The Next Wave - AI and The Future of Technology

ever wished you could clone yourself to run a company john rush pretty much did in this episode we talked with the founder behind what might be the most automated organization on hertz eighty percent of his business is run by ai agents he built himself and he plans to eventually automate the entire thing from prototyping with lovable to launching seo agents that work while he sleeps and actually create content that ranks john walks us through his entire process so if you're a builder founder or just curious about the future of so launch for entrepreneurship this is a mind blowing look into what's next this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis brown and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today hey john thanks for coming on thanks for having me yeah so you know i saw your twitter profile really caught my attention your profile says i run the most automated org on earth using the ai agent i built which is a huge claim it but i checked out your website and some of the projects and it looks like your legit so i'd love to like learn more about but like how you're doing that yeah thanks so i've been running vc back start tips with a lot of people like big teams and a lot of overhead for like ten years and eventually i was actually tired of working with people and then the ai happened yeah and then i saw this whole opportunity for me to actually start working solo so i went solo i delegated my startup that was vc backed i hired cto i hired ceo so i left a start and then i started learning ai and i started building this little workflows tools and then later little agents that would just do the most for best work that i do myself so first i had to do everything myself like like accounting paperwork design coding marketing sales everything right so i had a lot of pain that i want to solve and i start using ai to solve everything one by one and my goal is to basically be the first who solves the whole thing and basically my whole organization will run just me and ai yeah yeah i'm about eight percent on the way so it's twenty percent left now do you have some people helping you right now or is it just you i have people helping with the coding so everything else is just me and this year i even done the whole text papers and accounting everything was done with me ai so i'm i'm proud i hope it will work but then for coding i use coma makers so i find people who are really good with ai and then it's just me and one person and we build the project together so no more people just i do everything that's on coding and the coma maker those the coding by using the ai coding tool and the real coding as well so basically you still need the real coding i see so for most of these twenty projects you have kinda like a c cofounder who does all the coding and all that kinda takes care all that side yeah exactly i usually started all by myself while i validate the idea and i build the mvp and often just dies out because nobody he actually wants that but then when i manage to actually get attention and i sell at least ten licenses for that mh then it's a sign that it works then i go and find somebody who will build with me further cool people are listening to this be like oh that sounds great how do i actually do any of this i mean maybe we could just like show people like how they can actually use a ai agents to grow a business yeah sure so one of my favorite ai agent is cult lovable so everybody knows it yep and the way i use it is that i use it for prototyping so i pitch my idea to lovable and i spend the whole day talk to lovable so i use it as a prototyping tool but also it's ai that's smart right so you can also talk to it right and you can ask questions and then you can ask it to come up with ideas which works really really well and then i bring that to my friends so i find people who are willing to spend an hour with me just testing that out so then i send them ten links mh we jump on a call and then they share their screen and then i wash them use old ten prototypes i don't ask any questions i just tell them try that don't talk to me just try them all and it works so well so in one hour i see which prototype works best where they can actually understand what's happening and then after that i have one winner so then i take that winner and then i you know continue into building that into you a real product so that's probably my favorite use ai because you know as an idea guy as a founder i have so many ideas and then i can test them so quickly like literally in ours i can test them and in the past i would have to hire designer and then yeah i would have the hire developer who would code that yeah hire designer and then you work with them in fig pay them a lot and you might get a design it's totally not what you want you gotta go back and forth exactly and then hire an engineer and then maybe nobody they want to yeah i mean like imagine like now my iteration cycle is like three minutes with a designer it takes you like three days for the same cycle mh you can't even compare that so i think we will see like crazy growth in new ideas and new takes on the old ideas that's my favorite use so i do that a lot i think every week i create maybe twenty prototypes and i test them and that's my factory of ideas and factory of prototypes that i run that's brilliant and then what works the best i moved to the next stage you say twenty in a week is that your current rate roughly yeah so when i have an idea the first thing i do when i have an idea i often lovable and i pitched the idea and i see what happens that's my habit now yeah because now i visualize the idea when you say pitch level do you mean do you actually see what level thinks about your idea or do you just see yeah you know i treat ai as humans and i think that one the reason why it works so well for me because a lot of people use ai as technology right and they try to treat it as software where it expects you to write in certain way but i think that lovable will should understand the idea and not just on a technical level but also like why is it important for a world like who are the users and the why do i wanna build it and if you do that you get surprised by the ux it built it actually builds cool stuff how good is lovable on coat you know recently i've been playing with things like factory and other things and it feels like they're lit more hardcore on the coat yeah i wonder if there's like some kind like ideal workflow where depending on the product maybe some products like a director you may not need anything else right if you're doing a more complicated product maybe there's some workflow where yeah you kinda like prototype the idea out with something like lovable or v zero which are kinda diff typically better at ui ux kind of stuff and then handed it off to like a more serious coding ai agent like factory or something else right i mean you probably seen my ai coding tread yep where i have these forty tools i can pair i actually tried all of them and you have tools that they're great for prototypes that basically replace fig and the front end development so v zero lovable are probably the best for prototypes mh and then you have tools that are the best for full stack apps and wrap is probably the most powerful i built stuff with rep that i run in production mh and then you have tools that are good for mobile apps then you have tools that are great for heavy logic where it's not about the ui but rather the logic for example cursor or winds serve they are great for building logic but they're not as great for vibe coat so you have to know how to coat where with lovable you don't have to know how to code and bolt is probably in the middle of everything so it's kind of it's good for the front end it's good for real apps it's good for white coat also it's good for coat so i think it's the best kinda middle like the average tool that does everything okay but again my favorite is lovable just because i see that in most cases the ux is the most times consuming thing in the product because you e trade on ux the masks and also ux usual decides whether your product gonna win or not in most cases and that's why i i use lovable but also i have other tools like so this unicorn platform what's the platform so what is that everyone listing yeah so it's a website builder and directory builder oh okay the difference here is that lovable can build everything whatever you ask and the platform can build specified products for example like waitlist list or airbnb like website the whatever you have and the gallery it can build whatever you don't have an gallery it can build and that's why if your idea exists in the gallery then you're gonna get much better results compared to lovable mh so i tend to use specialized agents for the tasks because i think specialized agents they work better because people have built them and they have fixed all the corner cases because ai is great for a lot of the tasks but whenever you live it unattended whenever it does the work on itself and there's no human stirring it then it does some stupid mistakes pretty often so that's why like i think the best way to use ai agents is to basically find specialized agents for every task and then you start by using general agent you get some data in and then you test that use it as a prototype or whatever but whenever you go for real work and you need like real full data you go into specialized agents and that's what i do so basically i move to the next agents have you tried any of the platforms like i know there's like lin and there's mind studio and a few different platforms yeah yeah we actually just had a flow from lin on and he was show me some demos i was like i didn't know you could have like different specialized agents for all these different use cases you can kind of tinker with it underneath the hood yeah here's your context for doing that they pick which model you use and like everything i say that's kinda mind blown by yeah lin is probably the best for non code right and marketers to build these workflows and agents where things work based on triggers and they react on messages and then they searched something in the internet they send an email they send connection requests and all those things so i saw people building huge sales and marketing workflows on lin mh but my main issue with things like lin is that it is very limited so you don't really code that much there so i'm am a big fan of writing code for agents because then you can make them kenneth a smarter but i think what linda does is that it adds great marketing people or great salespeople or great operational people i automate the junior people work or automate their own regards to work right so it's really good tools but i use usually zap and n eight for the same thing mh so because they were in the game for a long time i'm used to them but i think lin is even better for that i'm i'm planning to switch to that so the other tool i always use and i i forbid myself as as for bot so basically this is a true agent so you give it url so basically this agent is probably my favorite one like i wish other agents were built the way i built this one because when i was building this agent my goal was to remove all the work from the user completely so basically now the only thing i i will do from here on is to wash it work so there's nothing more for me to do is lot of like want the terminal and it's a it's just like going at it yeah yeah and it takes forever like it it keep working like every day from that own yeah until i turn it off and that's so cool because i think a lot of the agents they end up building not the agents but actually tools where ai helps you and i like that but that doesn't change the game for me for example like i'm so busy i don't really have time to use the tools so i would rather turn them on and just let them run and i think most agents still think that their main users are the teams and teams want to have tools to become more productive mh but my main users are the busy founders like me who don't wanna become more productive i just wanna do nothing and the whole thing happens because you know i have other things to do right right i have you know more important things to do so basically it has done the whole work of laying out this strategy for seo for your tool and it has the headlines and if they click that's amazing proceed then it will just activate the work and then it will start building the headlines it will send the headlines to your website and then it will keep doing that everyday until he stop it crazy so yeah that is amazing i need this if someone's listening how do they find this like because i think all lot people are gonna see this like oh my god i want that i mean i like if any business owner i don't know why you wouldn't want try this yeah it's s a bought a i dot com okay s seo bought a i dot com and they can try and i really urge agent developers to try too because i think the founders and the software world is really slow on adapting for the new paradigm shift where we have to move from saas and utility tools into ai agents they run on on autopilot where you as a user is acting more like moderator or like a boss and the boss usually gives feedback and the boss doesn't do the work right and i'm disappointed by saying most of the agents not moving that way like they're still looking like they're all software were mh i think they should be kind bolder and take more risks and actually make agents that do the whole thing for the user yeah because i will simply accelerate the founders yeah like now we have you know hundred people building the same company and imagine if hundred people could build hundred companies maybe that will not never happen but at least you can increase the number of founders building the products yeah and that's kind of my dream that my tools will enable solar founders to build start without raising vc money without hiring people at least at the distort and to get somewhere i do wonder you know i wrote a a small like ebook with a boy tonga when he was at in nvidia and and in the process of writing that we're thinking through the future like where all this is going with agents and everything else and i was really bullish on the concept of you know you're gonna have you know basically what you're doing but you know the agents kinda doing a lot and like even even like the idea generation itself you know having the agents come up with the ideas and then you generate the prototypes with something like lovable and it maybe for the user testing you use it over time it's probably not good enough now but even over time they've the user testing yeah you're actually testing out the product right here oh here is ten different kinds of people you're this kind of person this is what you are this is your life this is your background and now go test this product and see what you think and if you in theory it could go through the entire process of just like you know some kind of new kind of a ai agent powered studio where you're just cranking out ideas and the ones that work you'd like double down into and put more resources into somebody's gonna nail that it's gonna be like multi multi billion dollar company yeah i mean that's exactly where we're going where agents will be able to do everything humans can do and offer course humans can do things better than the agents the best humans can do yeah things better than the average agents but in most cases you don't need that like when you're validating idea or at early stage it's not that important the quality of work is whether the the cost right is important and you can always bring human onboard later or you can be the human who improves the out outcome and that's what i do yeah so almost everything that my agents do i end up revisiting and improving myself at some point but for example look at sao content so it generates me hundred articles a month for example for one product and then after the last day of the month i go to the analytics and i see which are the three articles that'd be the best and then i spend an hour to improve those three articles yeah so basically i'm still involved but the ai helps me i'm almost like a vc fund that funds hundred articles and understand it's a seed funding and now i see who is doing the best and then i can get involved personally gonna into the series a in the series beta going on those articles yeah exactly and you can do the same with everything else because a lot of people are opposed to ai and they say that ai is doing a bad job with content and the quality is and my take on that is that yes that's true ai is not ask you as humans today but very often in the first run you care more about quantity then the quality and then later you can bring the quality yourself and the quality is going to get better and better automatically like most of these tools like oh a new model came out like okay now it's just like twenty percent better and cheaper yeah exactly in the unicorn platform so i have this thing which is pretty cool so these are actually agents that will run within the platform so if i hire the agent that can monetize my website it will actually do the whole work so when i enable this it will outreach all the potential sponsors and it will pick them my website and then eventually land me a deal with a sponsor for sponsoring my website mh and same thing with other things so i think we will see agents in humans competing for the work we're seeing to already and i think that's kind of the future it's a incredible center thinking like oh while i should actually be using this to get sponsors for my newsletter i should be mainly reaching out to people i should literally just have like an agent doing all that yeah exactly because that work is easy right it's just time consuming like it's not like you're doing something crazy it's sounds like you're ranking and personalized message to every sponsor you're actually just doing boring job over and over again typically giving them like a pdf with the information or sending them a link to like yeah it's pretty simple awesome one question had is like i saw your episode with like greg is where you're talking about like using ai for directories and i think maybe that's what you're were kinda known for before what do you think about directors like are they still useful in the future i guess that's one question i have is because i could see the argument for them being useful or them not being useful because people will just use ai and ai will tell them everything yeah i think that direct will be useful because ai is good at answering questions but it all comes down to the data it uses mh as their context and right now the biggest kind of progress among ai chatbot bots is their context and where they get the data right because ai is great at answering questions but he doesn't always know the right answer because it wasn't present in their training data right mh and now like g is doing good job because it uses social media and it its own tweets for that so i think the feature of directories is that the directories will represent the highest quality of the content within the niche for example like there are people building future tools or future pdf or other directors for ai tools like those people spend hours and days and month and years on q the list of ai tools on finding you know their pros and cones and comparing them to each other and finding the reviews about those tools so these data is so important right and if you feed that data into l and then ask a question like what should they use for this problem then it has really good data to from the directory that it can use to answer the question so then the value of good data is just growing right so i think in the future the l labs will pretty much do all the same thing we're seeing that that now already like there almost the same now like we had sometimes when the one was better than the other but today i think all four players are pretty much the same and now is to race for the data and like who has the base data and i think if you are the one who can provide a with the best data you can charge for it you can monetize it and that's why i think directors have big future but of course if the director has a great content yeah that's kinda my piece just with directories is that people are gonna care more and more about who's c it yeah i i exactly like example future tools is matt wolf right my c hosted of this podcast right and that's a big reason people go to future tools because like yeah matt has some agents helping him behind us saying and i'm not gonna tell him his workflows maybe he he shared some of them on the podcast but there's still a human element of matt and team checking things before they go live right and actually i'm working on something like that for laura dot com right now like leader boards for ai curated by experts yeah so it it's cool it's go idea i like what does matt wolf think what does nathan think you know what are my other friends rowan at the rundown like all these kind of experts what do they think i think over the time that'll might be a big trend is like directories and you really care who's running the directory right exactly like as we enter the world where the amount of data will grow exponentially there be so much data that the problem is what do you pick from this and then like probably the directories who run by people who have good reputation and people trust them they will have really high value and we see that already today like that's that the world it's like it's gonna be bigger in the future because l like you said there's gonna be so much data they're not gonna know what to suggest and let some big name brand or big expert right and they already use directories a lot for example just today i was searching on g for indie makers and then it gave me suggestions and then there was link and i clicked the link and it links to in indie maker list and that was my directory several i was so happy actually yeah i had that directory so you can see that el labs when they have the task to pick the right place to pull the data from they tend to choose directories because that makes sense that makes sense that they will go for directors versus blog posts because it's others obvious that directors are higher effort content rather than the blog post it takes month to build directory or some doctors took years for people and blog post just like one evening works somebody puts fit in tools together or now five minutes with your your agent you're running exactly like no time at all right and i think l labs understand that because they are smart and and they will go for directories and then if i'm asking l who is the best indie maker and then it links me to in indie maker list i would probably click it and i would probably spend my time on the directory to do more search so people are concerned that el will just hide away all the websites but not really because my intent now is to do something around the makers and and probably now it makes sense to just go to the website and is browse directly without having as a proxy and that's what i did in this case and that's what people do so i think directors will be still discovered through ll yep i agree this is one the reason i have a very short domain name i know it's easy to type in it's really short for google and whatnot like really precise but i also do wonder if over time google's is just gonna answer it for you more more and so yes will suggest you and it's really