the team happen without them like if you need a leader to actually like produce something in the team i feel like you're a shit leader because then you didn't lead you created a bunch of dependencies on yourself and that like dependency is what helps people feel job security especially if they have no vertical expertise they actually have don't produce anything themselves yeah so it helps them feel that this is why they earn the spot or why they get paid how much that they get paid or why the titled matters so i think that it it's just a very flawed mindset that we've created and higher keys and titles that is just a holding ours as a as a industry behind i actually think that the team size per manager can increase quite drastically you know how we usually say like oh seven direct reports or so is like should be an average of the person to manage because you're assuming that you're resolving a ton of cross functional dependencies for those people you are assuming that you have to give them a lot of direction in terms of what needs to be done i think that the team size is actually an ai native companies can go much higher for who like your manager is per s because you can have ten to fifteen people team and they can just run independently and yes there's mistakes that happen there's actually like the biggest objection that i idea is like oh my gosh what if they go into like this wrong direction and i'm like who cares because we can really quickly go into a different direction like the cost of mistakes is not so big anymore so you don't need that coordination matrix and like that supervision as much like okay we've fucked up let's go this way and like no big deal so i actually think the team size are gonna grow not necessarily shrink and i think that there's gonna be fewer management layers i think that work charts i hope will collapse i hope that we're just gonna have ics leads and heads and that's it there's not manager senior manager director senior director junior vp senior vp regular vp chief officer so it like all of this is unnecessary and it's created by this matrix approach that we think about building software and building teams and when that pulls off and again i don't know how far it can scale nor do i even know how existing companies that have that really high matrix approach can pivot in this direction and whether it makes sense for them to pivot but the ones that get started with it it's just makes so much more sense to remove that management layer for as long as humanly possible but that also requires very different types of leadership that comes in into the companies yeah a hundred percent if you can have people that can be much more autonomous you can break the kind of friction points where you have to create all of these roles that are really just semi calm roles like i get information and i pass on information then i pass that information on and then pass that information done and then there's the person who actually does the work and they do the work and then i passed the information back and it goes all way across like yeah every person doing the work is like four people passing the information of that work being done around the company and it's trying to like get back to having people who are mostly doing the work and be able to do that i think if you can have people who are autonomous and then i think the end to end part is a big part because in bigger orange you've worked in them it is a lot of like everything gets broken down into more and more specialized knowledge which means it creates more and more cons lines it's a game of telephone that that the end result is just completely different than initial idea too so it's just like everything along the line ends up being disappointing output yeah so i think that we have an opportunity with ai need mister to reinvent some of this org structure and ent and what it means to build companies and i hope lovable is gonna be one of those companies that helps reinvent and rent write the new playbook too and so one of the things i wanted to get into is has ai made you rethink the role of growth and so for our listeners growth typically help kind of a self serve product led businesses acquire users get users to activate on product which means they've done something of value in that product they've used it in a meaningful way then they actually figure out hey i kinda get people to use this product more often and how i can get people to upgrade to the next package of this product and you've done that and you've instrument that so many times for so many companies do you think any differently about that now as you go into lovable i do so i define growth specifically from me in product led growth lens is that i tried to look at product and see how can product answer questions of how do we acquire customers through viral your user generated content how do we activate customers how do we monetize them and how do we retain them that is like at the core what i'm trying to accomplish in every single company the interesting piece here is acquisition piece i still very much feel is there if you need to think about how can you stand up any viral loops and you use a generated content how you can utilize it across all of the other channels so that case i still feel very connected to and very focused on especially since a lot of marketing distribution channels are collapsing or not performing well at the moment and product is still becoming like one of the biggest def def modes of how you can acquire customers if you can lean on product to do the acquisition so it becomes like almost the biggest marketing channel if you can make it so obviously not every single product can be made into marketing acquisition channel itself activation to me is has been very interesting topic because i've been a huge proponent of activation i've written so much about activation and companies treat activation incorrectly however with ai the problem statement of activation changes quite a bit with ai you don't have a bunch of screens a bunch of options a bunch of things to do there's just the prompt box and everything in activation just happens with your interaction with that prompt and that is part of core product experience it is no longer like very little things that you can do in growth of like of making it right because there is very little real estate to even touch when you're having a truly ai native product that you're working with so it's like the the real estate that growth can touch has collapsed quite a bit from many many screens and many many options and all of the awareness that you needed to build and all of the from good friction to bad friction the more screens less screens like none of that exists all a sudden it's just box so right it's very different mentality because now you just need to use you ai to get to that aha moment as fast as possible and then still what growth does still focus on a lot how to monetize because we don't really know how to monetize ai properly and ai a cost are changing very rapidly everybody's going between usage model to outcome model but then you still have packages with feature different there's just like so many still unknowns of what is the stable and scalable and profitable models for us to monetize on ai and how do we educate customers and our potential users on what those options are and how should they think about it because it's quite different or margin profile to the actual usage patterns compared to a traditional saas so i still think so acquisition yes activation i'm not like i'm not even sure what's happening there monetization heck yes there's like so much work to do on monetization and innovation honestly that we can introduce with ai and then retention to i think retention is always gonna be a growth problem but the retention here is more not necessarily like in product again experiences it's all about all of that communication and rapid that you can drive through both ai getting to the point where retention is a given because they've built or done something meaningful as well as all of the vehicles around that growth skin layer on making sure that in any like resurrection react or communication pops clear yeah and i was thinking that because i'm a pretty active level of user actually they use it every single week building in couple of apps one pretty big gap and like yeah like it's i i know how you would even consider activation because it is really just like me code in away with my assistant and then like how do i know i got value from edits it's like did i build the app did i get a page bill like what what is like that initial thing of value and for the most part that is the product experience and the things i love that lovable have added is i can now basically just connect buy a domain i can just buy domain in the app i can connect to the app i did that recently actually i bought a domain i connected it to the main and it was hosted in like under five minutes was like mh crazy that helps my retention is that a product thing is that a growth team so these things do start to blur yeah but i do see it as product thing because it's a core product experience and functionality we do define activation at lovable is you publishing an app so we say like okay you finished prompting so we're not just gonna optimize a number of prompts that you do because that's almost an anti metric once you start going past a certain point and then we're also pushing our activation definition so that's like an ultimate that you imagine didn't and click the button but you actually started to either yourself use the app that you've built somebody else internally in your company is using it or you actually published it as a product and you're starting to get customers to it as well so one of the core growth things as well is trying to figure out those metrics for your core power users like trying to split user on the power users medium users not your core user base i can imagine one of the problems is maybe you have too many users because yeah how do you even start to like w who is your user right one of the interesting and things i had a conversation with someone very recently about all of these ai code and assistance and there was a couple of interest and things they brought up with lovable which is hey lovable has this whole other persona type which is like a person who used to play video games which i never even thought about now go off and they see the same kind of thing and they're building apps right i i don't even know what that persona is the student is a persona like they all these kinda young kids are building like cool stuff for themselves personal software basically is a persona have even thought about who are we building for and we should just build for anyone with bill apps or do you start to think about like who is my course user group yeah so there's a couple of thresholds that we thought through of how we go down into definition without restricting the horizontal aspect of the platform where anybody can come in and build an app with us so first decision that we thought is that we building for technical or non technical users that was like a really polarizing decision because if we're building for engineers it would just require it as we're coding right we would just require very different treatment we decided to build for non technical group but we don't wanna piss off engineers too so it's like very much our adjacent persona of do no harm there and make them not have an allergic reaction to lovable but at the same time they have amazing tools like per that they can go to and we're not gonna try to compete with cursor on owning engineering persona the next level is actually okay non technical what are the use cases that they're gonna be doing we've identified two that we're focusing on right now which is one is the solar that are coming in and building a product versus the other one as a team player so it's an engineering adjacent persona within the corporation product manager market our designer sales finance ops like you name it and they're doing it for prototyping or return tooling and what whatnot the only reason that we separated the two is because one is trying to build the business unblock the other one is trying to improve their product typically un unbelievable so there's is quite a different outputs of what they're trying to get but the building product un lovable is much more complicated portion of the use case compared to just internal tooling so our vision is to enable more solar to build products un unbelievable but on the path there the team player use case just is like it makes sense for us to tackle that as well so we can help people with productivity and just learning ai in their workspace as well and we felt a really big market pool from bad direction as well but then on top of it then you can also start talking about specific jobs to be done and for example for building products we're said okay we don't wanna compete with shopify on e commerce use case like we don't wanna redo shopify shopify is fantastic they're doing good and we rather integrate and partner with them to create a pipe coating option for their storefront as opposed to going into direct competition versus some other apps like b b apps so even some b2c apps there is no really clear so we're like okay yeah this is something that we wanna do from end to end ourselves so we kind of went done that waterfall decision tree of where is it that we wanna focus who is it that we don't wanna piss off that we think is a really important persona for us versus where is it that we're just not gonna play at the beginning but every single decision that we make is also don't alienate anybody mh just have a very good focus on where you can add additional value for specific user set that we wanna focus on yeah that makes sense but when you say like when you're trying to delineate between those users in terms of the experience i assume the code and assistant is just tuned to be a great code assistant and all of the way you do the deli elimination of features is in all the kind of additional features built around the assistant i guess what i'm getting at is like when you when i go in and i start coding with my assistant it's not categorizing me as like a novice code and then the model of the the assistant has actually changed the way it's like working with me it's like everyone gets the same sort of code and experience and all the functionality around it as the things that are kinda of more projected for the different user types yes because our mission fundamentally is to make it just work yeah so you don't have to know all of the details around it but if you know the details you can look under the hood and you can go into all of it so this is why we have dev mode right this is why we have github integration so if you wanna go into those details feel free but fundamentally we want to build an experience that is seamless from a customer perspective from end to end of and things that have not even felt possible before pushing further past just like a beautiful landing page or the beautiful like prototype that you can create un unbelievable to something that is actually functional yeah okay so if that's the in that alien elimination piece we're not holding the code hostage you can go look at the code you can go adjust the code you can go the take code out if you so wish so that is the piece of where it's an adjacent use case that is very important to us but it's not something that we are actively focusing most of our time in creating a functionality for yeah okay just staying on the topic of growth for non ai native companies for companies that are trying to figure out how to apply ai to their go to market do you think companies should start not replace but thinking of their growth team as more of an ai innovation team and i can give you a quick example let's say one of your companies that is a p and human company so like part of that company again for our listeners they usually have a self serve model you can go in and you can buy something and then they have higher valued plans and you would talk to humans to do that and they would still have humans for customer support success and so the use case i use that kind of breaks the tyranny of like we do things to make the humans more efficient and then growth are doing things to make the self serve model more efficient is i think most of these are all gonna want to converge on this ai multi model agent right so if you go to a website you'll have an avatar the avatar can like speak you through the product it can sell you it can get you on board and then you go in the avatar can like use the product on your behalf and like we i mean talking to founders and they've been showing me how to do this it can actually onboard you and then when you have a support issue you talk to the same avatar and the avatar is basically saying hey like i can support you i can do this thing for you so in that case really the entire you know growth journey is really just a ai version of a human mh and i think that has started to like maybe break the ways that we've traditionally thought about growth versus what is not growth and i'm wondering like is a better way to think about it that companies should just have a ai innovation squad which could be the growth team but like they serve both the human and the self serve components it's an interesting thought i do believe that in the future once more products will get sucked in into ai first way of doing things and different products will be on the different velocity of getting to that destination but i do think in next decade that is how we went from on prem to cloud this is gonna go from like traditional tech to ai shift and we're just starting we're just seeing the cusp it at the moment and i do think that a lot of growth teams and honestly like most of the other teams are gonna almost create their own agents in the company that is gonna run autonomously like why do you need a really sophisticated growth teams to do conversion rate optimizations on landing pages why do you need growth teams to go do lifecycle email marketing optimizations no like you you should either buy an agent that does this for you or you should build your own agent that does this internally so it's that's is like the portion of automating like the one zero one thinks that yeah we know what needs to be done there let's educate an agent and let it go run i do think that there's still a path here for growth teams and really any other teams to really lean on the some of the human creativity and some more of innovation portion of your job where you're actually thinking more outside of the boxes as opposed to having to settle things that ai can do for you for the most parts so this why i like i don't think people's jobs in vertical expertise are going away i think they're just gonna be lifted in the type of work that you're doing but in terms of introducing ai native to companies so i've seen so far two things happen two businesses number one they create like an ai innovation team that is central that is sits somewhere with office of ceo or sits somewhere with the operations and they try to buy ai tools and they try to they have people use the tools and that doesn't really work because it it's really hard to pull your head out of the sand out of like everything that is going on and all of the priorities that you have and say like now i need to go and learn something new like it has a pretty big rejection rate and people fundamentally think about it as a burden and something new that they reject out of their system as opposed to an opportunity to do something differently and better because there's still a learning curve it's not like it's magically just happens you still have to spend additional cycles of implementing it even if there's like something better on the other side that isn't that is waiting for you and then the other way is that they hire these ai native employees and just plop them into organization and those ai native employees that i think about it just like i said in lovable like end to end everything is solved with ai tools from coding they spend eighty percent of the code where written in ai and then just like do the final twenty to whether it's marketing they create creative an ai copy and ai they like they go use so many ai tools to like get a lot of this jump done and they get completely suffocated in the organization because like they just become a regular employee and they're not able to really like showcase the capabilities of what they do because they immediately start overs stepping some bounds and cross functional roles and responsibilities that exist so i actually don't know how existing companies can do this maybe intercom is the only case study that i would be interested in right now that like i've really shifted themselves and said hey we're gonna be ai first and like we're blowing everything externally and internally but it's like a company wide thing because i haven't seen a data point of successfully introducing it from one department and spreading it into the others but i hope that i'm wrong and i hope that somebody figures it out because i'm on unlike an an advantageous situation that we're starting from scratch so i don't have to deal with that tech debt an organizational debt which is just not fair to then go and say this is how you do it because actually have no idea yeah are there any no brainer growth use cases for ai you probably get asked by many different growth leaders and growth teams what are some ways i should you start to use ai and what i'm doing is there any kind of no brainer things that they should start doing some brainer are fairly straightforward they're not really big change like i'll just tell in myself so what is my growth process was before versus now so my growth process like i would go i was scout for the idea of like i would think about something i would go and i'd write the spec i'd go review the spec with a lot of people then i'd go to send it to a designer for some sort of inspiration and the vision then i go review all of the designs then i'd go to a copy and the say okay now let's finalize the copy then let's go to engineering let's talk about what is possible engineering scope that up scope it down whatever it is and then it gets into the road map and then maybe something pops up in the product right now to me even that cycle is completely collapsed so i have an idea that still needs to happen so like really focus on like your idea generation of like where it comes from then i go to chad it writes the initial spec for me it's like seventy percent there i take it and then i start just crossing it out in like an hour i'm finished with a spec i'm not