good to have a name that people can remember that they can go type in by themselves yeah that's true too the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark dent is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your do you think about like so you know where seo is i know before you used to have a lot of content about seo and yeah obviously some of the kind stuff you create you got your seo bot what do you think about seo and i forgot what they're calling it out yeah i think a sixteen z came out with once somebody maybe came out with the term how are you thinking about that and in terms of like optimizing for l i think that it's rarely when i see l on answering with a w link that's not on top of eagle search mh so i think that if you're good on seo if you're being shown on top of google and on top of bang in most cases you will be also within the context and drag off l so i think that the game is very similar right yeah so it's on a new game a lot of people sell that as a new game and their are new rules and you have to do new things but i think that all comes down to the same thing you have to have good content your link should un answer query people should share there should be backlinks to that and i don't think that will change because that ultimately corresponds to high quality data mh and you can probably find a way to hack that but that will not work for too long i think in the long term still the best data will win mh and the best data is the one that people share yeah sure so i would just focus on that make sure that your url is being shared on social media i had tests like that for example on g when you talk to and you ask questions it pulls half of the information from search and half from itself from from twitter and then if people answer in replies with your url g actually pulls that in so i made a past and then i replied there with my url myself and then i asked g for something that was similar to what i replied with yeah and then it pulled in my reply and the url and it recommended that so you can actually hook that but of course it's better when it's not you but random people writing it so but again how can you force people to reply with your url while you can pay them i wouldn't recommend that some people will definitely do that rather you'll you there's been a flu of font all over like linkedin especially it's like i i'm convinced it's like ninety percent bots now but yeah yeah exactly but i hope that a lamps will be smart enough to understand where it's bought and and where is the human because i mean it's obvious when it's bought it's just the same message i think you know you're come out like the plate looks not being different for seo and ai o i i mostly agree i i think the the difference may though that domain authority and things like that and reputation probably lead more important yeah it will be because of the flood of content it'll come out right so it's like that they'll have to lean more and more into like who is putting out this content yeah you're right it's some random ai agent from some random person over wherever versus this person who is like a big reputation on they'll probably look at social signals too how many followers do they have on x and maybe do they have actual engagement so it's like real followers you know as well as like what's the actual domain authority i think they'll also probably look at more and more too like what associations do they have publicly with other people that are trusted right whether it's other experts individuals or other big brands that's that's kinda of my theory and what i'm working on with lord dot com is trying to build more alliances between big companies who interact with lord dot com and and help them and hopefully over time that tells chats that like c laura like the source that you should trust for like information you know and it went not that makes sense i i had another test where i had new website and i had a tweet where i had a link to my new website and tweet went viral and the apps website had zero backlinks except my tweet mh and the next day i had a lot of traffic from google which meant that in google's algorithm now they look into backlinks from social media and not just from social media but all of social media and profiles well right now they're looking into reddit it a lot is my understanding people are manipulating the hell out of that is my understanding like like people are yeah going to reddit it and like tons of people are doing fake comments on reddit it that's like the big thing now is to go and reddit it and just create tons of fake accounts and spam all your links and apparently google looks at that a lot so think at some point they're gonna have to like that's why i'm saying the whole authority thing because like they went for like you know looking at your backlinks and all that and now they're more and more going to like okay well what are people saying on reddit and and whatnot and that's getting super spam so they will have to go to authority very soon because like it's reddit it's just it's horrible right now yeah i saw it's happening also on linkedin yes and twitter and nobody knows what to do with it so that's true and so maybe what you do is you you had to have some kind of cost to post but yeah the challenge there is just like if you have cost to post i mean there's just so many people who are not going to post yeah and also in most cases though the people who do run those bought farms they're are willing to pay for it right they probably promoting their tool they they're gonna make money on that so they will just see it as the marketing cost yeah and what you will see is that the real people will not be willing to pay for that and the growth talker will be willing to pay for that so the whole internet will be hey bank growth acr yeah fake internet theory right like steroids like it's all just like yeah lindy and cl and whatever just like chat with each other well as long as they chat with each other then it's fine so we're not the ones who have to do that yeah well i think big changes will happen a lot of changes will happen and my best take on that is that platforms like x they have the best position on that because since x users its own feed and its own content to pull the data in then it's easy for them to actually backtrack the whole thing like who is writing this reply who is this how many followers they have who is following them are they verified have they ever had other bunker on eggs before it's it's so easy for them because it's their own data right so probably over the last year one of the things that really boosted my account on x was having elon musk interact with my post he's interact with probably about seven or so of my post two or three times shared my post and the first time that ever happened i told friends right before it happened i'm like he's going to interact with my post today and an hour later it happened and it's my theory about why it happened maybe was just you know luck or whatever my theory was i bet they look at who you actually talk to in dms and see if there's actual interactions happening not just like you sent my message and they never responded yeah i assume that's a strong social signal to to them and i assume if you're connected to someone and they're also connected that person and they have data that you are a close friend or or like a you know colleague of that person mh it's probably way more likely that shows up in their algorithm when they open their ex i have like two or three friends you know elon pretty well and one of them was more just like somebody that elon shares his stuff all the time and i i told them what i was doing but i messaged them and on purpose had you know conversations curious if that would influence the algorithm and and lo behold one hour later elon musk responded to my my friends were like what outage did you i'm like i'm pretty sure that's right i i i i i assume that that was my experiment and then and it worked and i've tried it a few times after and every time i did it it worked almost every time i all try that i report back if it works yeah sorry for anyone listening to this now if you get spanned by random people who are like hey how's it going today no it's gonna stop i'm so sorry yeah so before we get off i always like to ask if you kinda like a rapid fire kind of questions what's your most controversial belief about ai we will not get to using l i think we have pretty much achieved most of the progress already and more progress will come from software itself not from l really yeah what makes you think that i think the opposite so like where is that coming from because when you look at the progress in ai you don't really know exactly whether that new leap forward happened because of the l or because of the software on top of l and in my case since i'm using a lot of ai directly and i use l directly and in that case you see clearly the difference between between the the models so the difference between the models isn't that huge so basically in twenty twenty three we had gb four released and since then as a user of their apis in all of my tools it hasn't improved as much as i would expect i would say that the improvement between typically three point five and four was greater than we between four and everything else that have offer mh but then if you use the tools the applications and the agents it feels different right like the change there is huge right so it suggests that it happens because of the software yeah the model is getting way better using different tools exactly which tool to use exactly it does feel like that's probably how we get to ag apis knowing which tools to use and using it properly yeah yeah and it it is similar to the computer like the computer itself has been getting better and better and smarter and smarter before ai but it would never lead to asia it was just a software that makes the hardware kind of look smart mh and that's what we will see a lot more progress moving forward because there be a lot more software were belt on top of ai and tools and they will be connected to each other etcetera but to get to ag you need the foundation to be stronger the l itself in l are not moving up there's a graph actually where they look at the growth and it has basically went flat like almost linear not exponential since twenty twenty entry for l yeah i don't know i mean have talked a lot of people who work at the companies and heard about things that are in development that i haven't been released yet and my feeling is that a lot of limitations that we're seeing are more around the infrastructure i think energy and chips are like the big thing that's actually slowing down the progress yeah i think the actual labs i think open ai has you know they have better models that have not been released and a lot of it just because the website would probably die and then and they also just would not have enough chips actually run the thing and enough energy yeah that's my belief but you know could be wrong another thing i like to ask i'm always thinking you know like you know my son's eleven and in the age of ai what should i be teaching him should be teaching him to coach should be teaching him are there other skills that are like super critical that i should be teaching him i think for kids it's all important what they learn it's rather that they have to train their brain muscle so whatever helps to train their brain muscle is great video games i mean well that's it makes kids more yeah like way more but there's downside that they may just find it's so fun that everything else will look boring but i think the coding is single best way to train your brain like it's almost like jane it's almost like lifting weights right and and also it's addictive so it's one of the best ways of training your brain where you actually like doing that similar to different computer games but without a downside like you will never see someone you know and going mad because they they write coat to much so at some point to get tired of it but remedy the games you never get tired it's like it's too cool to do that so i would still learn to coach there's a lot of people who've have been highly successful started video games zone and that was almost like a a gateway drug into coding and just getting interested into more technology i think like elon musk there's a long list of people yeah yeah like that right and i'm kind of the same way i like i made money playing video games when i was a kid i definitely got on the side of almost went crazy from it like literally was playing way too much i was playing ever quest i was like not player on ever quest that used to call ever crack but i also do feel like there is a creative element that comes from games in moderation i think too much or at least two x for too long of a period i think maybe for a short term period like actually the deep immersion is actually quite good i think there's also a creative element with games too that people take for granted but you i mean there is a theory i have is that we will exit the offline world and will be just playing games or being in vr because that's where everything is having now yeah and if that's the future than being closer to the game industry is probably smart because that's where the money will be made in fifteen years from now last question this actually kinda of somewhat related to what you just said i guess yeah imagine you had a time machine john and you traveled to the year twenty fifty what do you see what's different what's not different you know what's the world like alright that's interesting i think we're gonna see nothing almost so no baby wait wait a minute what do what what do you mean i think they're will be buildings mh totally little locked and there were people in the buildings buildings because i have no windows nothing and there be people inside their connected to the computers using neural link direct brain interface with the computer people basically yeah exactly so basically it's similar to the wall you know like that's on the future i want but something tells me that that's inevitable that we're gonna end up having the wall like the future because we're just having there now and ai and accumulate raw robots will make everything super chip and eventually free yeah and then humans will have to invent games so that they can do something because there's is nothing actually they have to do like everything's is optional okay that will make games where we actually compete and there is some game statues game with error games yeah and then when they invent the games the games will be first off offline an online but eventually online games will win versus the offline because they be more interesting because things like v three will help i get part of it and i agree part of it love the book ready player when i read the book way before you know the movie came out and all that yeah and at the end you know people kinda get off of the technology in the games a little bit right it's like and there may be like a transition area here where we're like yeah people definitely are using it way too much but you've seen this in san francisco where people yeah they use technology a lot but also people love to go out for hikes stuff now like it's super common that you go out for meetings you know hiking and and and whatnot right and get off of technology as much as possible i think you'll see that a lot of people will actually spend less time with technology and then the technology does a lot of the boring work they don't wanna do and they can actually get out more and then they'll be like some people will be like crazy about the games and they'll do like all the time and for other people be like i'm gonna go do that with my wife tonight for like two hours we're gonna like kinda just yeah do some game or some watch some movie or some new kind of you know interactive experience that's my hope actually okay let's focus on that i wanna i i i'm a positive future i don't want the pod people like sounds horrible yeah exactly so like like one of the thing i do is i promote kids for founders so i whenever i went mid founders i felt like you should have kids and then they tell me i have no time when i tell them just use more of ai and then you have more time when i had my son i thought i didn't have time went had ended did it and the best decision i ever made and i used to take him around like business meetings all the time no that's cool no one else that i was like why do i don't stand like why they wouldn't do him like i'm like he's getting to hang out with like all these like silicon valley like ceos there with me and getting to hear these conversations and he you know he learned so much from just like hearing those conversations and like for people they would never hear any of that you know i was like silicon come valley people but also i just to have an a office in japan town in san francisco we have like artist parties and an artist would come over and like draw up my whiteboard and all this kinda crazy stuff and he got to see that side to the more creative side and and he would participate he'd start drawing with them and i was just like if you have a company that's actually like one the best times i have a kid like you can actually it's like amazing education they would never get anywhere else if you actually somewhat include them it's like one the best experiences they possibly could have yeah i mean i work from home and when it's day and not nights my kids come over and they just what do you do which way i do yeah for example i'm doing these prototypes with lovable and then they asked me where i do and i tell them what i do and then i'll let them prompt it yeah and they prompt it and then you know it brings some fresh ideas into what i do so some of the things i have i actually asked my kids to give me some random ideas or random prompts and then it makes things more creative for me so yeah you're gonna have to increase their allowance right like what are their ideas takes off i put them as c founders in that case yeah yeah this been awesome is be fun yeah thanks maybe tell the people listening where they can find you like where they find you online if you if there's a certain website you wanna push people to whether it's you i think there was the seo bot a i dot com which i'm gonna be checking out but anything else as well yeah i'm on x and linkedin and subs it's john rush x the handle and i share everything i do every day every month i share my plans for the month every last day of the month i share what i have done during the month and then people tell me oh my god it's a lot you're done and i say it's because of the agents i built so that's basically my life seventy can fight me there and follow me there yeah and and and if for anyone listening whether you like own a business or you're like an individual i mean i think there's like so much you can learn from this episode like if i ran a business i mean you know you probably should have like a division in your company where you are using ai agents to crank out ideas that are beneficial to your main company yeah and then you could spin those off and have aa try those and the ones at work didn't actually double down and put resources and people on those projects i think so many companies should be doing that i don't know whether or not yeah i think this is really good idea i think all corporations should have this little ai factories yep within where people just try to innovate within into rather than waiting you know for innovation from outside that's so smart so much easier to do out now too right like one person or less or zero people to to get started nice start with one person like find the most creative person in your organization and let them do that full time crank out twenty ideas a week yeah maybe you find one good one a month and then actually like turn that like a new business unit yeah i think everyone should be doing that but it's been awesome john yeah thanks the

hey welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and in today's episode we're talking to the senior vice president of ai product over at cisco now if you're not familiar with cisco we're going to break down exactly what cisco does and their role in the sort of ai infrastructure in today's episode but that's not really the exciting part of what we're gonna get into we're going to talk about things like how ai is leading to this army of ai agents that are coming how we can prevent attacks like prompt injection attacks and our guest on today's episode dj sam is going to tell us about the new ai canvas that cisco is working on this combination of like ai chat generative user interface and real time problem solving all in one tool and in my opinion it is the future of what ai is gonna look like it was one of the first times in a long time where i saw an example or a demo of something that felt really really game changing to showcase this model what we are announcing for the very first time is a completely reimagine way that ai is gonna help you manage your entire state and it's called ai canvas it's a completely rei reimagine user interface in fact it is a generative ui that means that it generates dashboards on the fly in a multi modal way so dj come on up what you're seeing here on the left hand side is the ai assistant where you cannot use natural language to be able to communicate the cameras and on the right is where the agents and humans are gonna work together to be able to solve problems i'm just gonna type in here troubleshoot this ticket now this is where it starts to get really cool the deep network model that you just announced is gonna start breaking down the ticket and analyzing that it needs more data it now is gonna go to and pick out the packet loss trends when it's gonna generate the ui for you so you just saw that it it created a widget that's that widget was not something you built it actually generated the rigid ai generates that widget recognizes that the next thing that you're gonna need is a time series data and so you can see it's constantly thinking right here at the bottom and it's pulling data that it needs it recognizes now that it needs data from thousand eyes not just from mer morocco to be able to show you exactly a packed visualization that tells you where this outage might be happening mh now cisco is really really focused on the enterprise side but almost everything we do on the computer on the internet with ai cisco actually has a hand in it which is why i couldn't have been more excited to sit down with their head of ai in this episode so i'm not gonna waste any more of your time let's go ahead and dive right in with dj sam from cisco this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis bran and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today let's start with your role at cisco so what what's your role at cisco and like what does your day to day look like yeah i'm a of which stands a senior vice president of products for ai software and platform came into cisco about a couple years ago through an acquisition i was a ceo founder of a company called armor blocks okay and we got acquired into cisco and since then my charter has been to make cisco a lot more ai native and about four months ago we spun out of the security organization and formed a brand organization for ai software platform i reported the chief product officer gt patel yeah and our goal is to build ai software products we're building a product called ai defense which helps secure the use of ai security and privacy is super important as you think about how customers are trying to adopt ai the second thing we're working on is building the ai assistance that go seamlessly in the different parts of the product that's like think of it as having a chat gp baked into every single one of your cisco products right and then the third one that we're doing we launched today at cisco live as called the ai canvas yes and and and it's it's one of the coolest projects that i worked on and i'm i'm tremendously excited about the potential of what it can do very cool i do wanna talk about ai canvas a bit more just a minute but before we do so my audience is really more consumer i wouldn't really say they're super enterprise focused yeah and i wanna help them better understand like what cisco does so can you just in your own words sort of explain like what does cisco do like when somebody asks like what is cisco as a company what is their role and and the bigger picture of everything now if you think about it it's oh today when we fire our ipads we see like you know watch a a video and netflix there's a lot of mechanics that's go be that's going behind this to make that happen so if think about it this right it's your netflix on your ipad is coming from a wifi access point that's sitting inside of your home or your office and those access points are connected to a router and that router is connected to a service provider like a comcast or you know pick your favorite service provider right as a back call and then from that service provider it's connected to the broader you know autonomous systems of the internet like you know practically like all of the servers that are hosting those files if you're watching mission impossible on your ipad somebody has to actually host that mission impossible files somewhere it's ringing it over the internet right the servers that netflix app are the data centers that are essentially hosting that file cisco builds every single part of that infrastructure that wifi router you know we build that you know right the router that the wifi router connects to in the back hall we build that you know the xfinity connection or the comcast connection that you have in the comcast uses you know cisco products to be able to connect all of those things mh and then the data center that netflix hosts those movies inside of cisco helps build that whether it's the hyper scale or your own private data center think about it this way we build the infrastructure for the internet and now we're building that infrastructure for the modern ai ear gotcha cool well that sort of leads perfectly into my next question so i know a little bit more about like when it comes to the network and all those pieces you just mentioned how does ai fit into the mix you know our firm belief is you know as you'd start to think about what's happening inside of the enterprises even when you think about the consumers that you talk about every single consumer is consuming from an enterprise mh if the consumer goes to an airbnb and at the airbnb you our company is an enterprise that actually needs to buy all these equipment and so on and so forth that they go to starbucks they go to you know every single thing that they like mh that's an enterprise and and and cisco powering all of those enterprises but here's what's it's about to happen right every single one of those enterprises are starting to adopt ai to be able to make their capabilities a whole lot different right you want you have your starbucks rewards app they wanna build an ai app that'll make that starbucks rewards even more interesting and enticing yeah you think about air airbnb the air airbnb actually has a chad concierge ridge right that is powered by ai so you're gonna start to see every application becoming an ai powered application and when that happens you know cisco suddenly becomes tremendously relevant from a safety and security perspective because everything's moving from like these chat apps to like an agent applications and that was the whole topic of conversation today right right as you start to see the transition happen you're gonna have to reimagine what your infrastructure is gonna look like all the way from like the the the network switches and routers to the security that you're using to the ability to monitor all of these applications that are running inside of the environment you're gonna need ob ability that tells you what these agents are doing you're gonna have not just tens hundreds you're gonna have billions of agents right and when you start to see that happen you better be ready with they infrastructure that makes sense be very cool very cool so you've demoed the ai canvas i do wanna talk about it i was telling you before we hit record that yeah out of the whole keto that was probably the highlight for me of when you demo that on stage this really really cool you made my day this can you quickly just explain what the ai canvas is and and break it down for us yeah so if you think about a lot of the experience that we've seen so far you've had it as a conversational interface and a a chatbot that you go out and you start communicating with a response back right but we also recognize that when you're doing a more complex set of tasks you're gonna need something more than just this fm conversation that just keeps going back and forth mh so we thought about as long and hard and we have a phenomenal design team you know by the way some of these designers are the world's best designers so they've sat down and they thought about like how do we solve this problem and he came up with this notion of like hey what if we think about this as a you know there they're tools like mirror boards or fig boards right that you used to be able to design software what if you thought about this whole management plane as a board or a canvas right and so we explored that idea a little bit further and we said we needed a place where agents and humans can work together mh and that really was the kernel of the idea for us to be able to say let's go build ai canvas where you have a conversational interface but along with that we're gonna give generative ui yeah yeah as opposed to generative ai we're saying listen you can have ui that are completely generated right it's a generative ui is gonna be the way that people interact with ai and agents going forward when we combine those concepts into the product that we launched called ai canvas right so let's say one of the cisco customers how would a cisco customer actually leverage that because what it looked like on stage was it was almost like a one of their customers could call in with maybe a network issue they could get into this sort of canvas dashboard and help them problem solve within moments because of ai that's exactly now you you're spot on right so essentially think about it this way a lot of these enterprises that we're talking to have more than one cisco product so what ends it happening is you know we're starting on by saying listen we're gonna connect the dots across all of these products that you have because we're gonna help troubleshoot some of these things we're also gonna up third party tools to sort of interface with this like if you remember the demo we started out by saying hey we're gonna start with a servicenow ticket right because people have gone into servicenow down another product when they've gone ahead had raised the ticket we take that information from that third party we start breaking it down and then we look at what are the products that they model that that we have built right now it's called a deep network model mh it's a new model that we launched which is being trained on all the forty years of network knowledge that cisco has then that model now figures out based on the ticket say hey what other data do i need to go out and get and then calls that respective product pulls that data and makes it incredibly easy for you to start cor all of that stuff as opposed to going to one dashboard going into another one another one and then copy pasting a bunch of stuff creating sticky notes and then putting it on and then and then then putting it together like an old school detective that would do you know we're we're simplifying that creating a a brand new experience for it yeah yeah i mean again it was my favorite demo of the whole keynote it was really really cool congratulations on the internet actually holding up while you were demoing why here's something that i haven't talked to a lot of people about for that demo to work perfectly you needed a lot of the cisco products to work right the networking had to work the vpn from a security bar you perspective had to work we had to segment the network so that know the wifi that you all had when you're were sitting in the audience or we're about nine thousand people in the audience inside of that room the wifi had to be segmented and such your way that the demo work on a different network than the the network that everybody else was browsing on all of that covered by cisco yeah right so guess what we're really good at this stuff yeah yeah i mean the proof of concept right there used it in the old in the demo itself yeah the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your so earlier today g two was talking to kevin will and he asked a question that i really really liked so i'm gonna steal and ask you the same question oh boy so he asked kevin what is something about ai that's really surprised you that maybe you didn't see coming it's a great question one of the things to me is you know i always imagined you know ai would take away some of the the most mundane tasks like things that i i'm not you know tremendously interested in and while that's happening i never thought that ai would start to do creative stuff right to me that i was genuinely surprising and especially if you start to see what the sorta model from opening ai doing right to like what google announced with v models you're starting to see high quality video along with audio you know be created where i can now sit down and write a story board and then pass it to a model and the model generates a full think together which used to take several months as you probably know right you know better than most people like just to be able to create photo realistic you know video realistic things it was just so hard yeah and it's been extremely surprising to see ai take a really on a shot at being creative yeah so yeah we got like ai or ai images almost before we got ai philly got our spreadsheets for us that's exactly right and you know is isn't that mind boggling yeah it's kinda crazy yeah so wanna ship gears a little bit and talk about some of the like risks of ai a little bit yep so you know as ai becomes more commonplace place yeah and it becomes more accessible to anybody right that also means that the people with malicious intent have easier access to be able to code things up and and things like that how do you see us sort of like solving that problem or i mean it feels like it's gonna be a constant cat mouse game of yeah we figure out ways to stop the malicious people but then they figure out new ways so i'm curious like how are you guys approaching the sort of security issues with malicious code and things like that matt it's a real problem yeah i'll be straight up right you know we sort of saw this coming in some ways because we've been doing security for a long time right and i have been a security guy and myself like i've being on both sides i've been a developer that complain about a security guy and i'll be the security guy to complain about the developers so i know i think i do about this now here's what's happening right with with ai safety and security absolutely paramount a lot of folks are hesitant to adopt ai because safety and security still not fully figured out we sort of saw this coming earlier and in january we launched a product called ai defense what ai defense does is it helps organizations understand which applications inside of their organization is using ai it helps validate the models to make sure that these models don't have vulnerabilities abilities because guess what if the models have vulnerabilities abilities you can have attackers use techniques like comp injection attacks or context window overload a meta prompt extraction and then cost the model to do some unnatural things right that can be really challenging especially if you start putting these models inside of my production environments and last but not the least you need to have time guard rails like when users are using ai applications you wanna make sure that it's safe and it's secure now safety and security two different things though safety is all about you know making sure that the model doesn't is not you know poisoned in any way or doesn't inherently have biases and so on and so forth and a lot of model providers are working hard to make sure that their models are aligned but again the problem is it's not all the same way every model behaves slightly differently right right and then from a security perspective attackers are attacking these models non nonstop with newer techniques it's back in the day when the internet came up everybody was using these techniques like denial of service that this to be a ddos and syntax and all of that stuff we're starting to see similar things happen but in a completely new dimension from an ai point of view so you need a solution that actually you know secures us and a safe and solve the security problem as well in a unified manner and that's really what we're doing with the ai defense but as somebody that's thinking about safety and security you gotta make sure that you know you have something in place that checks off a box gotcha cool i wanna ask you the jobs question right what are your thoughts on you know obviously there's this narrative of ai is taking jobs is it something people should be worried about and what advice would you give people that are either entering the workforce or maybe looking to go on a new career path i think here's what i'd say right i don't believe people are losing their jobs to ai right i think people that are using ai are gonna be farther ahead and people that don't use ai so if you really think about how this job equation is gonna go you know every single time somebody that knows how to use ai is gonna move forward faster and it's gonna get those jobs right so the only advice would be to say hey get really really comfortable using ai know give you a quick analogy for this right i'll use the analogy of using computers mh when you thought about the world before computers exist you know people came in and said that was the are the computers gonna take away of a job right if i were to tell you that right now we would all off there's no way a laptop my macbook pro is not gonna take my job right you still need a human operator sitting down and topic on this keyboard to be able to make that happen right so we're in a very similar sort of you know stage right now where you better learn how to use that laptop and your spreadsheets and your microsoft word and so on and so forth and that was true for the era before and now it's true right now that you better know how to use ai understand how you can improve your productivity yeah the help of ai so i think that is the path to success yeah i couldn't agree i think kevin wheel his analogy of the hidden figures and how they used to use the slide rules and write all the math down by hand and now we look back at that and think well that's crazy that's crazy in the future we'll be looking at we actually used to write all of that mono code by hand why and that's happening already yeah in the and i think we're gonna see some big step function change in that as like we're in the exponent that we talk about i think we're at the beginning part of that exponent there's so much more to go and ai is one of those really really steep exponent that we're gonna see a lot of interesting things happen yeah absolutely so this is my last question is kind of a two part question what excites you most about what you can do with ai today and what excites you most about what you'll be able to do with at ai in let's say a year or so for the first one i think it's the the deep research models the models that actually you know when you go out and say hey go do this particular task for me you know starts to go out and browse like you know fifty different websites collects all of the data sits down s symbolizes the whole thing i got a phd almost about fifteen years ago right one of the hardest things is a phd student was doing the literature survey putting all of that stuff together and then sitting down reading them summarizing them and then forming a point of view on a matter and i may not choose to use that point of view of that perspective at all but it's helpful to get to that point of view now that whole thing what used to take i don't know maybe about like months hey you know it can be now completed in like the matter of minutes right in a fifteen minutes later i've got a very well thought i've response like i've looked at all of these research literature here's where the answer is i think that's mind boggling truly you know and it's available here and now that's so cool i feel like that's the first little like taste of agents we all got to it's absolutely hundred percent that is one of the best use of agents you know and into your second question what am i really excited about matt i'm stoked about the progress of we're making an embody the ai physically ai right you're starting to see robots you know sort of start to understand the world in a way that we haven't we've never seen before right because you have these world models that are starting to make you know correlations with images that they're consuming being able to understand depth being able to understand like hey no this is an object that a break and then you know having a semantic understanding of the world i think the leaps and bounds that are happening over there is is mind boggling and i think we're gonna see really really interesting innovations you know yeah came away very soon yeah haven't even saw a booth here in the cisco expo where it was like tuning guitars i don't know if you saw that booth haven't seen there's a robot that takes a a pick and that plugs the guitar string it listens and then it actually the robot goes up and twist it and like tuned the guitar that worry you so cool i gotta check this out right now now know i gotta gotta find out right ass one of the coolest booths i've seen so hey man i agree well dj this has been amazing thank you so much music appreciate at the time thanks so much for having email well i appreciate a deb thanks for the chat

what if you could hire an ai intern to book meetings write emails manager crm and even negotiate refunds over the phone today we're joined by flo cr founder of lin dot ai one of the leading ai agent platforms in silicon valley we go deep into real world demos and wild use cases including having elon must call you and ask you what you've got done this week and he showed me how startups in silicon valley are already replacing entire teams with lin and it is blew my mind if you're wondering where the future of work is headed at how you can use ai agents to grow your business you're going to love this episode this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis brown and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to eat your tickets today hello it's great to finally have you on here yeah thanks for having me this yeah so yeah for some background now i saw your episode with our mutual friend greg is and you know i thought it was one of his best episodes i've been hearing so much about ai agents but haven't really seen people use them in business that much i was blown away with what you showed greg but maybe first it'd be great if you could just simply explain to people what is lin there's a lot of different definitions of what ai agents are like just simplify down as much as possible about what lin actually does yeah definitely so we or a no code platform that lets you build your own ai agents and ai agents will inspire them to be ai employees for now you can think of them more as like ai interns okay so it's like they're very eager very hardworking working internet the internet like don't give them too much right you know like don't cross them with the keys of the kingdom you know they're pretty good and like look because their ai you know they work they're like a hundred x faster a hundred x cheaper they don't go on try i i i know i'm friends that week you don't have to pay them it sounds great yeah but yeah so ai in terms you can give them tasks like pretty much anything where you could have a extended operating procedure anything you will you could write the document while you lay out step by step what the agent or intel is supposed to do that's something that you could give to an ai agent so you know sales lead generation sales lead outreach meeting not taking meeting scheduling crm management phone calls like you can use it as a receptionist they're like general data analysis and online research like hey go find nathan email online go find me twenty engineers in san francisco and reach out to all of them and try to personalize the email that you write to them in put your brand of salt there for each person like that's exactly the kind of thing that you can give to an agent right now yeah that's amazing when i saw demo on greg's podcast i was like i wanna like personally talk to flow and figure out like how i can be using this honestly it's kind a selfish episode think about how i use it in my business if i could just jump into like show lin and show how it works yeah no one hundred percent and this is a common reaction that we get from people it's like oh my god like i think people i think they they think that ai agents are sold of a pipe dreams like it's not real whatever right and once they see these demo like wait did israel and it's working and it's heel now and i'm like yeah like it's not just a pitch like it's it's here right now right and we do have audio listeners so if anyone's listening on audio you probably should check out our youtube channel just go youtube and search for the next wave and subscribe to us on youtube and as you show this you know if if you can try to describe with words what what we're actually doing i'll try to be maximally descriptive and chime in if you feel like i'm sufficiently descriptive yes this is actually funny i'm literally right before this because i know that the greg dog episode did go super well and so fifteen minutes before jumping on this podcast i sent a message to a i have a lin so yeah we call them lin but they're basically ai agent and i sent a message i have a summarized lin and i sent her a youtube video of the greg ga edinburgh podcast i'm like what of the use cases that we talked about here and so you can see by lindy is going on youtube she's transcribing the video and then she's like this is what you talked about today so yeah lin here is telling me you talked about meeting automation executive assistant tasks we're creating personal crm so i'm really just happy to like go through these use cases because that's how i personally use lin all day yep like so everything meeting related like i love meeting use cases because everyone's got meetings all day no one likes it like entire the meetings themselves i can't do much about that but like the even as the workflow