t it with anybody i'm pulling engineer immediately into it and saying hey i have an idea break it down for me because this is the spec then i go and i prototype i i've code the prototype so they can react to it too so there's like an emotional reaction immediately that shortcuts to a solution of what actually needs to be done and then i hand it off to engineer designer sometimes in more complex complex things does get involved for sure i have an incredible designer on the team it's one designer supporting our entire team right now and he goes into like more complex complex things otherwise like it's it's it gets done and then they just being new when it's live and that's it like there's is no more of that coordination so it's just it's it's quite shortcut but anything from writing specs to designing prototypes to vibe coding the pages that you're gonna be publishing to even creating small automations on how to you do things internally to just help you not have to be sitting with a bunch of google docs and google sheets constantly everywhere so it's like a live app that can live for people it's helpful to just shortcut a lot of these things that take too much time and that decelerate you the velocity setting yeah i love that example one of the ways that i loved use it was we had this off upside in san fran and i was going there the pitch like kinda business strategy and part of that business strategy was a new product now in the old world i would have had an idea and then had to get a designer to like mock something up and then had to like pull in some people to write a memo and then had to pull in an engineer to tell me what on what isn't possible and then had to like probably present mock in the presentation right that that usually is what happens and so what i did in this use case i kinda built a t ai team so i built like the little cto which is basically using chat projects uploaded twenty different docs of all the technical specifications what are some of the best principal cto and then i built a ux designer and then i built a cp and i have my own little team and i basically just presented a fully baked app and i it's again lovable build it in lovable and we're gonna do that app and i just feel i was me and kip talk about this a lot is like i think some people feel dis by ai because they are like i'm maybe not need it because people are more autonomous i've never felt more empowered too maybe it's because of an expert as well and i just love and when my little ai team doing my own stuff but i actually think it's like the best time to be someone who actually enjoys doing the work and maybe doesn't enjoy when you go to big companies all of the stuff that has to surround that work and you can just do so many more things and bring your ideas to life so much much quicker with apps like lovable and that's like one of the reasons i actually love what ai helping people to do yeah i agree ai will automate some portion of our work and if that's the only portion of the work that you can do then yes your job is threatened however to every single one of our roles we're only scraping the floor of what actually we can be possible of doing because we called back by things that ai is now all automating so i see it as an unlock a free time that i can spend on more meaningful things and you just have to look forward with it like two people are just afraid that because their entire day is taken up by the things that ai can now do that they're a threat but i actually think it's exact opposite it olson sudden opens up the entire day for you to innovate and for you to actually do something different and more meaningful with your time so i hope people see it that way as opposed to in the negative light because think that's producing much more good to us overall especially as at the dust settles yeah from the initial shock yeah yeah i think that's is a great place to end like as my good friend kip says ai is a z for the creative mind and i i actually think that is very very true and you should look at this as a way well i can do to your point we are held back by all of the things that hold us back is tooling in all of these kind of things that hold us back and so there's probably like things that you're capable of that you have never even reached that bar yeah and i think that's the thing ai is going to allow us to do so thank you so much elena for coming on sharing the kinda behind the scenes on the fastest growing ai app on the planet i'm sure we have a bunch of listeners who are at lovable users and we appreciate the kind of walkthrough through yeah and i wanna offer a special offer for people that haven't tried lovable yet so i'll pop it into a a page that will be followed by this podcast so check it out to see what it is awesome i'll follow up on an episode with some of the best things i've built in lovable so people can see how i'm using it awesome and then you should sign up for the page to show how you can do the same things that i'm doing thanks so much elena for coming on thank you for having me

alright hey everyone we're here trying to answer a question that's on every marketer mind i don't get on a call with a marketer these days where they're not like oh man i'm getting less traffic from google nobody's opening my emails nobody's downloading my white papers all of this stuff just isn't working like it used to what's going on what should i do what is this vibe marketing thing i keep hearing about and joined by the one and only alex lieberman friend of the pod alex is gonna be our third presenter here where we're just gonna talk about what marketing is gonna look like in the future this all started with alex and i go back and forth on twitter on like the idea of vibe marketing and vibe marketing is it's kinda of the early term for marketing in that ai era where you can just kinda have an idea work with ai tools and go from idea to an initial marketing campaign marketing asset what have you so i think the biggest problem most people have with where markers going is they're kinda two in the weeds of the technology and not enough in like the changes that that technology is having on humanity and like kind of the playbook to take advantage of that change right i wrote a big memo that kieran has seen on this topic and like the kind of defining point of view that i have on this is like the the next era of marketing whatever the heck you wanna call it will not be defined by who can publish the most content but by who can express the most taste act the fastest and establish the most like resident identity with their audience which it was a lot of what you were talking about alex right like i i don't think that's that far off from what you were talking about but that's very different than like ai workflow and i need that's what i'm trying to like really anchor everybody in this discussion in the show today is that the world of just like publishing a bunch of content is gone yeah like that what's not going to work in the future what's interesting to me is and this is actually why i think there's so much similarity now in software and content is because if you're to ask me like what are the mo in software today i would say there are four modes and you guys are gonna have a strong view on this but just bear with my lack of definition rigor the first is what i call brand and wrapped in brand i would say it's ux taste and customer obsession okay so i'm wrapping up in there we're buying now the second is speed speed of putting things out into the world the third is unfair distribution and the fourth is data having data that actually makes you better at doing basically everything in one through three my view is that is what's going to make the next kind of like generation of software businesses build sustained advantages and what i'll say is there are certain software businesses that truly do have a technological mode now but i would say that is like the vast minority of software businesses if you would ask me what does differentiation in content look like i would argue there is some difference properly that we can argue you but they look very similar in terms of mo and content i like your list of for kieran and you may or may not agree with one of was say i would swap speed for learning learning is actually the benefit of speed speed is how you learn and how you learn faster than everybody else but it's like learning loops and basically iterating and making faster progress i might swap out speed for learning but i don't know here you buy what alex is saying there i also think that's generally right like i think distribution is always and mode companies had but it's really hard to have a kind of mode around distribution because of the way things are collapse and i think the biggest just mo a company will have is always going to be network effects but like network effects are very dependent upon the product you build i think if i was in the product building game i would want to figure out how to build network effects into my product because i think that is like the hardest thing to disrupt and maybe switching costs but even switching costs like one of the crazy things to think about is like switching costs would definitely a boat it's like really hard like pull all my stuff out of this software and bring it over to this software but actually if l become the interface to software right we saw zapier has launched in open latest a response api it's available in cloud four so now you can actually access and do work in eight thousand apps via just sitting in open sitting in cloud so if that's your interface switching cost may not be a mode either because you can probably tell the ai just switch a lot of your stuff over to one of those apps but i think network effects which is like the product becomes better each time another customer joins so every customer that joins actually enrich reaches the experience for the customers who are already a part of that product that team me is a really hard thing for anything to disrupt yeah i totally agree that and the only thing i would add to network effects is i totally agree with like the historical definition which is every new user makes the product better for the previous user and i think that's always gonna create sustained advantages in businesses but i would say the other thing that creates network effect now is data because the quality of your data is the quality of the output of an ai tool and so just again using a quick small example of dis it's like in a dis studio the quality of the interview you're getting with the ai interviewer is going to be dependent on your previous studio sessions because it's using all previous knowledge of every conversation you've had with it to ask your questions in the next session real quick if you're tired of fighting the algorithm and want to actually build a real connection with your audience we've got the ultimate guide for you this guide goes beyond the metrics it helps you actually connect with your ideal audience these frameworks have been tried and tested by marketers who've cracked the code beyond the noisy digital world this will make your marketing unforgettable if you want it scan the qr code above or click the link in description now let's get back to the show i think there's a playbook for companies to build tools because the cost of code has become so low that even if they're core product doesn't have network effects that they can build tools that acquire data that enrich their product right like i would actually build tools with the only objective to get unique data search yeah into my product when i think about what da has built with agent dot ai like i just think about basically because the cost and complexity of building software is on was zero now like lead magnets as we've historically known them are just like software tools now or like like yeah we're gonna get into that that's part of the show today i wanna to talk about that all those things you said especially data ux and usage right you kinda had ux bundled in but like yeah people have to use the tools you know like if you don't use dis in your example alex it's not gonna have the context it's not exactly as good of experience right so usage and the user experience to drive usage becomes very very important even more so in technology companies i think alex on what you were saying there though if you look the last like ten to fifteen years of marketing right what was rewarded was management can i manage people and can i manage software right like can i be an admin can i know the ins and outs of this product or can i manage all of these humans and orchestrate them and organize them to do these really complex manual tasks right like that i think from my experience what a lot of doing marketing and leading a marketing team was like over the last ten to fifteen years to your point that's changed dramatically the only thing you actually need to manage now ai agents and they're in some ways a lot more self sufficient than at least traditional software and subscription software right and so that is like a big big shift the second thing here is you're almost penalized in this new world for being too specialized everything so new everything is changing so much the generalist are going to do well over the next five to seven years like the broader your skills the broader your understanding of the world your market what people like what people dislike and your ability to translate that into stories and content and applications and agents for people is going to be incredibly valuable and i still think the foundational skills of storytelling of being able to interpret data and get the right insights out all those things that have been core to marketing or that but it's like if you're going out and hiring a marketer right now are you gonna go hire somebody who is like spent the last decade doing email marketing and deep deep in the weeds of mail marketing or you gonna hire a more generalist profile of person who can take on more and kinda be that account manager across agents in a portfolio of work you're probably more likely to hire the ladder than the floor it's all about curiosity i think the reason we wanna do the show today is because i think the three of us talk a lot and marketing is changing far more and and far faster than anybody actually realizes it like everybody's feeling it on the edges but it is like existential and at its core the foundations are there but everything else outside of those foundations is basically getting rebuilt right i think that's what we're trying to say is that things are changing much faster than it feels like and we tried to paint some perspective on the future and if you were thinking about trying to be an early doctor in an early wave of that change here are some ways you should think about it and some ways you could operate around that we'd love to hear in the comments questions follow up ideas for future shows where the three of us talk more about this please comment down below but alex is always it's awesome to have you on my friend i hope you are well we'll see you on the show again here soon

the number one question i'm getting asked by founders and marketers is will the size of every marketing team and every company shrink right our marketing team is gonna get smaller because of ai on this episode i give you my thoughts on what i think the future marketing the team looks like because of ai and break it down into three core things that i think will change on every marketing team so if you want to know how to think about your marketing team in the future or to think about your marketing career in future this is the episode for you the number one question i'm getting asked is our mark teams going to shrink in the future because of ai now i think that's not specific to just marketers every team is wondering the same question if ai is going to do more and more work our teams going to get smaller if you want to check out how people feel about this you can go over to reddit hang out in the marketing forum and it's a tough time for marketers they're thinking jobs are decreasing teams are gonna get smaller how should i think about this is a marketing career even worth it is ai just going to do the job well let me give you kind of three core takeaways for how i think mark will evolve in the future and what a marketing team will even look like now number one marketing is a very unique function because it is a team of teams and let me be more specific about that marketing is made up of all of these specialists right you have specialists in product marketing you have specialists in brand you have creative specialists you have demand gen specialists performance marketers specialist specialists you have all of these different teams and they have specific knowledge on how to do their specific part of marketing now you compare that to other teams like sales sales kind of have a more unified kind of format right they have sdr str and bd and account executives but they're all kinda selling it's a very similar skill set whereas in marketing a brand marketer kinda knows what they know but they may not be very good at performance marketer you might get it a performance marketer who's not really great at product marketing and you might get our product marketer who can't really do brand and so you have all of these collections of different specialists who kinda know their own piece of marketing and it's a really important piece whereas and sell you can sell if you can sell right in customer success you can kind of increase the usage of customers or you can in customer support you can answer tickets or you can't so i wanna do three takes here or three kind of core parts to how marketing will evolve in the future because of ai number one we're gonna start to see a g gratification from specialists to generalist right i think that is the thing we're going to see in marketing where i think marketing is going to become more and more so can you just do the craft of marketing and powered by ai and it allows you to do more of these roles it's not gonna be so specialist i think there is gonna be specialization that i'm gonna talk about but it's gonna be a lot less specialized than it is today i don't think you're gonna need a collection of different specialists for every different piece of marketing and that actually makes marketing kinda challenge because it's really hard to kinda grow that team because you're constantly having to look for these people with very unique and specific domain expertise so that's really number one i think we're gonna start to see a move from specialization to general specialization we really understand the craft of marketing and you have ai to help you do much more marketing than you were able to do in the future you're able to cover off lots of each different roles because you just understand the core nuts simple bolts to marketing in the core craft of marketing and you can do it all with ai so number one we're gonna go with more general we're gonna see this move from specialization to general specialization that's number one in the future of marketing team number two i'm gonna show a quick graphic for this this is the the core trend then if there's going to be this move to general well does that mean one person can do all the rules i think it breaks down via this kind graphic where you have people who have to operate at the kind of polar opposites of what we used to say about marketing and what do we always say about marketing martin is art and science marketing is art and science it's creative performance marketing and i think what's going to happen is the best marketing teams are gonna have people at the edges of each of those things so they're gonna have to be incredibly creative to make sure that their market stands out above the noise because what's happened because of ai well there's just been this thing called ai sludge which means there's more and more and more stuff being created a lot of it not very good but it's all going down the same stream it's all going down the same channels i know by the way these channels are becoming less and less impactful because they're just crammed full of more and more ai generated content through your social feeds through google search we're seeing more and more of that traffic go towards ai reviews and into the ai assistance and so what we're seeing is less places to distribute our content and less places to distribute our marketing and much more of it and so you have to be really really great storyteller a great creative create things that really are just full of taste and can stand above all of this sludge and can elevate you above the noise and to do that i don't think good enough is going to be good enough anymore you really have to be at the outer edges of creative and really hone your skills there real quick if you're a marketer who wants to survive in an ai world we've got the ultimate toolkit for you we've got a list of twenty prompts that you can use to create high quality content across any channel these prompts are tried and true from a founder who runs their entire business solely on ai get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in description now let's get back to the show and on the opposite end i think we become engineer led and you have people who think in that way and they're again at the outer edges of how they do that which means they are very very good because they're gonna figure out how to integrate ai across all of the things marketing and do inclusive of my customer journey let me give you a couple of examples but this is really how marketing is gonna work in the future you have your incredibly creative people and then you're incredibly engineer led people and what they do i watched the video just before i came on from one of our team one of the things that they figured out is how to actually scale personalized videos from sales reps in really interest in ways they actually personalize the video to things that that person has done on your website they're able to ingest the data personalized the video in real time have a personalized landing page and actually present something from the salesperson talking to that exact prospect now that's an example of a engineer led use case where someone has really figured out how to integrate ai build this incredible system to do something at scale they're gonna figure out how to turn your website into your best salesperson via multi mobile agents multi mobile agents means that you can go to a website conversation when an agent share your screen with the agent then an agent could be your first salesperson they're gonna figure out how to integrate personalization across all of your email we've done that we've seen increases