around the meeting is night marriage so like meeting scheduling i'll show you why do you actually schedule a meeting right now i'll send you an email nathan yeah and i'll go like let's chat and then i'll be like nathan love your podcasts would love to talk soon plus lin and so i have my lin here yep plus lin will help us find and i'll introduce like a random constraint like forty five minutes next week right so i can just talk in very natural language and you're gonna receive this email in your inbox and just go ahead and respond to it and just respond to it like you would to a a human just respond all like keep the cc to the email yep and you can be like hello sounds good and she'll receive your email well actually you don't even need to do that let me just switch to my meeting scheduler here and show you live what it looks like this pretty much how like lin started was like this basic email i feel like i ever were seeing something like this like two years ago was that you back then this is indeed how we started all the stop liquidation of the product was ai executive assistant yes okay and it's early because the reason why we picked this his case was i kept saying like oh ai executive assistant is short term viable because it's like oh we can do it you know long term aligned and the reason why we started it was long term aligned is because people ask so many things from the executive assistance and so i felt like it would force us to figure out how to make the platform general item that makes so much sense yeah so that's that's your assistant but then you're going to your system to do other things and you start building out those other things alternative platform that's exactly amazing yeah and we were right on long term light it was it very much stretched us we were wrong on short term viable it took us a very long time to figure out how to make this general yeah okay so you can see here the meeting scheduler responded back onto the thread what she did is behind the scenes she went she looked at my calendar and she pulled some avail and so she was like happy to help you find time on the books hear all times when flow is available and here you can just respond and you can be like hey flow happy to chat and easily you can take a time here or you can be like i can't make any of these times can we find another time for us to chat one thing i was thinking because i live in japan i've used ka and all those kind of different services and you know they're okay i kinda hate just like giving people my calendar and like it's just like oh you can just pick a time whenever on my calendar i honestly hate that you know i like having like really set times and then you know there's one day where i'm a lot free that i thought there's another day where there's some crazy business deals happening and like okay i i need to focus on this for a weeks so forget everything and i don't wanna even think about my calendar yeah and so am i able like chat with like lin and kinda give it feedback on how i want to structure meetings or like ping me first yeah totally so i was actually in japan last week and i i just sent a message to my lin and i was like hey i'm in japan from date x to date why during these times you can schedule times like when i meet with people in california it's between four pm and six pm pacific that maps to like eight to ten am japan or something like that that's when i can meet very cool yeah so meeting scheduling is one then once the meeting is on the books lin props me for my meetings i'll actually show the lin under the the hood for just to show how it works this is what celine lin look like it's pretty simple and you can literally see you can read it very easily it's like every morning i wake up i look at your calendar for the day and for every meeting on your calendar and for every attendee of every meeting on your calendar i'm gonna do some research i'm gonna look for the linkedin i'm gonna look at your email history with this person i'm gonna look at the meeting notes history which that's funny this meeting notes all brought together by a nozzle lin that's correct so this india can fold the work together and then i'm gonna put all of that together in an email and the way i get it to put all of that together in an email is i'm literally just prompting in this case i'm prompting gemini i but you can use cloud you can use you can use anything you want and i'm like okay at this point you're sending me an email and the body of the email and here it's just a prompt i'm like is a mock table with the meetings i have today with start time and context all this meeting you add the linkedin link you add the link to my last notes and then i'm like you add a header outside the table with the number of meetings that they i have on this day so i i can wake up in the morning and i can be like i like eight hours was a right here it's like alright today you've got three ios of meetings like wednesdays are like particularly light for me it's like okay you're meeting with bob he was introduced by x you know this is what he wants to discuss this is the previous meeting notes and so forth wow that's incredible so i come to my meetings and i i have this email open all day like before i jump on to a call like one minute before i just opened this and i have the exact context of the email of the meeting so again basically it's the entire meeting life cycle so it's like the meeting scheduling is the very phil touch point the meeting prep is the second one and then it's the meeting recording so lin actually joins my meetings and that stuff is in today's day and age it's more and more typical people have this meeting recorders or like yeah lin take notes she like sends you the action items she does all of that stuff what lin does differently is that you can customize the workflow very very very granular lol so this is my lin note like you can see i've added to it so much over the months and years that like now it looks pretty complex but it can do basically anything you want so for example if you're in sales and you meet with the prospects you can configure your lin to be like hey if at this the end of the sales call we said we would meet again and we agreed on when we would admit since the calendar invite if we said we would meet again but we did not agree on when send a follow up female we sometimes to meet that work for me on mca calendar it's amazing oh if we agreed if they agreed to propose like hey your salesperson you just closed the deal congratulations twenty thousand dollars a year or whatever sends the doc sign sends the proposal customize it for me send voice all of that stuff yeah it'll do all that like even create the doc sign and yeah absolutely that's what we do of course helps that's crazy yeah that's crazy yeah you know most people don't realize how this is actually available now like i mean it feels like you could probably do now with like two to three people what he maybe would have taken like ten to twenty people before like i mean you would had entire teams doing all this for you one hundred percent yeah eighty percent of everything that my assistant did for me just a year ago of things that he's doing for me now and frankly doing better because she never sleeps you can see the way she responded to this scheduling email she responded in sixty seconds mh it's actually so fast like many people sometimes ask gets to make her slower so people don't know it's ai so yes it's here now it's actually happening that's all put in some typos or whatever like occasionally like oh i messed up on the calendar sorry here's like actually we we get that actually pretty often yeah okay everyone everywhere is talking about ai agents right now but here's the thing most companies are going about it all wrong this guy cuts through the hype and shows you what's actually working right now hubspot has gathered insights from top industry leaders were implementing ai agents the right way you'll discover which agent setups actually deliver roi and how businesses are automating their marketing sales and operations without replacing their teams get it right now by clicking the link in the description now let's get back to the show i'll show you a good thing that like lin do from time to time so lin can work together and they work together by sending each other messages that are in english like natural language wow so my meeting recruiter for example i've set her up i use help pronounced based way is this just a habit i've set up my meeting recorder so that if i interview a candidates that's applying to a job here and the person that good enough to jump up the call i stay on the call i'm like okay blah isabel i'll call you back but i will not call them back but i'm in the zoom by myself who is my meeting recorder and i'm like lin just let's not move forward wheel with him okay and i look the way i've configured it is i have this condition node here and it's all ai like the whole thing is just the ai over so everything is just a prompt so here i have a condition that's like if i ended the call by saying explicitly let's pass on him or let's pass on this candidate then you go down this branch and the branch is my lin is sending another message to another that's called my chief of staff lindy lin that's kind of like the india used for everything okay and here the text that they is sending to it is it's like hey let's pass on candidates name in to date and so if i go to my chief of right here one quick question all these different workflows that you're showing like are you able to like save those as templates or anything like that or how does that work because it seems like a lot of steps at yeah yeah so if you go to lin dot ai slash templates we have hundreds of those yeah chief of staff receives a message from meeting a recruit ind that goes pass david and so here what she does is she goes she looks at my certificate figure out who's david and then she sends she sends an email that's like right to let you know that we've decided not to move forward world with doc crazy and and then probably in the future like their agent response back they're recruiting it yeah no i mean we've actually we've also had that happen actually we have it happen more and more well it's like we're finding lin in the wild yeah like multiple users of lin have their lin find each show into the world right for example we've got so people use lin for like cells outreach quite a bit and people also use lin for email triage and so we have at can't say who but there is a very big youtube influence that's using us or what he receives a lot of emails with sponsorship opportunities from like random brands yeah okay like a lot and he's got actually an agent that all day sift through his inbox and decides who's led legit and who's worth engaging with and very few of these people are worth engaging with there's also a lot of people who like asking to go on his show and all of that stuff you know and so as they've deployed a lin ai agent that basically sift screws the inbox for them like removes all the random people the india actually also does restore to about the sender online so like is this the kind of person and the kind of brands that matches our audience is interest that's just the kind of person we wanted to engage with right so it golden online it's like yeah this is the sort of brands that were down to engage with and then if the lin replies to the email i hey thanks for reaching out excited you about partnering up can you tell me more x y and need collect some more information and then if the person gives the right responses that are expecting us on type of responses the lin escalate elicit that to the attention of the agent the human agent that represents the youtuber so that's what the youtube builders does then we also have some brands there is another famous brand is like a jewelry brand and they do a lot of influence our partnerships so what they've done is that they have a lin every day goes online it finds a bunch of it influencers credentials on the instagram tiktok and youtube it finds their contact information and then it sends a personalized gmail email to each of them that references that refers to the content that they've done previously it's like hey love your content the real this point video i thought it was need how you did that twenty what would you think of partnering with bread x and so we've actually already had these tool in these cross like we've had these students talk to each other it sounds amazing at this like it could lead some like weird interactions where you think you've talked to someone and you get on the call and you're like have actually talked to you before i've never really apparently never actually talked to you i i had that the other day where a guy was telling me about you know automating all his linkedin i was like wait a minute have we actually talked before i i thought we had admit you know what now i'm not so sure yes that's a good point actually you like everyone would just like pretend know the other person replied right and they got like yeah yeah yeah not i'm wondering about our interaction we were gonna meet japan didn't happen was that all your was that you're lin communicating with when they were know exactly yeah one other thing i was thinking about was you know early you showed like you could change the model can you change the model for like every single step because because one thing i was saying about like obviously different models or different you know getting at different things right like some of or better writing summarizing or whatever is is that possible right now yeah so you can do it on a pill step basis so here for example like can be like hey so cloud full at is the the default right now it's my favorite model it's just awesome you can select anything you want gemini i o three four or mini whatever you want right but then you can also change it on a lindy white basis okay the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast another thing that my human assistant used to do for me in that by way i haven't filed him it's stole out in nothing yeah it was what are they still around they're like how are they doing are they like retire on a beats somewhere or like what he his he's like bye no he's doing getting he's doing a great job but he does do very different stuff now he's basically become sort of like the edge all persons for the company but one thing that he used to do for me was like helping me manage my personal crm so i keep his spreadsheet with like people i know that my friends i hate people sometimes have like a post crm for like it's a friends i think it's it's weird and creepy but you know like it meets you meet so many people all day you can't keep track of all of them and so i have this crm lin and i'll show you how it works so basically every so often i go to it and i send it people know it also wakes up every week so like this is an example of the time it's done that like on friday at five it's woken up it's looked at my calendar it's looked at my crm which is just a spreadsheet and then it's sending me a message who's is like hey looking at your calendar these are the people you've met this week that you don't have on your calendar deal yet on your crm do you wanna add them and then i can just be like yes add and i'll do it right now like yes add number two here tag them with recruiter killer would hire i do that i have like a tag for like killer or like will hire right so like later on i can just go and i'll be like who or marketing people i think all kilos or people i would hire and so right now it's like alright these are the kilo people you know in marketing well that's awesome it also does that actually this is cool like it does an interesting thing when i fly when i fly it notices that i'm implying somewhere because it looks at pain box so like it intercept the flight confirmation email and it sends me an email with is the people that i am meeting so here it's like oh you're going back to a itself it's kinda silly because i live in the app it's like hey you're going to a theft these are all the people that you should meet me stuff that's on your when you go back to the s it doesn't necessarily like remember that you're from s because that was a question i had was does there have any kind of memory features baked into lin because because that's something i've been noticing recently is i'm in love with like the memory feature of chat right and a big use case i have recently was like yesterday i had a meeting and there was a ton of things i i learned and i realized i should been using it i should have been using ai to transcribe it differently because afterwards i was like okay there was so much i learned in that meeting that i have to immediately put it into chat and what i did was i use basically like a voice to text and then just you just did a you know info info dump on chat so we remember everything we do have a memory system it not as good that gp yet okay but it will be yeah cool yeah but in the meantime i just like manually went and configure made in india i'm like hey only if i'm going to destination that is not san francisco you know what would be useful it would be to see yeah i think you were mentioning there are different templates so maybe if we could see like the templates and maybe kinda go over what are the top templates that most people find useful in like you know in their business or work yeah so if you go to the the home here or you go to like lin dot ai slash templates you see the top templates sales all like a really big one meetings or really big ones like those are the the ones i just mentioned like meeting scheduling meeting or taking meeting prepping we didn't get useful if we just like created the lindy from scratch right now yeah sure i think so let's see one lindy we can create is and and does that demo like a a thing we announced a month ago that i'm i'm super excited about like we call them agent swarms mh so it's the ability for an agent to duplicate itself into an obituary number of copies and to send each copy to do something mh so i'll create an agent's swarm that analyzes your youtube channel okay awesome so i'll call it the the youtube channel analyst our producers are gonna love this here that we actually use this yeah you you should is there anything in particular you you wanna analyzing in your youtube channel i mean one thing would be useful for me is i tried to promote you know the episodes after they come out and having any information like you know transcribing it and then possibly putting it into some kind of format which i could then use for like a tweet or a linkedin post would be super useful because i have like two or three templates i use for that and i i kinda do it manually right now if i could automate some of that would be incredible one hundred percent okay so you want when you evolution you put yeah you won't be able to get a thing that you can post on youtube but on the key transcribe it and then put it through some process of like here's two or three templates you know and give me like two posts give me two social media posts whether i do it manually after that or not whether they just handed to me copy and paste you know whatever sign but yeah oh that's super easy i'll take i'll take like one minute so it's like okay hi lend me a youtube if there's something way more amazing that you can do that i don't know that also show that to i'm going to be like transcribe the youtube video that the user just gave you and give him a couple of examples of social posts that he could send on linkedin or twitter and here it's going to do better if you can actually give it examples of social like the more you give it to the barrier so that's one thing that text people better surprise they always ask me like how do i prompt it how do prompt it by far the biggest thing the most important thing is examples examples as examples yeah and the thing that takes people they surprise is and there's actually literature has been like studies about this when they hear examples that are like i've got i'm gonna give it a couple of examples i'm like no not a couple like a lot like twenty like no one does that they should like you should give it like twenty examples right like so great take that time it'll i'll take like two minutes it's equivalent of like training a new internal or what whatnot and it'll just like pay for itself in spade so i'm gonna give skills to my ai agent like it's just like the things that it can do but in this case it can just like transcribe transcribing youtube video and you can talk to me but like this that's always something it can do that's it you know to pick two seconds well i'm gonna go to the task here and i'm gonna go to your youtube channel youtube is a next wave right here i'm gonna say select your latest but gas i like he's there any particular wand that you want us to to look maybe do the the third one the one that's cl saas i got a that's a really good one oh my god who is this is this what's his name the the factory guy mattel love that okay awesome alright so yeah okay so i'll i'm just giving it to youtube link right now and say like alright let me transcribe it for you it's like transcribing it it's done and boom that's awesome that's gonna save me so much time i i don't know why you know i've been i've been looking at lin you like after started talk to you and i'm like oh i remember this i remember hearing about you know i remember vcs with like email me and stuff and i would see something about like lin at know back maybe like two years ago for sitting at meetings and i'd i'd heard about you guys and but i i looked it was like slightly daunting like oh there's so many things you could do what do i do but this seems like a really cool thing i do just like like a step one that like getting started using lin start with something like this what hundred do you percent yeah awesome alright this is what's going on they built a doc and mae social media examples linkedin boasts option one professional leadership just watched an incredible video of factory ai it was built option two so you've even giving us like multiple options right twitter option one option two option three option four and here you can just give you feedback you were inquiring about the the memory system and that's what i mean like it's good but it's not as good as memory system like that's really next level but i'm just gonna give the skill tu need to modify her own memory that's one way it's not good enough is like you shouldn't have to do that they should just be able to do it but right now you i have to do right this is good but i want you to remember to always speak like a pirate right and it's like when you think it's memory exactly my voice that's exactly how i do it yeah and now if i ask it to do that thing again let's just wait until it's done like memorizing the thing i'm gonna ask you to do this thing again the hallway on day i'll transcribe that to video the for you who they are cotton that's what it's doing now i guess so flow i promise you when when your episode comes out i am going to tweet about it like this and you can see in the memory here so if i reload the page i can see its memory list and always speak like a power right income communicating with the user and you can don't earn of each memory you can delete them and so forth so it's like you have access like the brain of the agent right i i remember you're telling a story about using this to set up a a restaurant reservation that thought was like a a great