of up to five hundred percent and conversion rates right you're gonna have these incredibly engineer led people to figure out how to instrument ai across your customer journey and across all of these kinda human led tasks and that we do but we're gonna do them in the future via ai enable so i think you marketing is still going to be i like to call it more creative and engineer led versus art and science but i think ai is in the middle so ai is powering a lot of this which means that the human can spend more time on the craft of marketing and they can spend more time on the craft on the creative side and i think those was creative folks can do many more rules they can do brand and product marketing and all of the rules that require you to do incredible storytelling to bring your brand to life to bring your product to life they can do incredible creative via these ai tools video audio imagery so i think you'll have generalist who exist in the creative bucket and again they're powered by ai ai is in the middle power all of this stuff and then you'll have your engineer let folks and your engineer life folks are really the people who can instrument the customer journey the go to market for the customer bring it to life in a very contextual and personalized way but can also figure out how to do these ai scale task like the example i give you where we're able to scale personalized videos on behalf of the sales team that's how i think marketing teams go from specialization to general personalization and then when they go to general there's two core buckets it's gonna be the folks who are incredibly creative powered by ai can do much more the people who are very engineer led powered by ai can do much more and i think the unicorns gonna be people who can do both right you can do creative but you're an engineer very technical person well kudos to you this is gonna be a great time to build a marketing in career and then the third thing is to end on a really optimistic note i think there's gonna be a ton more companies and so maybe marketing teams shrink but there's a ton of more market roles because guess what really matters in the era of lots and lots of software because ai is going to help people build more amazing software more amazing tools it's gonna really help democrat how you can bring things to life because you have a lot of ai code and assistance and these kind of different ai tools that helped you really build software well what's going to really happen there is all of these new tools are going to need marketers to help market those products and i do think there's gonna be real importance on marketing because you're gonna have to be really really good to break through all of the noise and competition so i think actually marketing elevate becomes even more important than it is today because every space gets more and more crowded and so really that's how i think marketing is going to evolve and that you're going to go from a lot of specialists today to jen as powered by ai and they're gonna break into two core buckets where you have people who are incredibly creative very great storyteller able to bring things to life through text and video and imagery they're gonna be powered by ai so they can really spend a lot of time when the craft and figure out how they can find the leverage to break through all that noise all that noise you see linkedin all the noise you see an x all the noise you see across all of your social feeds what do you actually notice there you notice that things that are really really remarkable and speak to you as a customer then you're gonna have the people who are incredibly engineer led really great at build in things at scale really build great at build in the contextual and personalized customer journey for your prospects and your customers and they're gonna be able to do much more because they're powered by ai and then we're going to have more probably will have smaller marketing teams but more of them because marketing gets elevated it becomes more important because we get lots and lots more products lots more software and we probably get lots more niche products who actually market to all of these customers and maybe the size of marketing teams get smaller but actually the importance of marketing goes up there's some increase in opportunities and actually smaller marketing teams can be more fun at times is because you can just really practice the craft so maybe we actually all end up practice in the craft more and more as ai takes up a lot of the more mundane work that we used to have to do so that's my take on the future of marketing teams in the ai era hopefully this is helpful if you one of those people thinking what should i do with my marketing team should my marketing team be smaller bigger is my marketing career are gonna be okay or you wanna get into marketing like how should i think about this that's how i'm currently thinking about it hope you enjoyed this episode of marketing green i will see you on the next episode

gp five has been out for just a week and it's getting very mixed reviews but one of the applications they told us it would be much better for is creative ryan and all of us marketers and people trying to grow our business but love to use ai to help us do more creative writing is gp five any good we are gonna put it through its paces on this show but i'm going to show you a unique trick to to turn gp five or any other ai assistant into a better riding tool for you all of that and more on this episode of martin against the grain okay so i'm in a hotel room this is what it looks like to record a episode on the road it has to happen sometimes but we still wanna come you with a really great episode and so i'm gonna put gb five through its creative paces is it really a good write in tool we're gonna figure out how good it is in comparison to the other ai assistance by giving it three creative write in tasks but to do it i'm going to show you a quick trick to make these tools much better at craft and content and now first of all let me go on a little rant ai is a great assistant it can help you do a lot of things it can help you do research it can help you do strategy can help you do data insights it can help you do kind of create a content now what i'm seeing is lots more people start to outsource their work to ai so what are they doing they are given ai a bunch of documentation or the given ai a bunch of articles or given ai content and they understand cool create some content out of this and then they copy and they paste and they put the content live and guess what it looks like ai content it reads like ai content and everyone knows its ai content and it is just a bunch of words a lot of the times and they are kind of outsourcing their actual work to ai that is the lazy copy and paste market tier that is the lazy copy and paste knowledge worker think about it what is your role if that is how you're using ai get data put it into ai tell ai to do something with a paste output you are a data entry specialist you are not an important part of that workflow that is not how you use ai ai is an assistant you are the one that the skills is to turn the things that ai gives you into really great assets and so on this episode what we are gonna show is ai as a creative tool that can help you think of great ideas a great thought partner but you never outsource the actual content creation final content creation to ai that is is sure for our way to have pretty per results okay so let's get into this quick thing that not many people do to start with that you should do if you want to use ai to create content for your audience so let's say i have an audience which is v marketing this is like too specific but just as as an example vp marketing and mid market b b saas and so what do we have here okay well what we have is a description of that audience so if you're were looking along with youtube which you should be it show us much better in youtube but if you're in rs and you can't make the youtube what i'm showing here is a pretty thorough description of that audience it tells you but the core truth about this audience this audience is perpetually defensive they are smart marketers trapped in a constant cycle of proven their words to skeptical executives who see mark under the call center darn this is close to the bone pretty rice can you help me survive my next board meeting is something they think about their data obsessed but data overwhelmed oh boy this is so good what drives their engagement we care about this because we wanna create content that drives their engagement right people do not think about this you need to have a content ic to create great content via ai what drives their engagement fear based motivation time scarcity pure validation addiction and it basically talks exactly how you bring these things to life what is their content consumption mindset they approach every piece of content with ruthless efficiency they do scan them for immediate application yes very very important this is actually really really true a lot of marketing leaders wanna look smart and forward things to their ceo to say i thought you might find this interesting they're skeptical by default they have psychological triggers urgency around credibility fo ranked competitive advantage professional survival never been has a more accurate description of market right now how they actually make decisions they don't buy features they buy ammunition for internal plug of the battles every tool evaluation is really asking and will this help me defend my budget it's too accurate it's too accurate content that breaks through winners losers right gives you the loose and then it gives you the deep truth about this audience bottom line they don't want marketing content they want executive ammunition disguise as mark insights brilliant so this is a credible description of an audience that we wanna create content form and i wanna show you how we can use this for gb five but how did i end up here you know one of those movies how did we end up here well this is how we ended up here we basically did a couple of cool things as you learn how to do the cool things on marketing against the grain we created a content ic and so what we did is we first start with the internal data and now your new company this is new to whatever it may be that's fine we're gonna do internal data and then we're gonna pair that with external data if you don't have internal data you can just use external data the internal stuff is actually really simplistic we're not creating an ic and ic is an ideal customer profile who we are selling our products and services too what we are creating here is a content ic who are we trying to create content for it's very important distinction so what this here is gonna do is search for internal data and it does that through customer interviews win loss notes through crm records any kind of content performance you have any kind of email campaigns now i cannot build the prompt that's gonna be applicable to all of you but i'm showing this for illustrative purposes because the data you have internally may be different from the data i have internally main thing is if you can get customer call transcripts one lost notes if you do sales yeah from your crm records and then basically any kind of content performance reports and put them in your google drive and what this will extract is customer language which is really important we wanna make sure that's in our content ic how do they describe things and then we go into kinda content performance right what worked what didn't work what helped influence our purchasing so examples for hubspot is in our customer transcripts we can actually see people referencing in ai chat specifically as a reason they came to hubspot by hubspot because chat gb recommended it that's something we would wanna know if we're korean content to attract that buyer towards hubspot we go through basic persona info right their job title company size all of those kind of things and so we i put it into this which is their main challenges why they buy language notes content insights data assessment recommendations so this recommendation i think is really good what i put here this data assessment recommendation you can choose to have this or not to have it is if you're running this it gives you a confidence level of how accurate this ic would be based upon how much internal data you actually had based upon basically how much internal data did it find to craft this content ic for you and so what it will do is if it's not that confident that this is accurate because couldn't find a lot of stuff it will say it's very low right limited internal data you should rely more heavily in the external research medium is find some stuff but still get the external data for research or for for validation and then hi find a lot of good internal data so let us run this and then we are going to pair this with external data okay so here's an example you know it goes through and finds a bunch of things i'm not gonna spend too much time on because it purposely won't find a lot of things because i'm not trying to run them against a lot of internal hubspot data but you can see it's i put in in the way that we wanted here it's a pretty good internal data and so here the data assessment like it found good things here so it has medium good foundation from interview templates and some actual customer interviews gives you the data sources what you want and then a recommendation usable insights but external research validation and then it talks about the things that it needs so you could basically take this and craft an external prompt to get the rest of the external data we're not gonna do that we're gonna take this output and there we are going to use one of my new favorite tools per complexity so what we're doing here is we will make sure we include these because it's hard to see this but we give per complexity the persona we've created from that internal data and then we ask it to start to pair it with external data so we ask it to do content consumption habits their content preferences and format here headlines and hooks that work message and language guy topics and angles trust credibility markers content structure ravens inside examples so we do this whole thing to try to get external data and will you end up with because here's a trick right you're not going to just copy and paste we never just copy and paste we wanna get a bunch of things here which we do it does an incredible job actually it goes through here has like a good tl of your content persona then it will go through their consumption habits it has like a lot of resources for these it has their preferences what kind of content they like this is actually really good if you're creating an entire content strategy we're gonna condense this down into just the thing that i showed you which was an audience description headlines and hooks that work message and language guide topics and angles trust credibility markers so this is pretty good right who do they trust hey dave fend of the shows in there kyle lacey lacy why the hell am i in there today i love you but now you've kind of i should be in here right we all agree with that content structure write and style examples it always does like some pretty cool dashboards shows you their dashboard inside b b content preference this is great true i'm more and more people are gravitate or short from video actually ebooks right down the bottom white papers really people sold we don't white papers i don't know about that what else blogs blogs are still popular okay and so what we've done is taken all of that and we started to work with per complexity to really summarize it that's how we came up with this so we don't want the entire content strategy what i really worked on is like tell me about this audience content preferences that's the thing i truly care and we ended up with this and so the takeaway here is you have the ability to take the internal data and craft skeleton version of your ideal customer profile in terms of their content preferences and the kind of right and style the work for them and then you pair that with complexity to layer on the external research and then you work with complexity to condense that all down to this pretty great description of your audience and so why do we do this well for chat what we do is we say okay we copy and paste this and then we say to chat store this audience description in vp marketers so this is my audience right anytime i wanna craft content for this audience i just throw us our description in memory show you how this works give me the description of vp p awesome now we take our creative writing tests to see how good chat e is and we can even start a new chat because memories across chats and then we say so we're gonna generate some headlines so product is pretty easy when we do help hubspot crm and for in this case what people don't do we're gonna give with the vp of mark as our audience because now we have that stored now you can have multiple audience stored right this is how good this is and so what's gonna do is create ten headline hooks for your product for this ic now these are creative run tests it's just gonna use a different device for each right it's gonna do contrast curiosity gap meta metaphors you'll see what it does here it's pretty good and it says no buzz words it's always put no buzz words i cannot emphasize this enough they amount people who copy and paste ai and just allowed to have lots of buzz words you don't do that alright so here's ten that it's created for vp of marketing right and so what's it got to report your cfo wishes you read remember the vp of marketing really cares about proven their worth turn your marketing chaos into a single source of truth seven boardroom question you'll answer sixty minutes what did we say in the audience subscription the marketer really cared about what their board thought about mini story last quarter a vp kept their budget thanks to this what did we say in this story in the audience description they wanna protect their budget here's one for paradox grow faster by tracking fewer metrics that's a pretty great one taboo stop fake roi start showing it that's a pretty great one here's one for villain your spreadsheet is quietly killing your pipeline social proof out have forty three percent of more female proved that worth this year future cast again board meeting the next board meeting you walk in holding the win again remember for this audience that was a big thing that was important to them so this is how you start to get it really exact for your audience and what we put here is a very simple thing right no buzz words that how much better it is when it doesn't do like buzz word lingo let's do another one this one is pretty cool we're going to explain growing revenue with less metrics to our ic which is vp of marketing use an analogy from a surprise but fit and domain you choose this is for the ai your domain must be unrelated to marketing business yet to make the concept feel more tangible and memorable so again this is a really cool creative writing task so let's see what it comes up with here we call this the cross domain analogy test so growing revenue with few metrics is right running the michelin star kitchen with a trend down menu instead of offering fifty dishes you focus on eat each perfect through taste time and presentation the chef isn't checking a dozen timers or juggling endless recipes are listening to the sizzle in the pan smelling in the butter breath which they want this smith this is actually pretty good in terms of writing and it's don't know it's very good like market and piece of text clarity frees the team to execute flawlessly blah blah blah cta stop counting every number perfect the fear that feed your growth that's pretty good so this is like a fun one fine dining but again you can see it's crafted for that audience let's try this one which is one of my favorite this is going to actually create an ad using v three and eight second clip so i'm actually pretty excited to use this one so basically what it does is for hubspot crm we're going to put in again our audience because that helps us to make this more tailored to them and then it's basically going to start to create an ad for them it's a fifty two second ad because we're using v three it's gonna break it into your seven second sequential clips and it basically talks about it being paranoid to pragmatic to playful and then each clip should have a visually memorable hook and it'd be a self contained enough to stand if seen out of context right so basically let's see how good it is at k in this fifty two second ad so it's given the variable but it has definitely tailored it for this audience how hubspot turns your marketing chaos into boardroom because again the board really love knows that the markers care out the boardroom proof revenue clarity so why this works for va period marketing and gets their pain they're adrenaline and fragmented metrics under constant pressure to justify budget again where did we get all this from the audience walk to any board meeting with ind proof of marketing revenue impact what's unique advantage and it talks about hubspot unique advantage so let's see the ad here okay clip one is our para night clip there's a visual dim led office at vp scrolling through twelve different dashboards at one am i da and i will build this ad and i will do it for the next episode because i'm doing a view of three episode your board meeting is in six hours while they've really picked up in the board which number will you trust paranoid overhead shot of sticky notes spreadsheets and tangled wires bro across a desk every tool is something different and the save of those are already suspicious okay this is pretty good this is true visual programmatic calm moon and light one clean hubspot dashboard load and instantly on a screen what if every deal every dollar lined up perfectly pragmatic side by side messy spreadsheet versus hubspot clean attribution report hotspot hubspot connects your data so the story writes itself accurate and undeniable playful the vp is stride and into the boardroom drop in a single printed report in the table one number all eyes and you all smiles from the cfo playful close up of champagne cork pop slow motion you didn't just survive the meeting you owned it okay it's a little cheesy at the end i think i would make the playful and much more playful but for a first version i think this is pretty good i do think gp five is doing good creative work here gets you a first version that you could really iterate on and so i do like that and so i will work on this and i will show a clip but again the core takeaway here is to show how good this is with the audience part so this is three use cases i think gp five is much more of a creative writer a model can you copy and paste what it gives you and put it out there no but the main takeaway here is always make sure you load your audience variable into whatever content you're creating and so whatever you're creating content with ai you wanna give it the audience that you've crafted whether you're using these tactics that i've given you or you just have one already you have like a description loaded into memory and then every time you wanna create content for different audiences reference that audience and the content would be much more tailored for them you saw it in every single result works really well that's how you go and turn ai into a better content creative assistant see you on the next show