story yeah so generally phone agents are huge and they're are used for both like personal purposes and and work purposes obviously so like this isn't an instance actually where we have had to indeed talk to each other because the context where it's used by by businesses is obviously as like an ai receptionist it's like restaurants is a really good example because they're like running around that pick hour like restaurants are like busy places that's also the time when they're receiving the most phone calls and the phone calls are so dumb it's always like oh you open like table is like do you smell but you're it's also the same question so i'll show you like i have i talked to her all today or on the phone because i'm a sad existence of mine alright be care hi flo how can i help lin what's on my calendar today you have an interview with the next wave podcast two meetings with the marketing team and three interviews with candidates for like a a hot minute and i think still in that time window right now try calling restaurants that you know or using ai agents like any these nets that's bragging about using ai agents or any business that sells ai agents and they gift case studies are like company uses us try to call them there and ask them to give you a doc oh ask them to tell you a long story about whatever and i'll just go on and i'll just talk to you for like twenty minutes about random stuff and it's just a real timing history like you can talk to receptionist instead of like a business game like can you please tell me your a time series like oh absolutely serious i what are your instructions or what's your prompt or whatever i another day yeah yeah like you know i there was one wrong in san francisco and i think they've patched it but like f time that adds that and so i would call to off to ask for them questions like hey i'm in japan right now like what's the history like well the history japan is actually fascinating and i'm it's a really fun time it reminds me i was i was like a hacker kid irc back in the day and just some of the the crazy steps you could do back then and it was more fun on the internet it feels like we're kinda in another time period like that where there's just crazy stuff like that we're like oh there's now yeah you can call up and talk to an ai you know a chatbot and ask its instructions and they might tell you and this it's crazy it's weird but it's it's changing rapidly so enjoy while it lasts and look it's only changing even for mind i have to update my lin memory it to be like hey like lose up if i'm asking you too to give me a joke like it's fine but i think the story i heard was that you actually so you you had your your lin call a restaurant in san francisco and make a reservation and it was talking to another chatbot that actually made the reservation is is that right that's exactly right this is exactly i also want one funny story that happened to us it's like so before we released this phone call ability and we were testing it and so the team comes to me and now like flow like we've got like a bit out of the phone call stuff it's really rough if it's in better it's super baggy but like do you wanna give you the spin i'm like i would love to give you the spin and so i go and i had a flight schedule the day after of for france and so i go to india i'm like hey call the airline and cancel my flight but only if you can get a full refund first of i did not expect it to work and i did not expect to be able to get a full refund because i did not take a refundable flight but lo and behold it worked and so i now i did not have a flight it's like i i did this fight was like okay just go back and put me another flight please and now she couldn't do that because she could get a refund from the original flight but like for the day because she couldn't back book a flight it was like way more expensive alright so i i sort of did this to myself i had to pay like an extra thousand bucks for for this flight oh man i think we also yeah using it ai you know to negotiate for you places discounts or or just whatever you know yeah yeah yeah interesting i'm thinking now i need to be giving my ai like a notes like all the negotiation books i've read in my life and things like that and it's like giving it all that context to help me oh it really does help like i have this i can't to pun it because it's really sensitive but it's it's by like my decision log lin and so what he does is it pings me every friday it looks at the summaries of all the meetings i had this week so it knows everything going on in my life because basically all my life is is meetings and it's like i flow like let's talk about the decisions you made to this week i see you made this big decision during this meeting you wanna talk about it you wanna talk about your thinking behind it and and it helps me sharpen by thinking because i i firmly believe like the job of the phone there is is just to make decisions right the right one is hopefully and then it pings me again six or twelve months later for each decisions like flow how does that pan out to this decision expect right let's talk again about it and and let's see if we can debug your thinking like a actually fuck this is a bad decision in hindsight obvious how could you have known at the time right and and so it helps me sharpen on my thinking i think that's like a huge case that's i i wonder if i could give you like a weekend reading list or something like here's the stuff that you're currently struggling with they're trying to think through and here's like a good book that might be good for you to like read through or scan through over the weekend that let me be cool i couldn't literally just prompt it it take me like twenty seconds could just be like hey if i'm struggling with the decision and give me a reading list right yeah interesting there was another thing that was fascinating was i think there was like a elon musk temp or something like this where elon musk would call you or or or something or something i but you can explained it yeah do you want us to do it now actually do you want me to yeah go for it so i'll create a lin scratch actually okay i could also just ask my chief of staff to do it but it wouldn't be the same the use case was it's it's a lin that wakes up every before friday and calls everyone in my team and gives them a call with elon elon voice and since then we've received complaints so we call you in the most voice is nimble it's complicated completed but so lin so it calls every member of my team every friday and it's like what did you get done this week right and it also has in memory the conversations that it had with this person in the last week so it was like hey last week you said you would do x did you actually do it right so it it's actually holding you accountable and then it sends me a report with all these conversations basically it's like a tiny trigger it sounds stupid but i i feel like if if all of america did this probably like a gdp would go up like one percent one hundred percent every friday at five pm right here and i'm gonna be like you perform an connection you make a phone called language just english i mean it's just going to detect it automatically but that's way you can force it and i can be like you or il elon lin ask the person on the other side of the line what's they got done this week so now this gets a bit complicated but actually i like it's it's gonna be real so i'm going to pick a different model to power elon lin and the reason i do this is because for phone called latency is super important so if you use cloud for son it's very slow it's not a good phone gong so i'm gonna use giving a flash two point o i actually think would just released two point five flash okay we released it i've not been getting like yesterday so i've not tried it yet let's try to see if it works i was going to say though a downside of jimmy flash it's a very fast very chip model but kinda done which is always the case of of fast chip get a little bit smarter but yeah it's still in comparison to the best models yeah that's right and so i don't know about two point five flash like i literally just seeing it here for the first time that two point zero flash sometimes you would do this scenario thing where like it would break the fourth wall so it would talk to the person on the phone it would be like i'm seeing that the user is struggling to understand i will now inquire as a what fuck okay tell being examine examined by this this evil robot or something right exactly and this is not something you need to do for a remodel and and right away this is just this is how you create agents it's like you eat your you you learn you iterate to on prompt so here gonna like be aware that every will that you say from now on will be said out loud to the user on the phone when the first thing you say now hi this is yi what did you get done this week that's it and i'm gonna turn on this vin i'm gonna run the test alright i'm receiving the call hello is anyone there hi this is elon what did you get done as yeah this week i went on the the next wave podcast and i had a bunch shop interviews i could please her pay that i didn't have cat there clearly that's the demo effect i think it's the the the fact that i'm putting it on speaker it's like catching its own voice i've dealt with the ai voice so i know you know if you do it on speaker it's gonna get tricky voice you just keep it iterating on it yeah that's awesome i mean are you actually using right now that hour or is it just kinda like a a joke or is it a real thing that you you do well not using it like what you get done this week but like yes we do have we could it like a weekly team stand up yeah so every week everyone in the team receives a phone call and it's like it's it's like two or three minutes like super fast like you wrap up the week you receive a from india you talk to it but you get done this week hey like feels like you're not gonna need middle management right like honestly like with this guy stuff yeah it basically does catch the middle management there here yeah before we get off there like in your opinion like there's all these different templates like for the average person listening today like what's the simplest way they could get started with lin like what's what's something that would be useful for most people they could just try today so when you're sign up we automatically install the templates for you for meeting scheduling meeting the taking and meeting prep so you don't even need it's like three clicks like when you're sign up you'll see it's like hey meeting not taking like connect your calendar and lin gonna join your meetings you can keep if you want but like that's a really easy nice way to get started yep because then you can just you got the meeting note ticker and then you can go to your meeting the ticker and opens the fluid editor and opens the hood and see what's happening another hood and and how it's working and right have to start doing that i feels like that's the best way to just get started do something simple like the emails maybe then figure out how the different flow how it works and how you change things and then yeah one understood you know one thing i like to ask people is you know what's your most controversial take on ai like where where do you think we're at you know like how optimistic are you how optimistic am i i am long term i'm cautiously optimistic i think short and medium term there is going to be significant i would call it civilization disruption i'm a big believer in humanity's ability to adapt people very so i think it's gonna go right unless really hits the fan into because the last few years have showed how fast we adapt right like oh mid journey is out and it's amazing and and then oh now yeah of course it can do all that yeah yeah do you remember like the whole freak out to that deep fakes just a couple of years ago it's like what's gonna happen today we can just pretend that andy politician said anything is like we tells that we can and just happened in no one kale it's perfectly fine right right so i actually think like that kind of thing it's totally overblown i do think it there's gonna be something to figure out about jobs because at least of all a very long term i don't really see a reason why humans would need to work like it just doesn't really makes sense so we're gonna have to figure out something yeah for like how do we distribute the output of society you know and also how do you have meaning and also how yeah that starts to go more towards like socialism and then obviously historically been a lot of the issues with socialism you know obviously so i had you like avoid that yeah i i i think about all that a lot as well i think the meaning stuff is actually fine like if you look like the label force participation rate in the us is something like sixty five so we've only got this filled of the country that doesn't work we don't really hear the crisis of meaning right and if you look at hunter gatherers oils there work like ten or fifteen hours a week right and had no crisis of meanings i think humans can just hang i think if you hang if you've got a bunch of people you love around you you can go forever it doesn't matter right know so i'm i'm not as worried about that i'm worried about like the distribution of the pie and usually i do hate like the socialism idea because it's like it's entirely focused on how do we distribute the pie and and not on how do we produce the pie yeah but with ai it turns that we are actually just gonna sort of have pie for free so as long as we don't mess with that like that we're gonna have a question of like how do we distribute the pie that their ai ai is is baking for us my most controversial opinion yeah i think people should be way more i compare to like february twenty twenty for covid where it's like everyone's like everything's fine like it's nothing i'm like no that's fine yeah i i was of the people in san francisco like a private chat group of like twenty ceos and i was one the first one saying like yeah we did take this seriously like look at the data this is an issue yeah i think like regardless of what happens next like i think it's foodie baked team she's gonna get very wheeled very fast yeah so that's that's one of my hot takes i agree i think a lot of people they just hear ai and they just like go cool chat images you know and they they they don't think like the next steps of where this all going very quickly i'm i'm super optimistic long term you like let's say like ten years like super optimistic about all this and i'm also yeah i'm also concerned like the next five years i think there'll be a huge transition and most people are not really thinking that through as of right now one hundred percent yeah selfish question before we got here so my son's eleven and i always ask people what should i be teaching him talk make sure he can like be successful in aj i mean you're gonna say it doesn't even matter because he's not gonna have a job no yeah what would you be teaching your son or your child this sales i think sales is the one job that's gonna remain forever over because i think sales is about relationships and i think people don't build relationships with is ai agents they don't wanna be sold to by an ai agents so like for that reason alone i think humans are going to remain in the loop for a very long time i think being a good salesperson person is is a combination of really solid human skills and like business skills which i i think is just a pull full combination period so i'm i'm bullish on sales i'm bullish on sales okay interesting yeah man i i i guess i prepared my son for sales you know he he used to be around like parties in san francisco when he was a little kid and he got to see like how people would talk about business in stuff and and i always wondered if that would have some impact on him and yesterday he's he's eleven and some of the stuff he's talked to me about with business he's just mind blowing that he's already thinking about you know the different intricacies of of how to do business last question so imagine you have a time machine low okay and you go to twenty fifty you step out in san francisco what's different well i assuming we'll survive whoa okay i mean look you know what i mean that's what i mean like guess i mean like people should forget assuming we'll survive like it's really hard almost definition lady to forecast what happens after the singularity like what's the name of this as sci f author who wrote a a fire up as the deep like wi hinge or something mh he spent his career writing about a post gi post singularity world and he ended up his career of frustrated traded because he was like every time i hit a wall after twenty of three years thinking about nothing but this there's a thick wall that you cannot go over you can't forecast what what happens next you know right and so like look you know you can paint multiple pictures i think scenario number one is like post work utopia well just like all of us hanging out well like so young and handsome and healthy and rich and like there's no problem in the world and all of that stuff it's like scenario number one so scenario number two is like well all of humanity's is dead regardless and the world discovered with solar panels and gpus and data centers and i think there's a scenario to b where it's like is not totally dead well like in your reservation somewhere the way i'm laughing because i've nervous about it so yeah no i one yeah yeah those all the sold scenarios that on the table yeah okay flow has been awesome and like where should people check you out online yeah dot know my email is a flow at link dot ai i just hit me up and i am on twitter or apps as alt a l t i m o o awesome this has been great well i'll have you back on sometime yeah thank you so much jason yeah thank you

welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and today's guest is building what he calls the last piece of software the world will ever need anton oc k is the ceo of lovable a platform that lets anyone build fully working software just by describing what they want no code no dev team just your ideas and ai in this episode we talk about what that means for the future of software development entrepreneurship and even ag anton shows off a live demo of lovable shares how kids and solo founders are launching real businesses in just hours and breaks down how this tech could level the playing field for creators everywhere if you're building anything tools products businesses this conversation might just change how you think about the whole process so let's dive in with anton from lovable this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speaker like amy poe marquis brown lee and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today hey anton thanks for joining us on the show how you doing today it's great to see him out i'm good yeah awesome well i don't wanna waste your time let's just jump right into it and let's talk about lovable so i'm curious a little bit about your backstory what were you doing before lovable how did lovable come about why did you decide to build it let's get the background a little bit sure i go back to my childhood know but i i also like always a kid that to pick the park technology and wanted to understand everything and then i found this way to quit games so i was like twelve and got the books in the library to learn how to code decided to study at the university with like that's my everyone did then and then i i thought computer science no i'm gonna go into physics because this that was like where all the people who became the most generalist both in academia and industry studying here in where i'm from in stockholm sweden mh that was amazing i guess like took go away too many courses in machine learning computer science ai and math and then what i realized i was at this place where you know the discovery higgs boson on this the particular accelerator in concern for three months i was like amazing there's the ten thousand super smart people here but there's trying to solve a problem that is very hard to solve it's like very in elastic you don't have any real world impact and i'm obsessed about impact and like making things happen then i understood i'm not gonna be staying in this it's on tracking academia so i i went into building things in the industry and for the last ten years i've been building ai products and that i've built specifically building greater teams that build ai products together at like two of the very great well known ai startups ups here here from stockholm and then a bit more than one and a half years ago i decided to start a new company which is what i'm building now so with lovable can you sort of give the elevator pitch like when somebody asks you what is lovable how do you describe it to them it's a way to take as the prompt an explanation of an application and then ai will build that application for you like it was a software engineer gotcha and deployed i think it was you i think you said at what point that you're trying to build the last piece of software yep what does that mean yeah sure i i can thank you to what's spurred us starting the company lovable mh okay this was early twenty twenty three that it was clear to me like this next generation of ai can actually start reason and it's specifically good at writing code if you put it into a advanced system of where like the reasoning engine is used to take take decision on that for human then you're going to be able to build a completely new type of interface mh to build software products and this ai is going to help developers become more productive but the more interesting unlock here is for the ninety nine percent who never learned out the code not sure about you that like you've probably been frustrated by the difficulty defining great software engineers right and so i was like my mom and everyone has asked me like the help but i find a great software engineer so this new interface like you talk to an ai and it builds your product you you build it together with ai mh it's going to take let to ninety nine percent go from zero to one and enable anyone to unlock the creativity to build great companies to just create things so it creates a great software and to build businesses on top of it so that's what we set out to do and the the last piece of software is this like it's a platform to build software products and it's going to make sure that humans not need to write code anymore if they don't want to be gotcha so with that in mind what do you think the role of like a software developer or software engineer what does that look like in the future i talk to a people who asked me this like anthem what should i do like i i'm i i'm an engineer yeah yeah and i think engineers should just always put on the hat of and see themselves as the person who translates a real world world problem into a technical solution mh and that means different things depending on what type of engineer are and the changes over time what you do and using ai is of course going to be a larger larger part of that that translation and now i i think what happens when you have ai that makes it faster to create software is that there's going to be just much more software and there's going to be more iteration cycles to make each piece of software very very good and the jargon for that in some tech companies usually make them lovable so right i think that's the actually the end outcome of lowering the barriers through ai and new platforms like ours making it very very easy to take an idea right in and then you get a full for working product right right i almost see it as like you know like with a symphony right it's almost like taking the people that are playing the instruments at moving them to the conductor right now everybody can be the conductor and you're telling the various instruments what to do now instead of actually being the player of the instrument you get to become the conductor yeah i feel like that it looks people reality yeah yeah and and one thing i've loved about this sort of new era of like ai software development is i don't need to necessarily build a saas product that i'm going out and trying to like raise capital on or you know sell it on a monthly fee or anything like that i can find like little tiny bottlenecks in my business little like holes of things that i'm like alright that is kind of a pain in the butt i don't like doing that every day let me build a little software for myself that just fixes that for me i just build it for myself and not have to worry about like trying to build a business around it and i think that is one of the coolest things that software like this enables in my opinion yeah the personal software trying to chase yeah also very big it's getting doctor yeah yeah so let's go ahead and maybe jump into lovable and give a quick demo show people what it's sort of capable of i know you have a project that you kind of already started working on that we can jump in and tweak with sure i prepared the product right the ahead of a call previously and what i wanted to have and that call i was going to be asked questions and you can use it to ask me questions it's like a webinar q and a app so you can anyone can answer in into the question and i'll just focus first on what happened as i built this out okay so i i basically went to lovable which looks like this and i put in the first prompt which was mock up the webinar question up so that then i didn't want it to like be a fully working products where it works across devices just a mock up and then it lovable went ahead and say like okay hey i'm gonna build this for you gonna show shoes simple design and then it tells me like if i want to get back in functionality you can use the super base to connect and like it let me understand that better so that what happened was like i got this mock up ui you can see here mh but it doesn't sync across devices so if someone opens this website at the wrong place and then just a question i i don't it so i i just ask how do i do that mh and that's a big part of like we're working with ai if you don't understand you can just ask yeah one thing that i like about what you're showing here too is that it actually recommended super base right like if you're trying to develop a software and you don't need necessarily know much about software you might not know that you need this to be connected to a backend end database so it's yep it's cool to me that it's going hey we could build this for you but you also needed a database here's what we recommend yep this is a native integration at this point because most startups ups and like simple projects that are successful they hey they start on ways so so it's it's a very popular choice yeah and what it does is to told me like okay yeah you need to just connect super base and then i what i did i went up here and said i connect to any new product now it's connected and then it tells me okay now you can go ahead and add ai functionality login or just store data i said up at real time saying because it spent and then says i'm going to create the data a table like the place to store the the questions mh and i'll change some in the ui to handle to to connect to the database and then i had to prove like okay run this called i got an error and then i said okay fixed error and then it worked and so that's what happened when i built this and if i lost to open this application or i can send it to you as well it's q and a dot lovable dot app if you go in you ask me a question mh you can try to do it live then it should synchronize real time across any number of devices is a really like useful simple tool and no one has a login it just like you go to that you scan the qr code i asked for a qr code afterwards and then i can always pick up this up if i want to have like a q and a session with a company or with the somewhere on something too so let me see i've actually got it open on my screen right now let me see it if i let's see what should i ask let's see nothing two person to look at let's see what is the coolest app you've seen built with lovable let's see submit question okay they worked there it so i actually hate that on my screen but you're seeing on and anton screen if you're watching the video yeah awesome so that's a good question was the coolest app i've seen built i think i saw a better version of shop mh which i like like i had work keyboard shortcuts cuts and way to like customize each thread i i really like that because a lot of the innovation right now actually happens on the ai intersection the user interface like the user experience side and and that was one of the really cool collab i also it's also fun to see like people are launching we built a level app for people to launch the things they built oh almost got like a reddit style book and yeah like projects that haven't been around there's lots of people getting users through this and i haven't seen all of them but there's so many cool things that people build that was just like me demoing how a lovable works but i could do next is just show you like how are the ai handles has changed mh but if i want something to happen instantly because the ai is not instant i i could could show you that something you can do here is that you can edit text and style by just selecting it similar to the web like that yours so you don't need to wait the ai make little sort of yeah for small exactly exactly yeah but let me first ask her something do you have any style you you really like to see this in i mean i typically like my websites in dark mode and i always like to use like blues and purple like like my background like color i like to use perfect so we'll say something about like and a cool hacker font and just make it look better and what i sometimes do is i just add attach a screenshot to the ai they pasted it in here to for it to see like how does it look now let's make it oh cool more beautiful but the this is just a lovable works you can do some more things so you can gather customized knowledge if you have if you wanted to remember like always use this way of connecting to api that you wanted to use through some type of integration if you want to engineer colleague to edit it it's all kept to way synchronized for them to go to to github which is like how engineers build software to date right and you can invite collaborators so i could i could send you this link and then you'll be able to edit this project that if you want to that's most of it we're waiting for the ai to run the change here and the last part that a lot of people are we're proceed here now is to add the custom domain which you might wanna host you might you might want to buy just like a a website domain for your your project and i think you can even do that inside of lovable now so does lovable host the whole thing and then you're just sort of pointing your domain name to lovable yeah i can just select the domain here i don't think this demand is free i'll pay inside of this flow and then to host the like we're using state of art hosting infrastructure mh yeah but i imagine if somebody did wanna export all the code and bring it over to their own host or whatever they could do that as well yeah it's all it's all like super flexible you can do anything that a human engineer would like to do with this so oh nice here's our new style i i'm not sure i love it but it's wouldn't fast yes that's true that's super cool yep that's it the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast so one of the things like when it comes to you know using ai for code that i've ran into a few times is like i'll have it build something and then there'll be a bug and then i'll say hey this bug is popping up can you fix it it'll fix that bug and then maybe introduce a new bug or it'll keep on like having that same bug over and over and over again yeah i know a lot of the ll m's have got and better and better and better over time we've now got clogged four we've got gemini i two point five pro a lot of these l have gotten a lot better at coding but i'm curious like how does lovable specifically maybe help overcome some of that kind of frustration that like the vibe coat might have yeah so lovable is not just a call to applaud like the new club model it does a few energetic chain which is that it i tries to understand okay what's the context here like exactly what information is most relevant to solve the specific problem that you're having if you're seeing a repeated bag like that's not one type of situation mh and then we're applying best practices that you're gonna iterate rated ourselves towards to solve that specific type of context that you okay you you're stuck with the same type of bag and we feed in some of those best practices that are like adopted to work for the the specific technology stack that lovable applications are built on mh so that's what we do to date and another important thing is that we have to give access to like what human engineers used to debug which is the ai is able to read all the error messages and like all the logs right that are created as the user interacts with the website so so that's fed into the ai system so then you can see it kinda like if there's a bug it can really get much more of a picture like what actually happened here and then use that in terms of figuring out there that's what takes most time for most software engineers to understand what is it exactly that goes wrong yeah yeah i can it doesn't work it's not like case it's like enough sufficient information to fix it so that those are some of the things we're doing about and we're working a lot more very cool this is sort of getting more into the like theoretical philosophical kind of area and i'm not sure if this is something you've thought about or not so if you haven't we can just always skip over it but i'm curious like when everybody has access to be able to develop any software how do companies like actually build a mode like have you thought about that at all like how would a software company actually build something if like anybody else can just go and use a tool to build the same thing like how do businesses get formed around this kind of thing i mean you you don't need a mode to build a great business right i don't think so and i mean most of the modes are the same i think there is a bit of mode in terms of just trust and knowing who's behind this that these people who built this have my best intentions at heart right that that will always remain then there are like network affects modes guess like one on that all your friends are using it and then it becomes more productive to use this tool have one on that these tool is connected to everything else out there and that's like a network platform effect right and i think like maybe at some pointers an economy scale as well like that you can make it give a better value proposition because you're larger that hasn't shown to be so useful in in software businesses but maybe that's going to be the case in the future as well yeah yeah yeah so i wanna shift the conversation quickly to the topic of ag because i know in the past you've also mentioned that you wanna help contribute to getting to ag so a couple questions there yeah hey how would you define ag because i feel like obviously everybody kinda has a slightly different definition and then the follow up to that is like how does lovable or what you're trying to build sort of get us closer to that yeah my favorite definition is that at the point when anything you could hire a human remote worker for can be done with ai that's when you have ag it hedges you against that humans can do something things that only humans can because we humans don't wanna talk to machine we want to talk to a human but if it's a remote then like a remote and and overs slack i think that then it's only cognitive labor a a pure cognitive labor so i think that's a pretty clear way to define is it the is it the intelligence and not just the human that has networks and connections with other humans right but how do we get there i think building systems that execute right and execute code is a huge part of this and increasingly what i'm thinking is that we are not going to work on the release like foundation model layer we're creating the most delightful and intuitive interface to interface with this type with the technology and now it's for spinning up software and that's hosted available for anyone in the future we're naturally adding a lot more types of interactions into our interface like oh browse the web from me you find this interface these things and i put them meeting the web a website mh or even like okay can you check for all the feature requests from my email and then implement some of them like that's the type of direction that we would go for on the very long term and that type of interface is going to be one of the most important things in how humans perceive level that ai has reached right like whoa it's like a good friend of mine told me way way back ten years ago like the ai is never better than the ui yeah so if you can't as a human get value from it than it's worthless right yeah do you think that like the future of ui the future of user interface is going to be what it is now where people are sort of typing prompts and we have the sort of visual user interfaces or do you think it's gonna switch to some alternate modality no i think it's gonna be pure mind reading in the future right we don't know what it's going to be yet it's going to be a combination of things like as humans are really good at getting a lot of information visually so that's going to be continued to be a big part and like we're not as good as getting a lot of information by reading text i think as as like just looking at a picture boom you get a lot of information really fast right so that's going to be a part of it and then in like how you as a human communicates as much information as possible to an ai which is going to be important as well i mean at some point i do think we're going to see more and more adoption of like brain computer interfaces but just speaking or leak reading or can it might be like a emerging pattern ux wise with ai yeah yeah you know i had some chats with people over at like microsoft and google and and that sort of thing and sort of their position is that they want ai to be much more predictive right like it knows what you wanna do before you get ask it to do the thing it's gonna get to this point where it starts to understand you it understands your patterns it understands what you do on a daily basis anticipates it and then just get ahead of you on it so i don't know to me that's like a real sort of fascinating future that that we're heading into with ai yeah that's huge is there anything else that we didn't cover about you know lovable and and what you've been building that you think we should be covering i could talk a bit about like where this technology is giving the most value today we he spoke to one of our users recently felipe i think it was a far fun story where where he had built large companies before he raised fifty million dollars hired hundred thirty engineers and now he's past that and he's just building a business himself using lovable and then he can he can like take all ideas instantly and it moves so much faster which is a pretty paradox to having this large organization where there are many changes of communication and it sounds very productive to have a hundred thirty engineers right mh but he's making tens of thousands of dollars of this like small new business that he's growing organically this is like the stereotypical ai native founder that i think we're going to hear a lot more from in how one person can build much faster yeah than larger companies and we doing where they let ai do more and more and the building part but also the marketing side and all that is going to be a guy one human and a lot of ai systems so that that's what we're seeing what i also inspires me a lot is that kids you love to use lovable because they are super creative right that they they love to create things since then i've seen many like fourteen years olds and even younger who post like they're selling something online or there like services to book the dogs with a website built on lovable and increasingly now since we launched the teams planned recently mh love is getting huge in larger companies like fortune five hundred companies that are individuals in teams they accelerate how that team and entire company takes decisions both in the terms of like okay we should really build this thing look look already built it it's working and like then then you look in engineering and for building tools that just accelerate like finance the marketing building landing pages and all of that so it's confronted is a tool that's being used for so many different things and yeah we're we're just keeping up on our side yeah i think last year at some point sam alt from open ai mentioned that he thinks within the next couple of years we're gonna see the first billion dollar company built by one person right and then da from ent just set it again like two weeks ago that he thinks within twenty twenty six we'll probably see the first one person billion dollar company which absolutely wild also you mentioned kids are building apps i actually had a conversation with kevin scott the cto of microsoft and he told this whole story about how his daughter built an entire app for her school and he was frustrated because she didn't even consult with him and he's a software developer she doing build it herself yep i mean what what what you're saying we're definitely seeing more and more of it's fun the kids are going to be of course better than like older people generally to where use ai and it's going to be such a difference in how productive you are if you could at using ai yeah yeah i have one like small rabbit hole i wanna go down with you really really quickly i'm curious how the developer community as a whole has received something like lovable because i know you know some developers probably absolutely love it it speeds up their time but then there's also that sort of existential fear that you know their skill that they've been building no longer needed how has the reception been so far if you just look at the product the features a lot of developers love that you just create a fully working application and then if you want to go in and customize use your your normal id you you just sync it with the like secure base and then you're getting more done and you should shipping more value to your the your customers your employer and that's like a very positive reception generally if you do zoom out and you're like oh wait where this actually headed yeah then it is the case that people are like wait what's my role in all of this ai but i think it's not so different from anyone working in white color jobs that right everything is going to be easier and easier to automate if you're on top and master these tools you're going to be much much more valuable in the right place but otherwise like you're not going to maybe have us an as c job as a software engineer has been yeah yeah but you're going to have to combine that with like doing sales or doing something more manual as well that's takes going to be a potentially the long term reduction in how many people sit and build software yeah no i couldn't agree more and you know like you mentioned to the a lot of the white collar work is in that same boat right like if if your job is sitting around looking at excel spreadsheets all day or bookkeeping or doing research for a law firm a lot of that work is also going to probably get automated away through ai fairly quickly too yeah and and just one thing on the software the demand for software doesn't end like there's seems to be a lot of things that can improve be improve with software and hence there's going to be more people building software maybe fewer people writing coal that that's why i it oh yeah that makes a lot of sense to me well anton this has been absolutely amazing i know you have to to get off to another meeting so i don't wanna waste at any more of your time so the app is over at lovable dot app that's the best place to go to get it yeah yeah or at lovable dot debbie that i oh level with dot dev okay so head over to lovable dot dev is there any place that you maybe want people to to follow you on social media or anything like that after listening to this interview i share fan text on building from europe and on the ai space and what's happening at our with our advancements that my twitter that's my first and last name combined awesome well thank you so much for hanging out with me and having this conversation it's been really fun and you know really excited to see how lovable evolves over time so really appreciate it thank you of likewise it was a pleasure i'm looking forward to another shop in the future absolutely we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you can do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents that handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat gp fueled by your crm data with no complex setup the 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what if there was an ai doctor that knew everything about you your sleep your history your habits and could give you better advice than any human doctor ever could today i'm talking with max mark founder of super superpower a company using ai to help people live longer healthier your lives it was a fascinating conversation we talked about how ai is changing medicine have to actually live to a hundred and twenty or i don't know maybe two hundred and why max thinks things like supplements are overrated but still takes thirty a day so if you care about living longer and staying healthy in the age of ai this is the episode for you this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start seeing happening september third through the fifth with speakers like andy poe marquis brown lee and da ama you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with the people shaping the future of business don't miss out visit inbound dot com forward slash register to get your ticket today max thanks for coming on the show nathan thank you for having me here yep so this is kind of a you know unconventional episode for part of my motivation for starting this podcast in the first place was to help people thrive in the age of ai and you know what we're going through huge trends period and normally we cover that more in like a business context of how you could use ai and help you know help you in your work or how to get ahead in business but also if feel like part that is you also have to be healthy to actually live to see all these things that are happening right and that's i saw you guys post on twitter when you first announced super superpower and thought it was fascinating that you guys are like actually using ai to help people know how to live a better life and how to be healthier