on today's show we are gonna break down how you avoid the ai content slot we're gonna show you how really great ai content is made we've got a leading expert darius lam from next joining us today let's get right into today's show okay we are joined by darius lam who is the sci founder of ne in ai content marketing system and he is gonna take us through how he has figured out to turn ai into a great content creator something i know every marketer and listener of the show truly cares about darius welcome to marketing guess great thanks kieran i thought we could start with like we wanna get into you have a really cool tool to create ai ads for cp brands and there's a bunch of things you're gonna show our audience i do think we should start with one topic we were discussing in off mike because i think it would be interested to our audience which is should your content plan today be a content plan to make your content imperfect and so we were discussing like hey we can no longer use m dashes in our text based content because that is a notorious pattern that l create and i was talking about the fact that i am like a gram power user because i cannot spell or have very good grammar but actually maybe those things make me more human and still i wonder if l can cause us to kinda go back to creating an imperfect content i'd like i wonder what your thoughts are as a person creating a content ai tool platform in this space yeah this is a really funny question because we have found that the best ways to reach our customers has been to go more direct be more authentic and to use a lot of writing tools less yeah fred so we might use these ai tools for idea radiation we might use them to help us write drafts but the actual end result has to be written by us and you know as you mentioned there's this really funny phenomenon where i used to love to use m dash yeah i still use it a lot in my like journal and stuff but these days you know i replaced those with like a double dash you know or replace it with with something else right there's some other so it it's just really funny how ai has kind of changed the way that we create content not just on the idea idea ideological side but also like to make it a little worse in a lot of ways right the problem with ai is it takes patterns that people have figured out that work and then just make them really easy replicated to the world i was doing a funny post earlier on like that everyone's linkedin feeds more gonna be filled with chat to be five high post when you're on x there's like this one that always works that i just like don't i i'm so sick of cn i'm sure kip is on ac cs which is like this guy literally shows you how to build an entire ai agent business and then it's like a ai generated one pager and you know ninety nine percent of people know excel but they're all using it wrong i just like you see these patterns old at the time and i think at some point just like as we're gonna start to tune out patterns that ai is creating an on mass and so you're gonna have to be forced to be more original than ever and i agree like i think one of the funny things is people are gonna talk about hey ai is disrupted ninety percent of old professions and i'm like it also took my m dash don't forget about the end dashes that's a you know it's a tough loss it's created the biggest arbitrage if you're like a counter culture marketer if you're just willing to do crazy like yeah you could go and just make a billboard with a bunch of typos right about it not being ai and it will blow up the internet that's our team for congrats that's a good one well it definitely work we should go do it right tomorrow could do that this is the double problem with ai kit right which is once you made something that works and goes viral now using ai everybody else is gonna copy it right and and the cost of copying is basically going to zero it's like a hamster on a hamster wheel who was like hep up on amp methamphetamine like if you can capitalize on this you know add idea right and make it like your own then obviously that's awesome for you as a brand yeah because now you're in of one right everybody's is following you i think that's gonna be cool yeah yeah i love that actually the ai causes originality to be more important in there and i do love the brand like you could imagine in san francisco kip you have a the board of like hub hubspot hubspot number one and just have a completely wrong not brought to you by ai that actually would work really well okay i do think we should get in darius to maybe give us some context like why ai content platform like why did you decide to do that that's a tricky space and then maybe give us a little bit of the story of the tool itself like what have you figured out what does it do so i mean maybe this is a great time for me to do a quick introduction to myself my brother and i you know were c cofounder founders we started next really to support cp g brands we saw that you know these brands are producing the goods that we are using every day right food to beverage to even like consumer staples but that every existing ai tool for these brands was failing them in two key ways the first is that none of the content when you talk about images and videos was actually product or brand consistent and that's like a huge deal and you know i can talk a little bit about some examples and i'm sure you know the listeners of this show will you know resonate with that and number two that we believe that this isn't gonna be solved with building like a wrapper around existing technologies so to speak right where there's a lot of folks in the space that are building these like agent workflows and things like that i think there's a ton of promise there but the real solutions have to be fundamentally technical solutions and so we spent a lot of time and effort for example to set up our own computing infrastructure overseas we've collected our own dataset set we've like built our own diffusion models at large scale to be able to help with these brands and i think the results you know you'll see will hopefully speak for themselves and you know a big part of that is like the process that we take to create this content where you can't just go to a chat box and say like hey create a lifestyle ad for my product right like that's not gonna cut it there has to be a process and our belief is that that process is you know a variant of this oo loop you know from the military right observe orient decide act and in the content space it's create distribute optimize so for us we're trying to build this tool that can help you do this whole process end to end but i think the most exciting part is the content piece and how we are able to get that correct most of the time you know i'm not saying yeah getting that you perfectly yet obviously there's a long way to go but we i think we're we're doing a little bit better you said something important there which is like we had to build some of our own models we built computer systems offshore we're not just a rapper like you're not just a interface wrapped around one of the models can you just talk a little bit about some of the hard things you had to build to get the product to be really good at the content you're gonna show us yeah and you know i think this is something that we could definitely talk about more at the end of the episode two and you know i'm excited to hear what you guys think to where the technology is going right obviously we know things are moving really quickly so like what is the future of content marketing especially in the face of this new technology but for us at next you know earlier in the year we showed the world this new model that we created called icon two it's an eight billion parameter diffusion model among the largest in the space it was able to outperform models like nvidia asana apple's airflow deep seeks janice pro on the gen eval benchmark we haven't really released it yet fully for public use due to some issues around you know generalized performance but we're definitely continuing to work on next generation versions of the model i think the biggest challenge right when you talk about like marketing and cp you get a lot of folks who are really great and knowledgeable about traditional marketing whether that be like tv whether that be social media meta ads instagram ads but sort of lack a lot of the technical sophistication to really build upon that and i think what we're really trying to do is to fuse cp expertise with novel innovations in ai so that we can bring these brands the best technology in the world and hopefully let them focus more on building great products selling those products to their customers and less time you know f with adobe express and f with like workflow tools to create content at scale and things like that basically let us do that work for you cool you wanna show us some of our audience some of the examples and then maybe we can r on the ability of ai to do content yeah absolutely alright so maybe i can tell this story as like okay what can existing tools do at the start right so as an example we basically took this bottle here which is a soap bottle and we put it through a standard workflow that you might see and read about online right which is like how do we use chat to create this kind of ad content at scale so this is an example of a result that we're able to get we got you know many more like it here's like the other one that we got here and you might think at a high level find your balance okay decent tagline but when you actually look at the product itself it's like so far away from the actual brands product that it becomes very difficult to run this kind of thing right like even something as simple as like the logo is wrong or here it says that this bottle is a hundred and forty one ounces which is like eight pounds right so this is like ten times you know larger it's saying than it is this is particularly a problem for cp g right because you can't falsely advertise your product and it's not just that this is like bad for you know the brand owners it's actually really bad for their customers it it has negative brand value so like this is pretty much the level of quality that you're gonna get if you are trying to sort of do this out of the box today right so we had put together you know a little workflow that allows us to get stuff that is a little bit higher in quality so you know this is an example of an image that we were able to put together i don't know if you can see this pop up here but this is like six thousand pixels by eleven thousand pixels so we are you know you could literally print this out and frame this on a wall if you wanted to we're able to get the logo correct the name correct of course and even all the way down to like the individual small pieces of text here at the bottom like it this here says like plus probiotics or something like that right and you know this level of fidelity is what brand owners expect of traditional photography so why shouldn't you know ai tools be able to get there too here's an example of something that actually didn't work out this could be interesting for us to continue to talk about here right which is we had put this together for a client and they had come back to us and said wait a minute darius take a look at this set of reads here in the center where you know this background read is merging in with the foreground read wait a minute like you know from a consumer angle like i would have looked at this and said okay this is basically indistinguishable from a real same but that detail matters wow right i'm being able to get that you know with the eighty percent ninety percent accuracy is i think going to be the difference between folks who are you know just trying out this kind of content on like a novelty basis versus true usage of the photographs for things like social content or ads so you know i think that this is something that is gonna be the future the quality of the content has to go up the accuracy of the content has to go up one last thing i'll add here is it's not just about the quality it's about whether or not the image itself resonates with the brand so in this image here you can see that like there are some sea urchin on the left and there's some fish on the right okay that is obviously relevant to soy sauce a brand selling soy sauce right and if you were to just kinda do this out of the box you know these generators aren't able to do that right and so that goes into the idea idea asian phase are the background colors matching your brand colors right like does the content align with what your brand is actually selling and to your customers and all of that and then obviously how do we produce this at scale real quick darius is giving you his ultimate ad framework with over twenty props so you can create the best ads at each stage in the ad creation process if you want it scan the qr code or click the link in the description now let's get back to the show so you had a framework because i wanna get into the the actual idea addition part so i think you had a framework yeah it's ida create distribute optimize yeah right that's like that four step cycle that we go through and so if you think about ai even for what you're doing like is the photo with the hard part or is the idea of the hard part i think the idea is the hard part and a lot of examples is ai idea radiation and creativity is not better than a skilled human maybe talk to us about like the idea deviation part like you talked about ed being applicable to the brand like in that picture there is that really a creative ad does that stand that in a sea of noise does it stuff people scrolling through ads i think that's actually a really hard like you've built a model your pictures look amazing i would love to go there i saw in the kip and just like print out some art and put it on my wall like rip off great artists like it's it's that level good right i can literally actually go them great art with your model and printed it i haven't put on my wall i probably would do that but the addiction part is just so hard with the eye because what it's basically looking at is train set and then coming up with like the average there are ways we can talk about that you can get more in the prompt you can definitely create a prompt that allows it to be much more creative and thoughtful but like what are your thoughts on it as a idea idea creative partner i agree with you karen entirely ai has a long way to go to replace human creativity when it comes to the idea what we have actually done is there's the real person a creative expert who's going in and and creating these prompts in these images so this isn't something that is like you literally put a prompt in a box and it just pops out right like there's real idea idea that goes behind here a little bit about that process right often what we do is we start with a mood board so we go when we look on like pinterest or instagram or other ad spy tools right to go and like figure out okay this is what competitors in the space are building this is what a good piece of like product content should look like we take that and then we use that to like on prompts so we never do one image at a time that one image that you see might be the result of fifty plus actual generations to be able to like go through different variations then you have to actually pick the one that you like and then edit it right so this is really getting down to like you know why is is so hard to do this out of the box today and why there's still a rule for i think you know the human element it's that if you were to try to just do one shot chat gp you're gonna get something that's like okay but not quite there you need to have that mood board and you need that idea deviation you need to test the variations you need to find one that works you need to edit that image you know you need to tune in the details all that to be able to get this to work as one final result that you can then post or run as an ad what i think interesting i think there are a couple things interesting about what we're talking about one throughout the history of marketing one of the core advantages have been do you have a really good creative process run by very good creative to get a great output and what we're essentially saying is like that is just as if not more important than ever in a world of ai there are a lot of people who maybe would have thought that that would have gotten less important and what we're actually saying is that's more important and the reason that's more important is because that's how you get like really deep creative density where the lighting is perfect the subtle brand attributes are perfect how it resonates with the target audience just comes through really clearly you can't do that without a rigorous process and really good creative i think what we're talking about is what ai allows us to do is to do that way faster mh and way cheaper because it's not like that read picture you showed a few minutes ago for folks watching on youtube for example right like before you would had to set up a professional photo shoot it would have been a month of planning you would have hired a really great director at photographer and you would have just done this for you know a full day of taking pictures and then went through and reviewed and edited the best ones now you can do that without all those logistics with all that lead time and that's really where the opportunity lies i think was that what you're saying a hundred percent and you know it it's significantly more than just the money cost obviously that's a big deal right like we're talking about going from five hundred to a thousand dollars of photo down to dollars per photo which is like just a massive collapse right in cost yeah but i think the flip side of what you're saying right is the timing and the opportunity cost improvement here we don't see that because the cost goes down you know that this like market is gonna shrink just the opposite because the cost is going down more brands than ever are going to be able to create higher quality content than ever at greater volume you know one thing that i'm sure you guys have seen is this proliferation of brands that run multiple social accounts i think duo does this super well with like duo f and and do it either lee and stuff like that right and we think that's the future right how can sized cp g brands run a dozen tiktok and instagram accounts where each piece of content needs to come out you know three times a week be targeted to that audience be high quality on brand that would have just been impossible you know a year ago and we think that we're getting into a future where that's gonna be really possible for these brands and everybody is gonna be able to do it and give them better access to their audiences question on that for both darius and kieran is like is it gonna be possible in a year or two to succeed in marketing especially things like social without just having ten times more content than a brand is producing today like can we talk about just the cost of content coming down the volume is likely gonna go up is that a good thing is that a bad thing our brand's is gonna get on that like big hamster wheel of just tons and tons of content isn't it only a good thing if you have the targeted options to get way more specific because a brand increase in volume if you're having to promote that through the same channel you don't have really good targeted options to like segment users into smaller audience so you can crowd content specifically for them then isn't it not just like instead of producing free posts i produce six posts but does that really matter like i think it's actually the target that really matters you can create bespoke content now for smaller groups of people i don't know what you think darius that's kinda how i think about it targeting obviously matters a lot let me see if i could provide a bit more of a you know out there perspective on this which is everything you said cure i agree with insofar is the media of today stays the same but as i'm sure you've seen with like google's genie and you know new technology that's out there what if the future of media is like virtual reality where everything is like generated or augmented reality where you're able to put pieces of content in front of people you know in widely different scenarios in that case the amount of content that a person actually consumes on a daily basis skyrocket mh and we are not yet there right when we went from like think about a tv to mobile right and that's like from like me watching you know cartoon two network on the tv to now like scrolling tiktok right like the density of content on tiktok has increased versus tv ten yeah and i think that we're not saturated future media could increase that density another ten x in that case require the technology like ai to be able to even keep up right and that could be a very interesting future you know not far from now like from working within this space and technology how far off do you think the models are to be a great creative partner in that the litmus test from me is you would have a creative idea from ai that is better than what the human could generate you know we're recording this on the thursday the seventh of august where gp five is maybe coming out in twenty minutes it's not maybe it's coming out in twenty minutes yeah it's coming in twenty minutes and so from my experience it's not as far off as we think if you know how to prompt i think there's ways to prompt that you can connect force the model to be much more creative then the average person will be able to do file like standard prompts but i'm curious like you have a human loop now because they're needed to do a lot of the creativity when do you think you do not potentially need that human the loop do you know i i would have a hard time telling you a date right but i think it's coming sooner rather than later yeah i think the key solution is what they call in context learning so obviously you know the problem with these models is that they tend to reg progress to the mean so if you just use it out of the box they give you very mean looking outputs so the solution traditionally has been to then fine tune a model based off of your use case right i think that for a lot of creative tasks that set of outputs is actually quite narrow and can be determined if conditioned on sufficient past information for example if you are a brand that's been running for three years you have three years worth of post already including data on posts that have done well versus not well so the future is probably going to be you can put all of that past knowledge into the model and let the model then learn in an in context fashion from that data to be able to generate new content that is similar to your content in your style but that's a problem i have with ais as it works to date and that's one of the things i was getting at with creative assets i think there's a couple of problems with creative assets versus other types of ai creative assets are so hard to distinguish why something works and why it doesn't work yes it's like i could put out a post and spend a minute on it and it gets like hundreds and hundreds of likes and then i put out something i really craft and spend time on that gets like three likes right it's kinda hard to like figure out why something works all of the time especially in like visuals and creative tasks where like in coding you built the app or you didn't build the app right logic science or these things they're somewhat binary that you can kinda show the model the right or the wrong whereas in like a lot of these creative assets it's a lot of like interpretation and taste whereas to your point so the way you can get around that is like well i can train the model on the good and the bad i can say we have three years worth of data all of these creative assets and these ones work well and these ones did not work well but the limitation of ai is it's just gonna give you a bunch of things that are similar to the things that work well whereas what a human can do is think of something completely different when does ai make bat leap right like because of this success i make a completely tangent gentle like leap somewhere else versus just like here's more of the same things but quite similar to what you've done in the past so we are working on this problem and i i'd actually appreciate your guys thoughts on this to see whether you think this is the right approach there is this technique called reinforcement learning right yeah they use it to train models to be good at coding because coding is an easily verifiable domain where you can have the model generate code run the code and see whether it's right or wrong exactly so what is the verifiable domain for creative i would argue it is cpm conversion rate right like that is a measurable you know know data point that is already being collected today that provides very high signal and that is non stationary right which is that it adapts to the world around you so the real holy grail here is imagine a model that is capable that is basically now hands free right that you know you might not even know why it's generating this piece of content but maybe one day it generates like yeti content why because it finds that yeti content gets the lowest cost per mile because it's really hyped up on tiktok you know that week and then the next week there's another trend that's coming out and it just adapts right today that would be a person sitting there scrolling their feeds maybe having some monitoring tools to figure out what's hot you know we've worked on pieces of content for our clients that involve like some trendy things like you know the glass asmr on tiktok the yeti trends you know all kinds of these things they get a lot of you a lot of engagement but the future is a system that can do that on its own and the only way to do that is to have some kind of verifiable domain for creative assets and we think that there is already a potential ver fire out there it's a global verifiable in the form of you know the market yep a couple things on that i think if you use cpm or conversion rates to like do that you're going to get a what a pretty standard deviation from the mean right like those conversion rates in those costs are normally pretty packed in regardless if it's speed b cc g whatever they're normally packed in in the given market pretty close and tight together and so you'll get like a standard deviation that's great you won't get the sydney sweeney american eagle app this is what i'm getting at and this is what kieran pushing at my point right you know it occurs me in this conversation we're having i think it's helpful it's like one of the negative things we've talked about with artificial intelligence over the last two years and karen i think you have said it about a hundred times in the show is hallucinations and the reliability of ai to get consistent out but the reality is when it comes to creative work we want good hallucinations yes we you wanna nation really far outlining things that are smart and based on human behavior and so i guess the push i would make if i were dedicating some amount of my time to solve this problem i don't think i would solve for metrics i would try to solve for the cycle of human behavior like the nostalgia loops the things that are gonna come back in the because all these things happen now people are run into the opposite of these things like those are the things that makes marketing magic yeah not the metrics and and which sounds funny as somebody who use obsessed with metrics this whole life but like i've learned that the other path is the better path i don't know what you guys think yeah you know i guess omni calm and public are still gonna be in business in five years yeah right you know that that they're the ones who can manage the sydney sweeney type of engagements obviously there's a big part of that which is that it's like culturally relevant so there's a whole another discussion to be had around how do you like put likeness and people in these images yeah right you know we have tried to avoid putting people in our content so far we think that there's a lot of opportunity here around like you know how do we make sure that every person in the image is like based on a real person and has their sign off you know otherwise you get a a very dystopian world very quickly where it's like these randomly generated people who have no connection to reality you know trying to sell you something right so i think that you're exactly correct kit where there has to be some tie in to like culture and that is probably going to be done through a system that can assist the human but not replace entirely by the ai yeah i i think maybe to tie this episode it up but it all it comes all the way back to where we started which is originality and you know ai for the most part is taking a bunch of these things and predict what the next thing should be because of that data whereas i think what humans can do is do the unpredictable you know and i think the best and i'm not saying the average company does not need to do this to like your point the average company actually does need you to plug in a bunch of data and then for their audience like figure out good advertisements that will work but i think at some point i wonder when ai can do the unpredictable like create an ad that stands out because it's so different from what exists it basically starts a new timeline right you have a successful ad and then you have maybe two years of variations of that ad that's like wow that thing worked and everyone tries to create different variations of it for their work and then someone comes out with something that creates a whole new timeline of ads because that ad is so original and unpredictable from what came in the past and that to me is like true originality and and creativity and think until it's not reliant on the existing training set and can actually like think about things that are unpredictable and potentially net you that creativity and originality part is gonna be hard to like figure out very much so the counter point i would say here though is that the vast majority of content is not that kind agree original guy right it's five percent maybe five percent the top five percent i agree and so i do think that there's gonna be this split where on the one side the you know highly creative trail breaking content we absolutely have a place for the poets and place so to speak yeah and this technology will also be used very heavily for the future no i totally agree i think originality is a very small part of what exists in the content space for a reason because it's really hard to be original and i think you can do a lot of good and drive a lot of results by just doing debtor i think that's totally true like better versions of what exists variations of what exist yeah awesome this was a really really cool show great show da i think for people who wanna check out your company and brand do you wanna just give them where to go and follow you follow the company yeah i'm on linkedin you can just look me up darius lam on linkedin we're also at next cp g dot com cool

alright everybody i just came off an hour long live stream of gp five the latest and greatest in the world of ai models now going to be likely the most height of the ai models and as somebody who's been a cmo for over a decade is deep into marketing and sales and had a grow a business i wanted to break down for you what i thought the highlights and the low lights of gp five are so that you didn't have to watch an hour long live plus you can contextualize them to your business so first i always think what somebody markets is a good thing to check out you know i'm a marketer i like it so i wanna pull up the product page for gp five and i'm gonna talk a little bit about what they're highlighting and kinda of what i took from the live stream alright so the biggest things about gp five to me is that gp five is here for everyone one of the big things they made a big deal of is that's available to all chat gp users including free that big big thing second big big thing is voice way way better available to everyone including free users they said hours of voice interaction for free users near unlimited voice interaction for paid users so in terms of the democrat of ai ai getting better and more accessible to everyone gp five is a big step forward in that and as a marketer what that makes me think and believe is that the amount of people using gp five a in chat gp to replace traditional search queries that they might have done in google or bing or other channels is going to go up you're gonna have more users because this model is smarter and better and it's available for free and they're gonna be using it for more search type use cases and so as a marketer i have to keep doubling down and keep focusing on how i show up on these answer engines we did a great show with asia frost that's on the channel if you wanna go check that out okay so that's kind of the democrat is that gp fives here for everybody it's here for everybody this week other than non profit and enterprise accounts are getting it this week i have refreshed my chat gp what seems like two hundred thousand times i still do not have access they're rolling out access today i assume at some point in the next twenty four hours i will have access c and i as soon as we do have access we're going to do some benchmarking and some work with it and we'll do another show but what i can do is give everybody the real quick overview and so if you look at gp five and you look at the product page the live stream literally is just finishing there's a couple of things that are interesting god are the days of the big model picking list where you have to pick gp four point five or four zero or o three or o three pro basically you're gonna do use gp five and gp five is gonna do a lot of that in the back end if you're a paid user you are gonna have like a thinking mode of gp five and for developers or people using the api there's gonna be like a mini and nano mode for like low cost high speed kind of questions and uses but the core gp five is gonna kinda go through those modes independently and reduce a lot of the cognitive load for somebody using this which again makes me think that people are gonna do more evaluation more buying with chat gp than on your website and this is a big important shift for marketers it's fast they reiterated this over and over that it's much much faster i'm excited to see how much faster it is the other thing they spend a lot of time like half the live stream was about coding and how good it is it coding how it's beating the coding benchmark and that's good i still think we are long ways away from everything they showed what essentially the big step up is is that gp five is going to be much better at what's called front coding so the part of the website you see versus like the technical back end that makes everything work and the aesthetics are much higher and so if i'm a marketer if i'm somebody running a business what i suspect i'm gonna do is build the ones of websites landing pages web assets many applications in gp five and let gp five do a lot more of the design and branding work on those assets than previous ai models and that's really going to be the stand so coding seems to be honestly the biggest step forward in this model to me the most interesting part of the live stream was around writing but writing was like literally two minutes of the live stream and the rest of the live stream was largely like coding some health some api stuff is interesting but if you didn't watch a live stream you did miss anything while i think this is a meaningful step forward it i do think gp t five is not gonna be as game changing as many people were hoping i think the hype was very high i think it is like a good meaningful step up i don't think the hype is like all the way up here but they did show a gp four zero versus gp five writing comparison and the gp five was way more empathetic way more contextual way more high taste sounded like a human actually wrote it and i think that is interesting and so i suspect if you're using chat gp for writing right now for business purposes you're gonna keep using it it's gonna get better and especially like some of the use cases that we're using it for at hubspot is to write highly personalized emails highly personalized website content that is going to get much better and i suspect you're gonna see conversion rates and marketing metrics continue to get better as these models gets better that's been our thesis all along again they talked about health and trust and safety and that's all the good stuff that's kinda not the point of this channel so i'm not gonna go into that in a deep way a couple other things that i do want to show you first of all i thought this tweet from dan z was interesting because there's a good summary of the live stream where it can write code really fast it can build like lightweight games and tutorial like the duo stocks stay right now because he did a whole learn how to speak french game in gp five so i have a tweet from dan z was really quick summary of what happened it's like it can code well and code quickly it can build lightweight games and apps so similar to what you can do in cloud artifacts except it seems like a little bit better and a little bit better at the front end side of things the writing does seem much better than four o i think it's a little better than gp four point five what i don't know until i play room with it is how big the writing leap is going to be they did a lot of small features like the voice you're gonna be able to personalize personalities so you want it to be sarcastic or brief for whatever that is going like the user experience of chat gp seems like it's gonna change a lot in gp five where it's gonna become more personal more of what you want it to be if it's still got that integration with gmail and calendar and so they're going for those personal assistant use case which is cool hey when be right back to the show but in honor of gp five dropping we've got the gp five marketing stack these are ten advanced marketing props that you should be going and using in gp five as soon as you get access to it use it to test gp five but more importantly to get better marketing results we're talking gp five is gonna be the smartest gp we've ever seen and these prompts are gonna help you do a lot competitive intelligence work to see what's happening with your customers help you process massive datasets sets to get real marketing insights all at once and to give you really great marketing strategy recommendations for your business if you can get it right now click the link in the description below now back to the show i think probably the biggest takeaway for me is that the front end design and ux and user experience reasoning a decision making is much better in gp five than any model i've seen which again has me thinking marketers are gonna be spending a lot of time prototyping and building v ones in canvas in gp five after it comes out the other interesting thing is our friends over at lovable have released that they have access to gp five and i think there's a take where like g five and canvas is replacing a lot of the use cases and lovable what lovable is gonna have to do is be much more integrated into databases and getting this code and publishing it making it easily accessible on the internet so you're seeing the whole internet the ai internet internet's it's about to get upgraded as gp five comes out so those are a few of like the quick things that we're seeing with gp five those are a few things that they covered on the live stream here's my take i don't want this video to go on forever and ever because you're trying to get the skinny on cheap five it's good i think it is going to be a meaningful step up from o three and o three pro i think especially the fact that it's in free is a big deal i think the fact that it's gonna be incrementally better at coding and writing especially front end coding it's a big deal for marketers and i suspect the average marketer is gonna using chat she'd more was it as good as i thought it was going to be no it was not i am not here mind blown basically being like oh my gosh the internet's is a completely different place today than it was no i think we are on a steady trajectory of ai getting better and i think a lot of the ai apps are already using like hubspot the like as gp five gets integrated they'll get better and that's awesome and that's like a great thing for all of us who are working and doing marketing doing sales the truth is i'm not here talking to you like oh my gosh everything is about to change no everything is continuing to change along the trajectory that it's on and i think that's the important thing so my advice is regardless of what chat cheap account you have get in there use chat gp five see what use cases for your business it's actually good for i'm gonna do that same thing kieran and i are gonna do that together we'll be back with our top use cases our actual review but this is a quick reaction to what they actually announced and promoted there's two last little things i wanna make sure i hit one they had a little subtle apple jab in the video that i loved which was a team of phds in your pocket it's a play a thousand songs in your pocket the original ipad tag line i like that i'd love kind of you know johnny i've worked at opening now i imagine there's like a little jab i thought that was both good marketing and a little good inside jab and joke second thing that i thought was kinda swept under they didn't talk a lot about is that gp five is going to be able to consume video and see what you're doing on the screen is what they said it they can actually do that and do that well that will be very very important to how we use these models and open up new use cases especially from a marketing perspective so i think that's one of the things i'm gonna be looking at as gp five rolls out and if it's good we'll probably end up doing a full show on that so those are the two things that i don't think people are talking about hardly at all that i thought were interesting kinda cool so that is gp five it's rolling out to everybody over the next day or so so keep checking your chat gp and we'll be back with our full hands on review very soon thanks everyone see you on the next steps episode