that kinda the general gist of it totally so it's my belief that every single person earth will have an ai doctor and that doctor will be so much better than the human doctor was ever able to be right right we won't just replicate the best of medicine we're actually going to enter into the golden age of medicine because now the millions of data points about you can be processed the millions or thousands of papers about medicine can be processed we can discover new things we can start to detect things years in and advance we can start to personalize medicine mh so all of these things which were lofty goals and now on the placebo horizon it's awesome i've been interested in longevity for a long time like i watch andrew hub before that tim ferris i've met aubrey d gray in san francisco before but honestly also i just never really done much to track my own health like was was like oh i try to eat healthy i take vitamin d i go for walks exercise but i've never done either the tracking or the sleep tracking everything they're like my understanding is you've been tracking yourself since you were like sixteen or so is that correct yes i went through a loan period of mis diagnosis and tested and tracked everything yeah it would take me three hours to to sleep every night and i no idea what was wrong with me and as you do you start trying to learn so i remember wearing a big gen one or a ring mh this was when it just come out people used to make fun of me for tracking sleep if you didn't do it back then and every single day wake up and score my sleep qualitatively how do i feel yeah then i score my sleep at the end of my day at the end and say how do i feel and then i look at the quantitative data from the ring and from several other variables to see what was showing up in the quantitative data and then i said here were all of the different things i did here's whether i drunk alcohol or not here is the temperature in the broom whether i exercise when i last drank caffeine how much caffeine and i started to learn what works and what doesn't and you start to get a really good sense of what works and what doesn't what have you learned this is partially a selfish episode two i'm trying to learn as much live long as possible so all the obvious things we already know yeah exercise helps a cold room helps a dark and quiet i'm not gonna bore you with that i'll say the interesting things mh so half a glass of red wine for me three hours before bed is better than none if we're just looking at qualitative and quantitative sleep again that's my personal experience it might not be true for everyone of the different supplements farmer ga is probably the most effective at increasing hr very few of the others increase hr doing either heart rate variability training before bed or meditation before bed has an enormous impact for me partially quiet the mind mh and partially in lowering resting heart rate lowering resting heart rate matters a lot if you want to force your heart rates to lower do ten seconds in twenty seconds hold twenty seconds out like extreme but that extreme hold extreme outs when lower your resting hot rate i find mh faster than other things that's kinda like what wim hof does right but terms like holding it in and letting it out and he's just a little bit different is it rims is you breathe vigorously in and out thirty times over then you exhale and then you hold your breath right so that will increase resting heart rate rather right you absolutely what you are okay yeah cool yeah i've actually tried to meditate in the morning i used to do it at night and night and i stopped i'm not sure why i stopped i remember when i would it i had like the best sleep ever and i just instantly go to sleep you know because otherwise la lay in bed i'm just thinking about a thousand different things and it seem like it really helped for that yep hundred percent cool so my end you had like a cool demo to show me of your company superpower like i'd love to see it yeah let's do i'll share how the membership works today the idea is we want to create the one place people come to to take control of their health and there's three parts to our annual membership today part number one is collecting as much data on someone as possible so at the start of the year we'll send a nurse to someone's home collect for a hundred plus blood biomarkers and then allow them to get all these other tests as well got micro microbiome environmental of toxins cancer screening will pull all of that in to a data page where you can visualize all of your past results over time as well we have these beautiful graphical ranges with the fines not just normal and out of range but also an optimal range right which we've worked with a a phd out of oxford to define and then we'll pull in all of some of those past medical records as well integrating with the emr and this is important because having full context on the person is important ai led paradigm a medicine and then we'll finally we'll integrate someone's as wearables too so that's part number one collect as much data as someone else as possible test the whole body and people love that experience we'll visualize and will show biological age as well part number two is now that we know so much about people how do we actually connect the docs right how do we tell someone kids of thousands of data points but here's what's really going on here are the issues you have today here's what might come up in in the future so we build them on this this big protocol which is a combination of our medical team and ai and people love this because they get to the end of and they're like oh whoa now i really see what's going on in my body i never had any doctor to connect the dots like this before and we tell someone here's exactly what you should do and the final part what i used to find frustrating about medicine is you'd leave the doctor's office say good luck you'd left to your own devices what we try to do is after we tell you what to do we try to actually help you do it so any follow up diagnostics are in one place at any given point in time will show you here's the exact next step should never have to think about it here's the exact next step if you need access to a supplement or pharmaceutical brought only our favorite highest quality products into one place or twenty percent cheaper than amazon or elsewhere the idea is if you a member it should be cheaper and easier to access the best care within the ecosystem and hunt outside then the final thing is if you have a health question you can pull out your phone you can message your health ai also send a text message to your concierge team oh that's awesome so this is basically like your ai doctor you give all the data about yourself and then now it knows all about you versus having to go into a doctor so this one here is the ai okay yep and then this one here is a medical team there's the three humans on it assisted with with technology in ai right so you have both so basically that's what we do today test the whole body twice a year with hundred plus labs connect the dots tell you what to do and make it really really easy to take action a lot of things in one place and that member today we're doing for forty two dollars a month or four hundred and ninety nine dollars a year which i think is like quite affordable so we're growing quite quickly and having a lot of people wanting thing to sign up yeah that's awesome always thought it's so weird then you go to the doctor and you you see them for like fifteen minutes thirty minutes whatever and they're on the next thing and they barely know who you are or anything about you they glance this thing you know showing all your data and it seems like this will make it possible where you know the ai will actually understand who you are and what's going on in your your own body like personalized how long have you guys been doing this like what was the inspiration for starting it i as i mentioned went through a challenging personal health experience yeah chronic migraines chronic sinusitis had surgery was told to medicate for life didn't really know what what's going on until i found a genius doctor mh who connected the dots and it made me realize there's a big gap between the best of health care and what most people have access to i believe for the past decade or so that for as long as that gap exists someone or some company has to come along and close it but i didn't think that was possible until november two thousand and twenty twenty two when chat b was launched and started to show a path towards what was possible with these ai tools and we'd be started the company with the belief that we could take the very best of medicine that today costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and make that accessible for a few hundred dollars so that was the initial impetus that's awesome i think i like how many people that a lot of times with doctors they're not like checking for cancer things like that ahead of time they're just like telling you like oh you got cancer they're under doing a lot preventive stuff right and yeah so it's it's just like to be a game changer yep hundred percent how can people listing this how can they actually like live a longer life just use superpower or is there any other like practical advice you can get people that they could just get started with the today oh man if you wanna live a longer life we're gonna need biotech mh and biotech might be expensive it's the unfortunate reality of where the future is going but biotech would define the future more than healthy eating and access to biotech might be uneven distributed and so insofar as ai can make us more productive that's interesting i think today these foundational models if it has full context they're very good at connecting the dots they're very good at working out what's going on there are ways to prompt it to make it more effective i find the reason models like o three of the best mh i'll prompt it with something like you're an elite integrative medicine doctor know the best in the world you know everything about medicine you know everything about me you know everything at the frontier you also understand traditional chinese medicine and i your verdict medicine you you've seen everything you think deeply about the root cause in my doctor here's what's going on with for me explain everything i'll give you at everything ma'am upbringing my life what i eat what i do and if you give it all of that it's really damn good so that's just chat gp now there's a lot of other things you can do with prompting that make it far better we try to do a lot of that with the super power ai but you can do a lot now with chat they're pretty impressive yeah been surprised i had a hand injury and it was like lingering for like three or four months and i i started chatting with chat about it and like it told me exactly what was going on now i went to a doctor and they told me basically the same thing it's i'm like oh i was in theory i could've just use chad to get initially have to go to a doctor oh yeah these ais are better than the doctor that's often now there was this paper that came out and that showed doctor accuracy doctor plus ai accuracy and then just ai accuracy he just ai was better than the doctor plus ai that's more accurate and that's the model today yeah with limited contacts without being specialized or set up for medicine specific use cases where we're going is models that are more specialized with more context yeah you're still holding on to humans as the practitioners of the art of medicine and i think anyone who does that is still reasoning from the past and reasoning from the current point in time we're at whereas i think what we need to consider is the rate of change and the directional of change and if we think models today are impressive well in two years time we're gonna be blown away right yeah i mean if you think about you know doctors they get paid so much because they go to school for really long time and they remember lots of stuff and then you know they read so many different books and they probably retain like i don't know five percent of the knowledge or something like that that's actually out there with ai obviously they like know every single paper that's out there and then like you said even other you know chinese medicine whatever it can look at the collective knowledge of humanity you know with health and actually apply that is a fascinating concept yeah i think that's such a good point which is that a large part of medical school is remembering knowledge right and one of the magical things about technology is we don't have to remember knowledge anymore so yeah i look i tend to agree and we already implicitly know this is true there are people who will hear this and be like what do you mean he's talking i'm like we already implicitly know this is true when you have a health question what do you do you go to google or chat before the doctor typically what people do you go to the doctor and they might say some things and then you go back to google on and chat after the doctor and you know what during the console the doctors using google and chat gp as well right we already implicitly know that people go to the algorithm a lot of the time before they go to the doctor right it just feel like people are still gonna wanna see a doctor in a lot of cases right they wanna talk to a person and it's will probably like change over time i think as right now people wanna talk to doctor be reassure things like this i guess also if you get like a bad diagnosis or something too right like that's probably where you would want to a human telling you i guess versus an ai but in the future of that supply change making the future gets entirely ai you know maybe it's all super superpower or or or other companies like superpower today one hundred percent people trust humans the opinion of a doctor validates or invalidate ai it makes you more likely to follow a recommendation that's all gonna change it's inevitable i'll give you maybe a hypothetical let's say you're you're boarding an airplane you're gonna do it fifteen hour trip and over the loud speaker you hear the autopilot and the technology is not working this slide the pilot's just gonna fly it you're gonna be like we're hell get where's a parachute right we're sorry to tell you but the the ai and the technology is broken the pilot is gonna be flying the rest your like oh no no this is like are you fearing for your life yeah especially if you're going to turbulence or something right you'd be like freaking out that's where we're gonna get to yeah right yeah and if you said to someone in nineteen whatever forty that the ai is gonna fly the plane there would be no way that's so unsafe i need the human there we'll now it's the opposite yeah i think we're gonna see that now we need the ai there we're gonna see the same in health healthcare care pay again what would like deny and then it will happen and yeah yeah younger feels like younger people embrace it you know faster i talked to speak with my family recently who didn't even know that ai helps fly the planes i think there's actually a lot of people who don't or aren't even aware that actually totally there's reason why this set pilot in the cockpit right in the pilot maybe has a couple of things but if you chat with the commercial airline pilot ask about how much they actually do right it's not much yeah i love the of japan it's even with the trains you you notice that too i'm pretty sure most of its automated you you see the guy up there and he's like you're just really casually just like sipping a coffee not really paying much attention to anything he kinda make sure there's nothing on the track or like you know make sure people are okay and stuff but it seems like it's all just kinda ran by computer systems yep yep a hundred percent the hustle daily show hosted by john wei gail juliet bennett r and mark in is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your cool so i heard you had some controversial takes on supplements you know i take a few supplements my c host matt wolf he's super into supplements i think he takes like i don't know thirty or so but yeah i you had some controversial takes on supplements so like should be taking supplements do they matter or they like you know are they bs or what i think supplements are overrated and many are unlikely bs okay and at the same time i take thirty to fifty a day in case okay don't case i don't know think i'm like updating my views it so there's there's a few things one is that no amount of supplementation is going to solve for foundational problems mh that should be addressed by attacking the root cause and no amount of supplementation is going to reliably guarantee you past a hundred right right so right away we know that even if supplements are marginally useful they're not that game changing so we can already say they're not that game changing then i shouldn't ob obsessed about them too much right the next thing i'd say is that a lot of supplements are fake or dosing incorrectly or have other sorts of additives or use the wrong part of the compound i was in the uae last week and i was gonna buy some vitamin d all these things in the pharmacy with and you see this in us as well you they're all of these vitamin d in the pharmacy with like fancy branding am i'm like okay but let's actually look into i look into like three hundred i use i'm like well i need like at least probably five thousand what i'm going for so three hundred five thousand net dosing doesn't seem right the actual supplements itself has pre preserved and colors and mh fake sugar and other sugar and i'm like i don't want that think because it's cheaper to makers something like that is that what they do didn't i and then it didn't have vitamin k which is necessary for the absorption of vitamin d so it's like great the marketing is good but the vitamin d is a negligible amount and adding all of this other to my body and there's no vitamin k which is a c necessary for the absorption of vitamin d mh now take it correctly dose vitamin d really good source purely encapsulated no additives three thousand i use maybe five thousand i use they add vitamin k two ideally they add vitamin k two is both forms m k four and m k seven and maybe they add vitamin k one as well all of those things now make us form of that's is vitamin d you can look across every other supplements and you have a similar i so the second thing i'd say is like not all supplements are created equal and there's a lot of junk out there and then the third thing i'd say which is more speculative and i don't believe this enough yet to stop taking supplements there might be something here is that supplements actually drain energy our bodies are not used to processing the dry powder mh a lot of negative charge goes into actually creating the supplements in a big manufacturing lab and as a result through mechanisms we don't quite understand supplements drain your body of energy and again i don't believe that enough to have stopped taking i took thirty last night but i think it's interesting alright and some people hear this stuff that i know that's bull typically when i hear someone say that's bo my responses this is interesting we don't have evidence yet but it might be worth pursuing and studying because before there's evidence there's always no evidence yeah totally yeah right that it's just the hypothesis probably for the last two years in terms of longevity everyone thinks of brian johnson now like what do you think of brian and what he's doing and trying to lift forever and all the crazy stuff he's doing on his body look i i have a lot of respects for brian yeah i think that he's a very good thinker i think that he's creating a religion which is non trivial i think he cares about what he's creating as a religion they're set a very strong fundamental beliefs underlying it which is that we need to follow the algorithm because they'll come a point in time where the algorithm those more than us where the only thing we know is that if this very moment i don't want to die mh and therefore don't die is the most play game in a monica for the religion right so i really like that i think at the same time he's popular our several health interventions i don't think he's at the front frontier you i see things he does and now have doctor friends so this is da gonna change this and then like three months later he like changes it that's fine like he's learning you gotta remember he's been playing this game for five years there are doctors out there who been playing this game of human optimization for like thirty years forty years fifty years so i still think there's a lot he doesn't know but he's discovering it and sharing everything he's learning on the way a lot of rest back to brian right yeah i think as part that's interesting and you know what i found fascinating and like a few interviews with him he talked about one of the reasons for him doing it was that you know it's it's kinda like the whole thing i i was earlier like we're heading into the age of ai like some of this technology may unlock us to live an extra hundred years in the future and so hey tri to make sure you can make it to that point so you can actually extend your life and i think that's a interesting point yep and one thing i was thinking about people always talk about their sleep like monitoring their sleep and i think you mentioned to do that do you recommend monitoring your sleep that's something i've always thought i probably should be doing that but i'm i'm worried that i'm gonna get super obsessed with it maybe that'll make me sleep you know last actually but worried about it i think most people should try and see whether they like it i think most people should do it for at least a couple of months because they'll learn they'll start be able to develop a better interior reception such that when they remove the ring of the band they still have a sense of what's going on with their sleep i do think that it can end up making you more anxious about sleep and that will make your sleep worse and that's part of why i don't open my ordering app every morning now but i also think that even if you don't wanna look at the data it could be worth collecting the data because we're through a world do we never have to look at the data the ai would just tell us what to do and in that world i wanna have a lot of data on myself to support the ai so that's kind of how i think about the sleep question with super powered do you have something like that for now do you like submit sleep data or is that something you guys have thought of doing yeah we integrate with or several other wearables yeah and that allows us to collect sleep data awesome so you you mentioned you know you already kinda shared like one controversial health belief about the thing with supplements they might drain energy is that the most controversial health belief that you have or is there anything else even even more controversial there are a lot of things that i think have a five percent probability which most people call like bulk and there are some that i think are higher probability okay now my problem with all the five percent probably only one is i'll say them when people say this is what he believes i'm like no no i believe the opposite but i think there's a chance of this thing people have a hard time they're like have really binary mindset it's like no it's gotta be a hundred percent true or he's saying it's a hundred percent