on today's show we're gonna show you how to save over an hour a day with an app that makes typing obsolete you're never gonna wanna type a git i've got the world's leader with voice ai alan go from willow voice with us today let's get to today's show alright on today's show we have a very much under underutilized under talked about aspect of ai you know you hear a lot about large language models and browsers and you hear some about audio but you rarely hear about voice ai outside of things like siri and alexa and today i'm with alan who is founder of willow voice who is pioneering a lot of those kind of voice ai use cases and so allan welcome to marketing it's grain thanks for being here hi chip thank you so much i'm really excited to be honest yeah and so alan one of things that i think is interesting is when somebody decides to like dedicate all of their waking moments to something and you've decided to do this with voice ai and so i was wondering if you could just help people understand like why why is voice ai important and how is it going to become just a part of how we all work and live on a day to day basis so my journey really all started when we were building in health care and so we were pivoting a lot of health care and every day we were interacting interfacing a lot with doctors they were telling us that they were spending all their time work account documentation for the patients you know they're spending their weekends they were spending after clinic hours work on this documentation so when ais scribes came along they said this was the best invention they've ever seen since yeah chad they suddenly got all their weekends back they were looking forward to clinic is again rather than being worried about them because they no longer had to spend all their time on this documentation and when i saw this it felt like the new way to work with voice and also around this time i was visiting some family in china i noticed that everybody that uses this app called wechat and they love to send voice memos and now if you know sending voice memos it's really apple to send these voice memos but really painfully long to listen to it stinks to get a voice memo if there's no like transcription and you just get the raw voice file exactly brutal so it click to me that you know voice is the fast way to communicate dots to paper but text the fastest way to process information and that's why if we could just find a way to combine the two which is now possible with voice ai and a speech colon polished and ready to use text on your computer then the keyboard itself copy necessary which is what we unlocked at willow willow is a voice dictation app that lets you write anywhere computer you can think about it like apple's built in dictation if they were actually fast accurate and intelligent good summary exactly yeah and people love using it for anywhere from like email slack messaging prompting ai and more okay so i'm a will user it's been a game changer my workflow i sit you a prep email for the show today just using willow me like thirty seconds so it'll taking me ten minutes before massive time saver gonna do some demos gonna talk through some of the use cases that you're gonna wanna think about adopting with we'll lower any voice ai product for that matter what of my thesis here alan that i would wanna talk with you about is that ai is gonna make like content formats like obsolete like there are better formats for certain things than others and what i'm positive is that in a year or two we will just get the perfect format of information in whatever like modality it needs to be text audio video whatever and it seems like voice ai dictation is gonna be like a big part of that like do you buy that is that like a what's gonna happen yeah one hundred percent and we're already seeing voice ai changed so many modalities and just how people work in general because in the past where historically voice ai has never been something that has word if you think about tools like as you're mentioning at like source siri yeah they've sucked because they're inaccurate they've been clunky they've been terrible interfaces but of course with you know ai that's made voice finally intelligent in context aware we have infrastructure to support that at a low cost in real time and we have you know transcription actually just to be accurate in general it's actually opened up a whole new playing field of use cases and it's unlocked a whole new level of voice productivity for people in general yeah i think that's the thing it's like what you're trying to tell people is like okay the technology is actually finally here i know you tried to do this stuff over the last five to ten years and it's been terrible yeah and i will tell you somebody who's been using it it is actually finally here not only is it accurate but man is it lightning fast now yeah that's the thing that's blown me away it was i was like oh i can see with these large language models that that we can get to accuracy but the raw speed is so impressive to me yeah like it's wild yeah and it's only going to get better over time as you know these things get instant if not near instant it already feels that way by the way for somebody who started using this more and more so if the technology is here now walk us through like what are the core ways that people should be using it i wanna talk about that and want you to show a some demos i wanted to spend a few minutes helping people understand how they can transform how they're working maybe do marketing doing sales like if you're a sales rep sales emails with voice dictation is like a game changer for example yeah a hundred percent so i'd say the biggest use case that i've seen has been async word communication so we've seen people handle all of their work communication that's slack email personal messaging all of those things that they typically in the past have to sit down type on their keyboard you know right out that message they now just speak to a voice ai or like a dictation tool like willow and they speak up all their thoughts and that that ai transcribe what they say if formats it understands the direction that they're trying to go to tone the style everything and it writes it up instantly four them in front of them and so that's a massive productivity boost to tech leaders for example yeah who have tons of work communication or busy professionals in general who have tons of communication to be doing because voice is so much more natural fluid and obviously it's faster than you would be typing and just saves them so much time the second big use case that i've seen is with ai prompting now i know that you show a lot of workflows and prototypes built by ai tools like chad or claude yeah so i think this is a really neat productivity more life hack tip for the audience next time when you're prompting ai don't even just type it just use a dictation tool can you pull up willow below and just show us how that works this is my forever use case that's why i'm being selfish but you are probably better at the b it's like using the chat gp app and willow to just get stuff to an l in the most efficient way has been life changing for me exactly exactly so for example i can prompt claude here and this is already what engineers and power users are doing already because if you thinking about what prompting is yeah if you're front trying to build app for example you're explaining to a really smart friend like claude what the technical specifics look like what the ui with the ux look like and your essentially just writing really long paragraphs to a smartphone cloud to build it out for you and obviously would you rather be typing out this paragraph or smartphone org beast rather speaking that so for example i can just press the function key in my keyboard and just be like hey i wanna build a really cool reminders app that allows me to put all the things that i need to reminded of on my day to day and whenever i finish one of my tasks or or whenever i'm reminded item i want there to be like balloons and confetti showing everywhere and i want the ui to be green looking with a green type of brand let's see how that turns out and you can see in a matter of seconds it's so fast exactly yeah what would've have taken me long the type i can just speak that out i can brainstorm and brain dump and put that all my yeah but before you even like run that what happens to me and i think happens to lock people occupy and it's like he's just kinda get sick of typing yeah like yes i have more instructions i wanna give but i'm just kinda like sick of it and because of that i'm just going to stop here and i think what i've found and i think what you found is like when you're just talking you can just like just sit there and talk for a minute or two and get much better details and prompt and the hack here is do exactly what you just did and then have it turn it into the right prompt for you so you can give it all the context then it'll reform it into a great prompt and you can run through and you can get to that spec and like basic version of the app in like minutes exactly and i really like how you said that it removes initial inertia of like creativity tips because we've also seen a massive use case for content creators in general so we all know that feeling when you're sitting on front of a blank doc and you're trying to come up with ideas creative juices to write maybe website copy or social media posts or all different types of things you know typically you'd have that initial inertia typing but with voice ai you can just simply speak with on your mind you can brainstorm out loud and that ai will you know clean it up formatted it rewrite it bit better for you and so we've seen tons of people write everything from like linkedin posts to website copy with voice ai and they love using it to brainstorm yeah there's a song writer jason his spell who i love and his thing about creativity and writing is that you get it all out and then you edited it later you know you've whittle it dale and once all the information out and most of us don't write like that right we're in our head we write we are editing in our head before we get it out but we talk like that mh right and so it might sound strange but just expressing the ideas in a different actual way can get you better ideas exactly let me show you another use case with emails as well this is what you know tons of busy professionals and tech leaders use every single day and sort of the moment that makes it magical for many people so for example if i wanna send out an email i could just press a hockey on my keyboard and just hi john i recently discovered a product called willow and i think it's super cool there's so many different things i could do one it can automatically format my email two it can automatically correct my words three it even cuts out my filler words i think it's super cool best allen and in a matter of seconds it comes out and there's a couple of things to note it automatically formatted my greeting it automatically formatted my signature it even understand that i was trying to create a list and it breaks that down in the perfect structure another cool thing to note is that it knows that i like to use an exclamation mark at the end of my emails and i understood that i have that personal style choice and it put that in and alan it knew because you were in gmail that you were doing an email and it needed to be formatted in this way is that right i just wanna make sure i'm understanding every everybody watching is understanding right yes so exactly so it's context aware so it's able to understand that if for an email it should be style like an email if i were in slack for example it'll understand my context and write it as if writing a slack message and it'll be that style that's super cool you must fly through email man exactly and you know what if this style didn't work for me i could just highlight this text and i can say hey willow can you make this a lot more casual and you can see now that it just changed what i wrote into a more casual language which is way better than going in and just editing it as we'll user i did not know i do that i'm gonna do that in the key shirt that's pretty cool yeah and so a lot of people for example will go back into chat tier claude to maybe rewrite an email more formally or more tasks yeah it replaces a lot of that context switching between apps you can all i'll do it all one place with voice i can just generate the entire email myself for example if i wanted to say like hey willow can you write an email to john in a pretty casual tone and tell them i'm gonna be late for the meeting and you can see just like that we'll look and just generate that email for me understand my writing already so i could just do it that's awesome email is something we all have to do and that's way better way to do it and i've been starting to do it but you just gave me a couple pro tips that i did not know that i could do so i'm a bump for that yeah ai agents are transforming marketing they're changing it as we know it and the old ways of marketing they're gone the new ways are really agent first ways and kieran just wrote this amazing blog posts about how to think about marketing and do marketing in an agent first world in a world where agents might be buying from agents or agents are facilitating ways people can buy and there are these three very specific changes that he outlined and that if you're in marketing today and you are not clear what these changes are you're missing the boat you're gonna get left behind and we don't want that we wanna help you stay ahead of the pack and so you wanna read kieran post right now you can click the link in the description below that is gonna give you the blueprint you need to do marketing in an ai first world okay so what we wanna do now is actually show you how quickly you can iterate through like a marketing idea marketing concept alan i know you and the team voice just launched personalized dictation where you can kinda personalize how the dictation style is gonna be could you maybe just show us how you would go and make a product page for that feature using like willow and claude and show how quickly you can iterate through like in this marketing use case yeah of course so opening up claude here let's just see how fast can be with this right i can start dictating and say hey so pretend that you're like a really smart and expert big expert in in in writing website copy i'm creating this new product page for our landing page that's gonna be highlighting our personalization feature for context willow is a voice dictation app that lets you write anywhere in a computer you can think about it like an apple built dictation but smarter faster and more accurate and intelligent and so some of the things i wanna highlight on this page with that personalization it it allows us to product the dictation tool to you know match style and tone and writing over time so that you don't have to go back pure keyboard board have to make those edits let's see that with an initial prompt and see what clock can give us here so that was literally like less than a minute to get a pretty good creative direction like this is what you would tell like a marketer or if you were hiring somebody to do it right yeah so i see now that's what is it creating it's creating an artifact around the page yeah looks like right now so what i do love about claude and just a quick reminder if everybody's is claude is really good at the writing and creative use cases and i do think it does a great job of not just coming up with good quality but also packaging it these artifacts in a way that's like easy to kinda review and understand and also cloud loves to code so it's right in a bunch of code and everything for us because what you said you set a landing page you didn't even say landing page copy so it's taking you at like oh and he needs like a whole landing page not just some text right yeah oh there you go and we got the the landing page and we got like the structure of it down it's even in your brand colors got it so close right yeah it's see the design fidelity is not great but we got essentially a like v point one of a landing page in about you know two minutes yeah and you know of course maybe if i want to change different things yeah i can be like hey so i actually want to add a couple more things to highlight on this product page you know i wanna emphasize that the product is private and secure so that people can use it without worrying you know i also wondered how we can make this page a bit more modern and sleek i think it's it doesn't look that great yet can you make some changes there what i love about that is that that is like what every founder ever would say about something it's like you're mastering founder feedback already it's like super marketing critical as somebody who's done marketing for founders it's like it's it's a tough game but now it install goes to claude and it's great so i think for folks who may have never seen like a voice say app you have on your machine running a standalone alone app that's will voice and then if you are in claude or you're in slack or you're in imessage whatever you're actually working in you're just holding down a function key and talking and it's basically doing the dictation in the willow of voice app but also putting the text in the pain that you're working in directly right because that was like kinda counterintuitive for me at like the first few times i did it so while i'm bringing it up yeah so exactly willow is an app that you install on your computer so it's at the system level where it understands like your accessibility it can paste text anywhere in computer and result it works anywhere on your computer yeah so you gave your creative direction on the landing page i gotta say it's a lot better there's a lot v two landing page was like way better yeah the first part is pretty sleek actually yeah it's pretty sleek it hit your security concerns and even decided to make like a creative choice to make them green and like and call them out which i i think it's interesting it's like the subliminal like green color tones yeah and again what really managing me in the beginning was just the website copy which is great here yeah exactly and so what's really cool is that you can get here quick with ai myself and here we've done tons of shows on creating landing page and copy and everything with ai we got here faster with voice ai though we got here in like five minutes versus like ten fifteen twenty thirty minutes which has been my experience previously because you can just get through the iteration cycles faster because like what happens when i'm not using voice ai is i'm reviewing a page like this and i'm thinking about it yeah and then i'm thinking a little bit more about it than i'm typing and literally all you did was just provide the voice over to your review in real time and that allowed us to save a ton of time yeah it's just like how i'd speak to a really smart friend it's saves so much time to just speak to them with my words rather than having to type long paragraphs to them telling them what i want to do it's not like the eighteen hundreds were writing long letters to each right yeah exactly okay now let's look at the willow app because i want people would to understand like what's actually happening because i imagine most people watching show today has probably never used any type of voice ai yeah let me show you so you can see i've i've dictated a lot of words yeah you're almost at a hundred thousand words dictated i i have nowhere close to you i think i'm like five thousand or something yeah and the thing is i also have multiple accounts so i think my is actually like closer to five k i bet it's probably true but you can see here that the will app is actually made to be super simple yeah and easy to navigate because the thing is with most dictation tools in the past they've always been clunky and hard to use experiences that i've been hard to navigate and hard to figure out how to use i can remember dragon dictation specifically it's like you have to watch our longer tutorials to be able even to start using dictation it's crazy and they like to sell these like dvds or tutorials around on how to use it so with willow we've really try to change our experience to be really simple and easy to understand from the beginning so again you see here there's only really three section you have to care about the home section the dictionary section for adding specific niche terms mh that willow or might not be spelling correctly and then of course the personalization page that gathers your insights to eventually use them when you're for example writing in super you're writing email willow now knows to add a period to separate india's rather than m dashes because it knows i don't like to really use m dashes dash or knows how to spell a specific name correctly these are insights that game just by me dictating and me making those edits to my keyboard if i don't like it it it learns over time so that doesn't make that mistake again but you can see here it's really easy navigate where the user doesn't really have to customize much you know they don't have to customize my prompts to make it right better they don't have to go in their settings and change different models or anything it's just the most premium and simple to use product right now to create that magical experience of dictation and write anywhere in your computer got it and if you go back to home i didn't want this to like go past people all of the stuff we've done on today's show for example that went directly into claude which is some of the use case we was it's also here in this app what's happening is everything's always gonna be in willow voice but whatever other app you're working in while you're holding that function key dictating it it's going to auto put the text there instead of you having to copy and paste every time right exactly yeah which i did not understand the first couple times i was like wait it could do this that's magical yeah it saves the transcripts locally in the computer so you know if you're ever dictating something and you lose it for example you can always go back your history and copy and paste it put it right back you can also be transcribe it or look back at it for history anyways that's pretty cool i mean i would also say like you could actually keep an amazing personal diary just summarizing your day one minute every day and just like having it auto save into like a google doc or anywhere like would be incredible just a random thought that i just had okay so if you think about some other use cases i'll give you some other use cases i've had it's like if you're a marketer would do marketers have to do lot they had to do presentations a lot you can actually just record your rough draft of your talk track and then use that to basically generate slides with an ai slide builder like gen spark or gamma or to create an outline and like that would have just been impossible for you would have done a zoom recording you would have gotten the recording you would have done the transcript you would have then put that into chat gp instead make an outline and instead you can just do that way faster which is really cool exactly alan talk to me about note takers chat gp recording there's a lot of voice stuff out there what's best for what when do you use a dictation thing like willow or one of the others that are out there versus like chat gp recording or a note taker that type of thing so odd bucket chat mitsubishi record feature into the same category as like an apple built dictation or something like that where they focus more heavily on transcribing that text rather than understanding what you're trying to say and that's the key part which makes willow so great it's because it has this extra ai piece that interprets what you say so if you really want to be able to use voice to unlock productivity in in in so many different use cases like your email or slack messaging or prompting ai or just communicating or or writing things you really want that ai to be able to understand how you style your tags so you format things how you write your text in the direction where you're trying to go and that's where willow really shines and even for a use case like ai prompting where the style formatting doesn't really matter will it still better just because the pure speed i mean it's three times faster than built dictation tools yeah or or or tragedy record feature and of course having it on your keyboard as a hockey and that speed combined with it it really keeps you in that flow state when you're trying to come up with new ideas or even prompting ai tool yeah i agree and note takers are much more like group conversation stuff or is that how you think about them that if you're gonna have a big meeting where you're in person with multiple people then you need like a note taker kind of ai application versus voice because you got a lot of voices what matters then is the context of the conversation and who is who and who's saying what right yeah i'd i'd separate like a note taker like granola versus the dictation tool yeah because a note taker is sort of listens and transcribe describes what you say and then after the end of the meeting it turns out a summary whereas dictation tool more like real time it does like the use cases where you'd be maybe writing an email or sending a slack message that requires you know fast latency and formatting and understanding how you're writing what i have found with ai tools in general is that the more focus they are the better they are and what you have is a lot of people using note takers for a lot of different things for example and it's really good for what you just said and ai voice dictation apps like willow and others are like it's really good one on one if it's you and you're trying to get your ideas out communicate get through the path of work you're trying to do that is far in away the best most efficient path right in versus like recording zooms or using note takers or any of the other kind of voice ai products that are out there yeah a hundred percent okay so what we've talked about today is like using voice ai i had to save a bunch time how much time do you think it actually saves i imagine you guys have done a bunch of research like what does it get you back in doing this yeah so if you just looked at my dashboard it says that my words per minute when using dictation is a hundred eighty and most people are at a way faster i think on average when people are using dictation it's a hundred eighty plus two hundred words per minute right and more and i imagine it's a lot fast when you're prompting ai and you have a lot of ideas in your head maybe peer engineers brainstorming and brain dumping so when you compare that to the average typing speed of people in the world it's forty words per minute so that's literally a four to five times increase in speed and productivity and time saved just by using dictation rather than having to type things out yeah if you are somebody who does a lot of email slack messaging writing like it's gonna save you like an hour plus a day right a hundred percent just the the raw math of that backs into that exactly yeah we talk a lot about ai productivity but it's like kinda of hidden productivity like this is actually real productivity because you can actually measure it because it's just making the stuff you already have to do in your day to day job much much faster which may seem a little less flashy to some people but is actually just way more important yeah and not only does it save time it makes you feel better doing your job as well because imagine going through a hundred emails where you can just speak through them right i mean to type all those out so there's not only this actual time saved but it actually just makes you feel better from your mood better yes like the whole aspect of doing it it's better yeah you know like i always make it a kid of like when you're driving you're singing along with the song like you just feel better because it's like i'm communicating i'm getting some stuff out there it's like a little better as somebody who's been using it i think it surprised me it's like oh it's kinda nice to just not sit by myself quiet not saying a word for an hour at this desk and instead like feel at least like i'm almost talking to the person i'm sending a slack two or an email to or whatever right yeah yeah okay so we went through some of the big use cases we're gonna save a bunch of time you can use it to get ideas into l to review marketing materials with l much faster to do kind of any of the async messaging you to do email slack those types of things any other advice for folks when it comes to voice ai times they should not use it like what be kind of your closing advice here right now i say voice ai it works better for very repetitive workflows like you know messaging email prompting ai in the past i would say that it doesn't work as well for things like personal messaging because there's so much so much more style needed but we just you know obviously release the new personalization feature that actually makes that better if it is a lot better now so you can like text messaging and things and still sound like you you know if you don't use periods or different terms of formatting and text messages you know i actually really just wanna say that voice ai can't replace everything on your entire keyboard and you're typing workflow and that's sort of the vision that we're headed towards which is wild to think about how much less do you think you type now are you typing like a hundred percent last fifty percent last twenty percent less like what do you think you're at i'd say i'm typing ninety percent less wow okay so actually still right now us that will have found us to we still handle you know all of our customer support cases yeah and we get you know fifty emails every single day with different questions or maybe they have a problem and i'd say the biggest life hack for us has just been using our own product willow to be responding to those emails right and we're able to do that so quickly and still do it ourselves and still have time because we're using dictation got it as somebody who doesn't love typing i have found the cultural change of getting used to dictation is real it has taken me a while to like adopt and really get in the habit of it and i know there's probably some he out there on terms of like is this technology actually ready i think we've shown today that it is and i will tell you in my uses at least with willow and i know there's whisper there's bunch of other products out there too that people are using it's like they're generally have gotten good and i think to your point the biggest challenges in understanding the very personal context that you might have with one person versus a different person right and then i think you have gotten down that path of personalization and that'll it seems like keep getting better and better the last topic here is like what's next what are the things that need to happen for dictation voice ai to really be amazing be mainstream you think mh so when we're just thinking about the technology itself it's obvious gonna get better yeah i was gonna get better and that's gonna allow for you know infrastructure that's gonna support instant if not near instant latency we're gonna see bigger context windows that's gonna allow for voice ai tools to have deeper integration into your apps and workflows to be able to better understand you and better interface with your entire life and obviously that's a direction directional willow is headed towards as well but i think the most exciting part for us as the team is just thinking about the user experience layer of voice as a dominant interface in the future yeah because when you think about every new you know change in human computer interface whether that's the mouse in the keyboard and then it was touch every single change has opened up a whole new design language for how we use computers when you think about touch we had like scroll gestures we had pinch in pinch out to zoom and zoom out we have even these like three lined hamburger menu items yeah none of these existed before and it wouldn't have make sense at all even for a mouse and keyboard right so when we think about voice as the next primary interface we think about what could that entire user experience be and it's gonna be entirely new i mean a couple questions which we have in our head or like our abbreviation is gonna exist when you type those out to people when it's just just to say that our emojis are gonna exist when voice is gonna be so good that an interprets your tone and and what you're trying to say before you even sort of send that out right right and what is the output of that going to look like when you can add you understand the tone of what you're saying and so we think about all these different things that are gonna change as voice becomes a dominant interface it's gonna be completely new user experience and we're just excited for the future to be honest yeah and so if i'm a marketer out there or i'm a founder and i'm listening to it's like oh i can save some time with voice say i that's like that's my immediate here now right i think what we're saying is in the future the modality of how people communicates gonna change significantly and user experience around that's gonna change significantly i think especially like if you think about it since the dawn of websites they've just been hands on keywords right like we don't really talk to websites we're we will start talking to websites yeah right no and you're seeing that start to happen a little with a few of the ai sites but i think in a couple of years that just can be commonplace there will be some use cases of the web browsing experience that will be voice led versus you know hand or typing or or or clicking right that's pretty wild and so i think if you're a marketer you're a business owner you wanna keep an eye out for the trends and the evolutions of user experience it's gonna happen as this and the other ai technologies get better and kind of shift that user experience i think that's the right call out to make for everybody and exactly because typing was honestly just you know a temporary solution for humans to be able to in interact with our computers as we think about you know the development of ai and these speech systems we're going towards a direction where a computer will have the same fluency a human fluency and understand it just as you would be when you're talking to another person when you think about that it's gonna complete change sort of the interface of computing as a whole it's my way when to think about i suspect that this is the first of many shows we'll have over the next year two on the topic of voice and alan i really appreciate you coming on giving all of our viewers a breakdown of what the heck it is some things they can do now and some things look out for in the future thank you so much today for joining us on marketing screen thanks so much kim awesome we'll see everybody real soon on our next episode

on this episode we are going to go into something that everyone wants to know how to do and that is marketing how the do you even do marketing in the world of ai everything is changing so much if we were gonna build a marketing plan from scratch this is exactly what we would do with all the plays and the actual ai tools we would use that's what we're gonna cover in this show so kip are you excited to talk a little bit about marketing on one of the show it's been a while look i what everybody do know first of all it's been a little while since karen and i've even been together on a pod yeah hasn't been wild and there will be a couple weeks where we're probably got some more solo pods but you and i talk to founders and ceos and everything honestly most days of our lives and we are getting this question like how to hell you even do marketing now right everybody's like this has changed like what does my team look like what strategies do i do i'm not getting me traffic from google my ad prices are going up what the heck do i do and i think we just felt compelled here to just try to take a few minutes calm everybody down give everybody some tactical practical things that they can go to things that we're doing right and that we're finding value from and getting more and more value from as we're learning them right right and i actually did have this did you see the microsoft job report for ai what's gonna be lost and what's not gonna loss no i missed though these are the jobs that microsoft believe will be most impacted by ai the reason i'm showing this is for all of the market tiers you're not on the list so basically all the high volume entry level white color jobs are on here nothing around market advertising sales agents web developers are on here but there are the bottom half of the list yeah they're in the bottom half what's the library science teachers post secondary cheeses these are the ones that it believes ai has most applicability to to be able to do these things i'm struggling with the hosts and hostess like they believe that robots are gonna ai is says like humanoid robots concierge ai is not just digitally ai but they're talking about ai enabled robot the humanoid robots these are the ones ed release that are kinda safe so i could be a message therapist there's a new robot massage place in boston is there yeah would you let a robot massage for sure it would i think it's better than a person right that could be the start of the terminator don't robot those wild i mean i'll try anything once look one of the things karen that i think you and i are coming to right now is that if you're a marketer your job's not like going away because of ai and so you should like take a breath and feel a little bit of piece about that but i think you and i also are seeing and we believe that the best marketing in the world is gonna be done with humans in partnership with ai right right it's not gonna be just ai or it's not just gonna be humans the humans are using ai they're gonna win the marketing results game yeah i think the thing i took away from that list is there's not a lot of creative jobs on it which is great totally i know ai can do creative tasks but one of the things to think about is what ai has already surpassed humans on and what has happened to those things so let me give you a good example i think it was maybe twenty years ago that humans started to and people are gonna scream me if i'm wrong in the comments but i think it was like fifteen twenty years ago that where ai was first able to beat a human and chess yes and so you would say okay well ai has nice surpassed human in chess and so d factor facto we probably would not want to do that anymore and actually chess has never been more popular it's the most popular it is ever been so the fact that ai was better than the human at that thing the not slow that craft down i think there's a lot of examples of that where ai maybe surpass certain people in creative tasks but people want the thing from the human right i think that really matters for a lot of the content we create i think we've talked about things moving towards personality led content where you really think about not just the content but who's giving you that content i think it's why we believe that most brands will have some sort of creator part to their content team doing that content which we have but i think in a lot of cases human creativity plus the ai assistant is where mark will end up mh and that's what we are going to show you here is like the ai marketing and playbook if we were going to build a ai marketing and playbook from scratch we had to go into a company we have to start today what exactly would we do and we're gonna go through six things that would be part of that playbook and i would say this is a very abbreviated playbook right this is like the list of the first new things we would start doing right right like we'll have more comprehensive stuff in the future but this is like if you're just like hey i wanna go from the old way of doing marketing to a newer way of doing marketing that's gonna be more effective in this new ai world here are the right places to start right and the stuff to start learning right and the stuff to start having tools to help you around right so i did the lovely graphic i was up late last night i was trying to get chat v image jen to do this i could not do it so i reverted it to canvas which is another good example of where these ai tools fall short have you used cam with claudia no we talked about this i just think the ability to edit in the l for a lot of creative assets is just not there yet correct i just didn't know if claude could give you a better first pass in cam faster i should try that i was gonna try it and chat and i just reverted it to my old ways good example of like you should always try the new thing i should have started there alright the first thing is non controversial it is ai search it is something that we have made a big bet on i think you want to grow share a voice in l we can talk about the fact that this is share of voice and not conversions which is a whole thing people are struggling with whole bag of works we can tell you some things we had asia on this show you should go back and watch that show around how to do ai search we talked about l optimized niche pages so instead of having one product page that's optimized for like three to five keywords which is the old google search way you con within an ai assistant so you ask lots of questions in different ways and so instead of having one product page you actually need to have lots of variations of your product page for all of the ways that people can ask questions about that and i think that's one of the things that we found works pretty well that into citations yeah would you say citations here what we're talking about ai search many people watches this are probably hearing about for the first time what the heck of share of voice what is a citation and what's the real business value of ai search yeah maybe we just touch on those three things for us this is great so share voice is would be music to all brand marketers ears that we have a performance marketing channel now being measured against the a brand match trick so our performance marketers will have to deal with the cfo asking hey like is this actually having any impact but share voice is basically how many times is your product given in an answer to a query related to your product or service so basically what you do in these tools is i will go in and i would say okay for our crm we're gonna upload a hundred different questions that people may ask that your trigger an answer that includes our product and then we would say added of those hundred how many times did we appear versus our competitors and that's some way to get towards your share of voice so it really is how visible am i for the questions that i care about okay so that's share voice what are citations and then citations are is your proctor service mentioned with the key phrases in that question that you want to appear for right so citations are for us how many times did our crm get mentioned alongside great for small businesses or how many times is that our crm get mentioned along great enterprise features for large companies and so you want to really care citations am i get mentioned and trusted sources for the things that i want to be known for in the ll so when someone's asking questions about these things there's enough c citations about your product which means that you get mentioned with those words in lots of different sources and the l goes oh cool i know hubspot a great answer for that hubspot crm great answer for that because i've seen it in so many different places mentioned for a great crm for small businesses and the thing to think about there is these l m's like open ai gemini and claude actually have certain preferences for which sites they trust more than others it's not like google where google owned all of the kind of search queries and they basically looked at links and domain authority these l really have partnerships with different sites or relationships with different sites so they trust different sites more than the others right and i think that's an important thing to know is whatever l you are trying to appear in you should really find out what are their most trusted sources to understand if your product or service should appear in the answer and i think this is a wild stop here that like by twenty twenty seven it is estimated that ninety five percent of old b b buyer journeys will start on an l so this is why you wanna make that bet today yeah i i think that you have no choice but to make a bet to focus on search right in an ai first world it doesn't mean you completely abandon traditional google search right but you have to start moving some of your time and effort to this new evolving way that search happening exactly so i think this one great tools x funnel is a tool called use bar dot ai basically you can do a bunch of things in open ai chat to help you build all these different optimized pages alright next up this is my favorite pastime you love ai video baby so the tools here you have a tool called x funnel and so what x funnel will allow you to do is show your visibility in these l so all the different l m's you can see how visible you are you can see your share of voice you can see how the things that you're doing are increasing your share of voice over time a really great tool we're are a customer there's one called use bear dot ai that i caught up with the finder very recently it's a very very cool tool again very similar to x funnel they have a couple of differentiation that they can do one of the things i find fascinating as they do is they take a snapshot of the answer every day to a certain query and what you can see is how often the l m's change their answer like just suddenly but they're never given back the same answer each and every time which i think is super important these query map and l m's this is basically you can find tune chat and claude to actually help create these l m optimize niche pages and so they are the tools that can really help you do ai search alright let us get into master short from content so i think this that is wild sixty five percent of b b buyers prefer short from content to learn about products and services which you would really think about as a metric for b right totally you will normally not associate this with b to b and so i think a big part of this is how you can grow influence and text and video using an ai and so i wanna go through a quick example of what i have been built in v three to show you how cool these tools are and it is a opener to an incredible up and common movie called a timeless marketer so let me just bring it up just over to overdose ke in love with ai video tools they're his favorite thing in the whole world right now if i could just go and do this full time i actually would right now it's like bringing in all my wildest dreams to life alright so what i will say is v three is a google tool a video tool that allows you to create eight second clips and so i'm gonna actually tell you how managers to create a twenty four second click i'm actually trying to get a five minute mini movie together there's a lot i've learned here about using v three over the last week the big thing here is like figuring how to keep the character consistent across clips is not easy because that was one of the things i really figured i'd but how freaking good is this so good v three it's so good i think people need understand is like you just typed texting in and it generated these videos and you edited the videos together we would do a whole episode zero three because i'm gonna to i'll a five minute and i'll tell you everything i learned but like you have to actually build character prompts that's how i've done that so i build a detailed character prompt and then every time you create a new video you insert the character prompts so you could build basically a prompt library of characters who appear in the movie and then anytime you want them to appear in a scene and you would just like add that prompt so there's a bunch of like insanely cool you can do but that's why i think for me short from content is probably the thing that i'm gonna spend all of my time on oh what because i think it's how the internet is going to work because you not think that like we're being taught as internet users to just consume short from content over anything okay so here i would reframe it just a smidge i think tomorrow recording with allan go who is the founder of willow which is like a voice ai app karen and at whole conversation with him and he was talking about you know how voice is really good for like dictation and creating stuff it's really bad and slow at consuming stuff yes and i think what the internet's gonna move to is you are going to be in the perfect modality to get the information as clearly and as quickly as possible right whether that's text whether that's voice whether that's video what happy right and because that before voice and video were so much more expensive than text we just use text for most things and now we're gonna play a big rebalancing and you're gonna see a huge growth in voice and a huge growth in video especially short form video so right when you say that's how the internet's gonna work i kinda think of it as like yeah the internet's gonna get like fully optimized and for the internet to be fully optimized there's going to need to be a lot more video both full short mid and long form video right yeah i do think if you can master or from video you can master like attention grab i agree master and attention grab actually even if you're gonna do long form is a pretty great skill to learn because what's gonna happen right like every platform is being crushed under the weight of ai generated content and so the ability to acquire the first second of someone's attention where they start to scroll is probably gonna be like the number one skill that anyone can actually master because if you can't do that you can't get them to consume anything and so that's why i had here like master written hooks in short form storytelling to kind of capture that attention i linkedin x youtube but really all platforms can work for short form yeah your argument is like look the don draper of twenty twenty five it's short form bad fans would be just ob obsessed about being the best hook writer for short from videos of most right yeah exactly they would just success over the first sixty seconds at any asset i agree that whether you're reading that asset listen to the asset or watching that asset and i think short form content is a great way to master that skill set the tools i put down here was v three which is awesome there is a tool called flow mh and flow actually is built on top of the v models and what it allows you to do is start to create real like movies you can actually start to create scenes unfortunately for me i don't know what it's like in the us that tool is still on v o two when you wanna add multiple scenes but you could just go in and use v three in gemini if you can't use flow captions mirage which we had the founder on that is a really cool tool very cool i thought i was blown away by about how great that tool so this allows you to create great short form video and then if you're doing text based we probably will do an episode in this i started working on a episode for claude where you can basically create a ride in app within cloud fine tune to your own styles that's really great at hooks i think we should do a show just on like short form hooks and like building a project or an agent to do short form hooks and do just a whole show on that i agree yeah so you're doing your ai search now you're mastering short from content these code powered experiences i covered in another episode we have covered a bunch of this in singular episodes you and i both have done a code power experienced show you can search lead magnet it was my episode where i go through and show cloud artifacts on how to basically build lead magnets but really what what you're talking about here karen i think is that people used to give away blog articles and white papers and now you can just have do all that for you so you need to give away instead of information action yes and the best way to do that is some type of really lightweight free code driven application and like the best example that i had i you did like this whole fictional landscaping company and so it was like a budget est a curb side appeal greater things that somebody who was thinking about redoing their landscaping would care about right yeah exactly again i've pulled in the why here seventy percent of b b buyers prefer self serve tools and interactive content you did a great episode to show how you could move from like content lead magnets to code lead magnets but really we marketers used to create content because it was way too hard to create code correct and now it's like as easy to create code i know developers will hate me saying that but for the things that marketers want to build that are like lightweight things it's as easy to create code powered experiences as it is content powered experiences and i think that is a huge change in how we're going to market to audiences i think that's true one a quick idea i had in a video that i put around this for rep was that very thing that you built shouldn't rep just have a library yes of drag and drop elements that a allowed of people to create all those kinda lead magnets one hundred percent and just all the basic front end and backing end components that you can remix into like exactly market specific little web app for sure exactly the next is you have to have a great intent engine that is going to power all of your ai experiences and that's really really important so your intent engine is really how you get your internal and external intense signals around your ideal customer profiles your ideal customer profile is who are the audience that is going to actually buy your product buy your services there is more intense signals than ever before now because we have so many great tools that can go and scrape external signals or gather internal signals the kinda power of everything else you build in ai is gonna be powered off this really incredible intent engine and again we see this actually working so it's ninety three percent of b b marketers who have tried to create experience around intense signal let's see a huge increase intent signals are things like they would suggest that you are a good person to connect with so an example of a external intense signal would be you change jobs right and when you change jobs that's a good signal that you can market to that person and market your tool they may get promoted external attempt signal maybe a startup gets a fund and they are very specific to your niche and then internal signals are that person is showing intent that they are interested in purchasing your product so this i think is the most advanced concept that you are sharing with everybody today and what you're really saying here is that in an ai world context matters right and we we say that on no matter what we're doing with ai it's all about oh we have the context of who we're talking to how to do this thing and one of the things you need context on is not just who you're talking to but what can you know about them and what can you know about them that really matters to them so that when you engage with them you can reference that and connect with them on that or even set the timing of your message around that to really transform and get really different results in your marketing you need to transform how you time and personalize your messaging and you can't do that without really good intent data and kieran maybe you could give everybody a couple specific like types of like data fields that would be really good emblem diplomatic examples of what people would be doing here so some of the best external intent signals are things like job postings and hiring activity actually hiring is one of the examples i showed i did a quick video for everyone on our channel or and how to build this thing which we're gonna get into called micro audience marketing and mine was really based upon small audiences who are hiring so we're looking at companies and who are hiring in job profiles that would be suitable for hubspot that the fact that the executive or team member and linkedin dan could change their job this is a signal of budget shift there's a bunch of like demographic changes new product launches investment would be won so like a column one companies uses that they just raise because in just raised they were looking to upgrade their tech stack exactly you can get a bunch of like data from these third party sites so are they viewing certain product pages like all of those kinda of good things again on third party sites you can get search signals is there like an increase in search on some of the size like stack overflow hacker can news but these external signals that would say hey they're in the market and research in something that is relatable to my product and so they're kind of examples of external signals internal signals are very unique to your business so they may be someone visited a certain page on your website someone is viewing on your pricing page if you have a freemium product someone has taken certain actions within the freemium product and the word you use is the right word right like the more context i can gather the more personalized and i can make my ai experiences and actually the more context the ai experience has the better job i can do exactly and so that context layer which is your intent engine is gonna be do or die for having an incredible ai powered bar machine kieran i think i have an action item here would be good you can tell me if you agree with this let me pitch it to you to the audience so if you don't have a lot of intent data or you're just kinda get started here you're like okay cool well like what data do i need and where am i gonna get it right and karen you even here are like there's data all over the place it kinda depends on who you're talking to in your market and your industry and your region all those things well at hope hubspot we have our connector with chat gp as well as we just launched claude this past week and i think kieran i would go in and i would do a prompt for chat gp cloud and say look at my sales and marketing data and tell me what other types of data signals would help improve my results yeah and then i'd haven't returned those results and then i'd have enough have it do a deep research project of the best ways and vendors to get that data yes right that's awesome so you use the hubspot connector that works to chat and cloud you ask it what are the improvements i can make to enrich these personas like what data yes and then you take that and you do a deep research project and you say what are the best sources to get this data correct that is a great way to start i think people should go do that i think ten to fifteen minutes you would have a few vendors that you could go and talk to and probably instantly make your data better obviously we have some data in hubspot there's a bunch of different amazing data vendors out there but i think that process would get you what you needed to know yeah i would say that a lot of the interest in external data you can just get through something like per complexity yes there is a big difference in what per complexity will give you via the api versus what you will get via the chat interface so just keep that in mind alright so this should be music to marketers ears because i think one of the things that it will happen is mark will actually help our friends side in sales and start to eat up more of the customer journey not as in take their rules but actually allows sales to get back to what they probably would love to do which is sell and so the average rep today spends twenty eight percent to thirty three percent of their time selling it's wild should they be spending like eighty percent of their your time yeah and i'm sure a rep would love to spend eighty percent because it would make way more money more money literally three x more money yeah three x more money right and we all know sales reps they like to make money so why is this happening they have to do a bunch of sales admin and so one of the things they actually have to do is build pipeline and to build pipeline they have to do prospect and prospect is a lot of what a rep has to do whether you're doing it through these different roles sdr str bd or just a sales rep themselves and i do think there is a world where this becomes part of the marketing engine because marketing are able to automate all of this will the text based portion they can automate all via ai we have done that in hubspot two great results but they can also then start to use ai to create a call script again using your context layer so you have a great call script for the rep and you can start to actually do most of this work for the rep now obviously the rep is still gonna call the person but everything else you can kinda automate there yeah every company i talk to they want more sales productivity and one of the ways to get more sales productivity is to give your reps more time selling and less time admin write and emails doing all the stuff that the reps can't do it can do very well but maybe like to do less right and then kieran i think the point we should make here is that the whole buyer's journey is kinda getting shifted right the buyers have access to way more information and because of that they need marketers and sellers a little less and so everything that's happening is kinda getting shifted around and one of the things that's happening is that marketing is taking more of what may have been thought of the early sales process previously but we think that's a big economic upside because it's gonna mean that your salespeople people at the end of the day are gonna be much more productive right i agree like mark like marketing are really the the automation team in a lot of cases a lot of the stuff that they could start to do is automate out all of the things that some of these other teams how got task to do but actually then they could be freed up to get back to selling and it's great for the company because if you have a team implement this and their reps could sell for sixty percent of the team it's like you've doubled the size your sales team exactly that's incredible right like you're you're literally double in the size of your sales team because you're getting more than half their time back alright the last one is micro audience campaigns what is this alright so we should start with the stat here that targeted campaigns will increase your click through rate by two hundred and nine percent and conversions by three to five x so targeted campaigns is a way that you can really increase your results as a marketing team forever we have done like segment level marketing right so we have demographic and demographic data then we build these kind of groups of people that are all like each other kind of like loosely like each other and then we markets them because that's just the way ways the tools were today what ai is going to allow you to do is market to like small slices of your audience because ai is gonna do most of the works so instead of marketing to three hundred thousand people you may market to like three thousand people who condensed that into these small groups based upon all of that context more context you have the smaller you can make those groups and then more contextual your marketing campaigns can be and i think this is a big big big thing in terms of the future of markdown i think this is a big change that will happen we're doing a bunch of this now in house hubspot trying to work through the different concepts and i suspect that when you add up all those three thousand person campaigns in totality the conversion rate is gonna be way way greater than just marketing into the three hundred thousand people from the well i think this is one of the most transformational points in marketing right now karen and what we've kinda alluded to throughout the show is that the cost of doing marketing is going down like the cost to write something the cost to create a video the cost to do research the cost to get data all of those things are like kinda flat to down and what's great about that kieran is that you could do more marketing for the same amount of money and so i think there is this sentiment nearly days of ai that oh like we're just gonna cut marketing teams and budgets and all of this stuff it's like no we're gonna have those people and have that money accomplish much more instead of maybe spending three hundred thousand dollars to do a big brand shoot that gives me a couple of ads i might spend three hundred thousand dollars to get three thousand ads that i could do three thousand micro campaigns with influencers and niche markets and all of those things and get double the revenue out of that right exactly i think the way this works again as you use these intent signals to split that ideal customer profile into micro audiences so nothing again works unless you can build this intent engine and then because of that you have these ai powered agents helping you create these campaigns if you had a marketing team having to do this and you had to have a marketing team set up all these different campaigns for small groups of people it doesn't scale because the size of your marketing team would probably outweigh the number of customers you have but because we're gonna infuse ai so ai is gonna be able to craft the email ai can craft the ad ai can set up the campaign and what the human gonna do is orchestrate the ai based around these micro audiences to really provide a ton of value the tools here are l m's complexity labs yes i love this tool you love this tool you just did a whole episode on their new browser comment which you have i don't have you're not using comment yet i can't why oh can you told me how to do it sorry i have appointment man i need you to use it real bad i need your review i use it i i was excited that i did the episode of chat agent because i got that the same time as everyone else the first time i thought like a proper human in the in a civilized world where i got a tool the same time as other people got a tool i will upgrade a comment actually tonight i forgot i do have access to that range upgrade i'm i'm just the most expensive plan of everything now yeah oh yeah my ai cogs are high yeah i have all of these tools and then you can like agent whatever your agent platform of choices that we have a platform call agent or ai which is a great platform you can build some agents yes hey let's go top to bottom the tool quick it for everybody i know people are going to be like well cool i'm buying what you you're telling me to do where do i go to get started doing this so like give everybody a quick tool summary here's your tools set that you can go start to use for some of these so for ai starts you wanna grab yourself one of these tools that allow you see visibility when the l you can get next funnel you can get a used pair there's some others you can go use you wanna get really good at using chat and claude and these things to actually fine tune on your product pages and create niche product pages for you around relevant questions you don't know how to do that go look at the episode we give with we did with asia mash short from content you wanna really get great at v three we'll have a whole episode coming at you and i do my little five minute movie i will demo it on the show and then i would tell you everything i've learned about prompt in for v three exciting you can use captions mirage and then you can fine tune these l chat claude to be a great rhino partner we're gonna show you how to do that in a future episode code power experiences there's lots of great tools i love cloud code lovable rep we have agent led ai to build the agents and so you can build agents and give no way to acquire demand build an a ten agent kip give the thing you should do you should go connect your hubspot connectors pull the data and then run deep research to figure out what are the best data sources for your specific intent signals because there's a wide variety of things you can get ai sales prospect and we are doing this right so we are doing it via hubspot we have our intent data built up here if you wanna run some personalized video as part of your prospecting and try that out the new h end model is incredible go do that and then your micro audience campaigns again you have your intent engine you may wanna do some complexity lab stuff which i did to like categorize my audiences in cool novel ways generally just been able to do great stuff with l m's like g claude chat e complexity they can actually help you segment and cohort that audience in interest in ways these are some of the tools that will allow you to run your ai market and playbook and if we were starting from scratch going into a startup up today going into a company today these are the things that i would prioritize alright i know we covered a lot of ground and we've done a lot of shows on some of these topics kieran gave us a really good overview we've created a playlist with all of the shows relevant to today's episode we're gonna link it down in the comments below and so if you just wanna go on a full deep ai marketing deep dive you just gonna wanna watch every video on that playlist and we should answer all of your questions that you would have from today show alright everybody that was a deep dive in some of the latest and greatest in ai marketing pack if you're starting to do those then you are going to be at the leading edge of the ai marketing curve we be back with way more shows on these topics and other new ones over the rest of the year we'll see you real soon i'm marketing against the grain