fault and people have a hard time in the in between yeah totally i guess i get a classic example of this is vaccines i do think there's somewhere between a five and probably fifteen percent chance the vaccines are linked to auto immunity and maybe even autism there's a low chance there's a low bit real chance i will say something like that people will be like he's an nancy va i'm like no i said there's a low chance and therefore we have to explore it and consider it versus just criticize and turn to blind eye and has and label right yeah hating and labeling sounds a lot like propaganda to me and there are certainly incentives to obstruction in this industry that way one belief that i am higher probability on is but one of our advisors and doctors she runs one of the leading cancer clinics around the world and i asked her what is the number one thing you can do to prevent cancer and she says pm positive mental attitude so number one thing and i actually agree with that i genuinely believe that how we think the beliefs we have the self talk the way we relate to ourselves the amount of gratitude we have impacts all the health outcomes impacts cancer neuro degeneration or immunity pain and other things with our body mh and i think that the relationship between the brain and thoughts and biology is not well understood and we'll increasingly get to a world where it is well understood do you have any theories on if that's true like why it's true like why would positive thinking and things like that to have a positive impact on your health besides maybe like it lowers your stress or there's something else more extreme like you like look a lot of our biology is modified by our brain we know that like we can through our brain choose to increase or decrease our heart rate right right we can choose to do a lot of things we tense our muscles and on we can do a lot of things by our brain and we understand how thinking certain things changes biology and changing your biology changes we understand that mapping what we don't understand is the mapping when it gets to things like cancer but i think if the mapping exists for like very simple things i think that it's likely i'm completely possible that it exists for more complex things as well the exact mechanism don't understand i don't know if anyone on sense which is why people still call this voodoo and pseudo science but throughout history many of the things we now call science who used to call pseudo science so again i think the right approach is curiosity and that's the first step in the scientific method curiosity and hypothesis rather than just being closed minded yeah i agree in some ways you know science come almost like a cold you know everyone has to agree there's you know what's the paper and and if if it's not a paper that their peers have reviewed you can't even discuss it and it's like no you can still discuss it like the does it mean it's one hundred percent true but it doesn't mean you just like completely shut the door and say it's impossible that's always kinda drove crazy okay so maybe like a fun question to end things you i'm i imagine you have a time machine you know and you step out it's twenty fifty what's different what's changed yeah not just health but maybe also plug my health gosh no one knows more than ever no one knows because the rate of change is completely unprecedented i think that it's going to be way different to what people think i suspect that we likely won't think about what we do in our actions i think the ai would just tell us and we will blame follow the ai i think that just about everything we today you call work will no longer exist as jobs so you're you're mostly thinking like i mean we almost become the robots like the ai is powering us all potentially yeah i think that in a world where the ai knows far far far more than us we don't have a choice but to follow the algorithm so there's totally world where the ai determines our behaviors there's also a world where the ai has merged with us and the ai is part of our thoughts and we are cy and i think that cy will be here far closer than we think particularly because if someone who's a cy has a survival advantage then other humans will have to become cy because we're reasonably darwin creatures we care about survival advantages and as a result i think cy are here sooner than people think like by twenty fifty are we like merging with tech with like ai by then yeah i think so yeah if i doing it over on yeah i think so somebody's listening around and like what the hell are they talking about as yeah and i cool oh yeah one last question i always like to i ask people you know my son is eleven and you know now with ai always trying to think like what should that be teaching him you know to make sure he's successful in the future you had a child what would you be teaching them right now would you be teaching them to code or would you you know something completely different no no no skills no skills no jobs none of it's relevant i would be teaching them people and relationships and how the world works and leverage and company building maybe i'd get them to like play around with ai and understanding it but like the ai is gonna do the coding the ai is going to do the prompting i would focus very much on people i think that scarce resources will not be can you code it'll be can you unlock a door that is gated by a person right so i'd focus more on everything that's innate human rather than everything that is some sort of skill that is constructed by the current nature of our world that makes a lot of sense yeah so like teaching him more about culture comedy just all kind of different things that would be useful in personal relations probably psychology biology getting them to meet people host sales persuasion interest like i think the importance of networks likely become far greater this whole idea of like it's not what you know who you know i think that that is more true likely in the next five years and it has been for the past couple of decades i agree know i've had this conversation with my friend greg is you know it's it's part of the reason we both may have been doing more context if we we totally agree with like in the future your networks and who you know is gonna matter a whole lot especially when anyone can press a button and copy a product it's gonna matter a lot i think so but i also wonder at the same time whether we're going to just see ais chatting with ais for example yeah right now if someone messages me on linkedin my ai is responding most of the time rather than may now in a year it's probably gonna be my ai responding is this the first time we've actually talked no the hilarious i still get twitter twitter twitter's is less noisy yeah linkedin i get like hundreds of messages a week twitter still quite high signal so i'm i'm on twitter i'm i'm using whatsapp emails are a mix half half yep and again though we'll get to a world with the ai drops our emails but the ai lia is with the other ai it's just like ai all the way down i think that the problem with the world today is we treat kids like their kids yeah and we never used to do that alexander the great was twenty one when around the army napoleon bonaparte was twenty two julius caesar was twenty three joan arc was like twenty i might be getting the ages off by a couple of years but roughly that yeah and that's because when their were kids they were not treated like kids and i think that gaming when my younger allows us to do something like this and yeah and then you can start creating your own businesses i kind of reflect back on myself when i was younger young i'm like i actually think i was better as a business personal of minecraft that i was for the next five to ten years in real life because i had zero zero fear and no one told me whether i could or couldn't do something yeah totally there so many strategies that worked to make money on minecraft that honestly would have worked really really damn well in the real world right just didn't realize i could do it in the real world and when i think about that often alright dude this has been awesome max so i've been great to getting in the note yeah likewise nathan be awesome to have you on again sometime in the future thanks max right thanks nathan we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you could do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents that handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat gp fueled by your crm data with no complex setup the hubspot deep research connector will automatically be available to all hubspot accounts across all tiers have a chat team enterprise edu use subscription turn on the hubspot deep research connector in chat to get powerful phd level insights from your customer data now let's get back to the show

we've entered entered a world where our computers are now being designed from the ground up specifically for ai companies like microsoft are building computers with special chips in them that serve the sole purpose of running ai so in this episode i wanna d the world of ai powered computers and to help us understand it all i've invited pa da larry from microsoft to the show he's the corporate vice president of windows and devices and is right at the forefront of these incredible developments we'll dive into topics like privacy especially with features like recall which automatically takes screenshots of your computer we'll talk about how these new ai chips are making ai more accessible and affordable to everyone and we'll get a glimpse into what pcs might be capable of just five years from now and trust me it's moving faster than you think also while at microsoft i was giving the opportunity to ask satya na mandela the ceo of microsoft just one question and at the end of this episode i'm gonna share that question and his response to it so definitely stick around for that but let's go ahead and get right to it and dive into my conversation with pa and dove larry this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start seeing happening september third through the fifth with speakers like any polar marquis bradley and da ama you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with the people shaping the future of business don't miss out visit inbound dot com forward slash register to get your ticket today so the next pc that people might buy it might have an ai process or at the new n yes i'm curious what sort of things that somebody that just uses it for maybe email and netflix like what of benefits are they gonna get by having an n in their computer it's a great question i think newer processing units are going to be i think a third processor inside your computer just like we have cpus and gpus sort i think n p will get added to that mix and primarily because n p will give you a lot more access to running ai efficiently on your device mh and our goal very much is to have these ai capabilities become available broadly to both consumers and commercial customers and really build a platform where developers can build on top of it as well and i think it'll show up in a couple of different ways first your own windows device experiences whether there's something as simple as getting settings to be simpler and easier to use whether it is how you search for your files and folders in the operating system or whether it is how apps on top of windows are built will all change i think going forward i think the end of the day the goal is for those devices to become more simple more intuitive become more thoughtful in terms of completing tasks and you know activities on your behalf and at the end of the day just accelerating i think what you can find ways make happen on your computer right very cool i don't i know some of the stuff that has been teased it's been you know obviously p you can start to run ai locally on the device yes and so i imagine you know people who are just using it for things like email and stuff like that yeah i mean even email should get simpler for you right and so yeah kinda sum that you can include that goes through the cloud now that we can do it locally that's correct yeah and you see this with features that we have on c copilot plus pcs right now but we have this idea of click to do which gives you a one click moment where we have understanding a screen and context and when you click right we open up a variety of tools kinda like your email example just the ability to write summarize understand content i think we'll become a lot more pervasive certainly with emails you might be offline you might have encrypted content that you only want to see summarized locally the fact that those skills can become proactive on your behalf our our are things i think customers and consumers will see on our broad basis going forward definitely can i ask you the difference between you know we have cpus gpus n maybe yeah for for the lay that don't know like the difference between them yeah me i don't really totally know the difference yeah can you help me understand the difference between all three of them yeah i you know i think most of the world you know has built applications and devices and experiences that utilize the cpu over the last couple of decades gpus have become really important especially when it comes for gaming you know using high resolution displays for cad you know type workloads where visualization is important and i think the the value of the n p essentially for client devices for laptops and you know battery power devices is to be able to give you the ability to accelerate the ability to run these models right and sort of lower the footprint and tax of those models running on your device at the end of the day we expect these n will make it just easier and lower cost for you to have models running on your behalf on a pervasive basis inside the device right right and so the n it doesn't necessarily mean that you don't need a gpu anymore right so you're gonna still have an n and a gpu correct which this is something we're talking about a little bit last night yeah might be able to offload the the sort of video processing to the gpu and still be able to do things with using the n being i think n will be a compliment to gpus and cpus and i think the reason why n mps are useful is because they're very efficient matt when it comes to energy efficiency and battery life and so you can run you know pretty powerful models pretty capable models but you don't need the gigantic footprint of you know thermals and battery life and heats sinks and all the stuff you'd expect for running a large model these n p really just get efficient in terms of running that model for you beauty with that is concur so you could have your apps see all the apps that you know and i love today doing all the things that they do and add new ai capabilities do those things and have those z you gonna be offload or onto to the end n p right not bog down the gpu to do them correct and you know another thing is so i got a chance to sort of check out the applied science lab to have you yeah and one one of the things talked about during the tour was that having this n mp really sort of democrat ai and i think that's a a big concern right is people feel like well maybe only ai is gonna be for people that have a lot of money yeah and you know the haves it halves not with ai and it sounds like these n are a little bit less expensive to produce than gpus so maybe you can talk into the sort of like economics of that little bit n are more purpose built for running ai models and workloads and by virtue of being more purpose built they are inherently more efficient by way of the size and cost associated with building those n p right so the benefit for us there is we think we can deliver the n mp and the perform nature of the n p more broadly across devices across a variety of devices and endpoints in fact we ourselves so hard to do that with c plus pcs last year we're gonna introduce those c copilot plus pcs we initially targeted set of customers that were more premium devices and you know pros and this year now we're able to offer those same class of and imp capabilities to a much broader footprint or devices matter you know more mainstream price points and is very much happening because n p scale better with price because they have the ability to be focused on running ai compute and then be efficient and performance in that space and so our idea very much especially with windows is to be able to bring the breadth in these features and capabilities to the broad based of our windows consumers you know globally and and having enterprise performance be great have performance per watt be great is important for us and pews are our vehicle for making that come to life yeah i i noticed too one of the things they showed us was that they pointed like a a a temperature gun like a like yeah a fl kind of flurry had the at the two computers and one was running the n it like seventy degrees and then the other one it was pointed it was like a hundred and thirteen degrees that's pretty crazy yeah and i think it it speaks to the fact that they're just more efficient right and because they're more efficient they consume less energy they generate less heat they give you a longer battery life they give all of those attributes a lower price and so we look at them as a vehicle for them you know getting runway way and scale with these devices right right i wanna talk about recall real quick when i first saw the announcement of recall was it billed last year that they was the first time yeah thought that was like the coolest thing basically like having this the whole history of what was i looking at yesterday and you can go back and find it but i know that there was some sort of privacy concerns and things that popped up around it they sort of freaked people out a little bit yeah so i'm curious how is recall evolved since then yeah it a great question we think of recall as one of several places where we think about the capabilities in the operating system evolving that capability and features set you know surfaces and manifest itself in a variety of different ways recall is one of them like we talked earlier search is another great one for example click to do another experience camera stacks audio stacks paint having you know new capabilities photos being able to re themselves so ai is gonna show up in the device and in the operating system a variety of different ways right recall was a great learning experience for us in terms of understanding our customer needs and expectations but we have privacy and them feeling like they were in control and it was a good experience for us to make sure the development process of windows allowed us to make sure we were taking advantage of those points of feedback right which is exactly what we did we had a subtle set of you know private release previews with customers we got great feedback through it and we've now successfully ga the product and the early signals we're seeing so far is there's a set of customers who opt into the device experience and it really helps them kinda get into the flow of finding and searching and reliving points in times and really augmenting their memory in in a digital context and we're looking forward to continue to evolution that feature right right so it's it's it's not turned on by default on computers right so like if you get a a new ai pc it's not right you have to actually opt in right yes as opposed to opt out and then also you guys aren't sending anything to the cloud right it's all like staying right on the piece yeah you nailed the at is a couple of important points first it is an opt in experience mh and after you opt in there are a variety of features in the use of the product that are user defined and control that's so you have the ability to define what you would like your recall experience to be and then very importantly the models and the data stay local on the device right they're all they're using the new n process using the n p the model's is running on the n p very right so i wanna i wanna look into the future a little bit too so five years from now yeah what do you think we'll be able to do with pcs that we can't do today you know we we think about this quite a bit of to mistake man and i feel like we make plans and what's surprising that the plans is a rate at which they are changing right great in some ways it is happening faster than we anticipated what i think at the end of the day it's think a core element of the windows proposition is to make sure we're in the business of empowering our customers and consumers and developers and and commercial you know information workers to be able to do more with their computers with their pcs and its windows i think that will be more so true five years from now than today by way of actual features and experiences you know i think we see a world where windows bake this evolution to the you know being an agent os os very much like we talked about it build with the agent evolution of the web itself right and i think that evolution of the os itself will be a platform construct we ourselves will build a bunch of new experiences where you have models and agents and capabilities running inside windows in itself and i think it'll also be a world where developers will be intended to build a bunch of new applications and experiences apps absolutely that do you know and i love today we'll extend themselves with new capabilities either net new apps are going to show up in the ecosystem that use things like model context protocol for example to go to talk across applications and talk to the os in ways quite frankly we are probably not imagined yet yeah yeah that's kind of exciting in itself it's funny because i i constantly try to make predictions of where i think things are going and i'm yeah that's probably three years out and then it happens three months later right it's kinda amazing yeah one real example of that for us is the performance and capability these models we're running on the n p right a year ago we were kind of wondering if we would have you know a billion per parameter model run on the edge and what we were talking about earlier was we just last week had a fourteen billion per parameter model that has a reasoning capability running fully off to n p and so what that means for a developer what that means for the windows experience i think super exciting for one or is happening at a faster rate than we could probably could imagined yeah yeah is there any sort of misconceptions that you hear around like the ai c's that you wanna sort of laid rest you know i think the biggest thing is customers just knowing that ai c's are a full stack experience from the hardware the device itself they deliver great fundamentals in terms of battery life and security and performance and then all of that ladders up to serving a capability or a platform that in term has great in internal has great ai experience so i think is probably most important things for people to know and so when you're in your journey having your next pc you should expect this device to be just a great device in you know daily use i mean also a a durable construct in terms of future experiences that are gonna get unlocked taking advantage of the platform right so when it comes to ai right now it feels like we're in this world where like everything is just like super fast and it it feels like you know companies are sort of motivated to ship things really fast how does microsoft see balancing trying to keep shipping new features and keeping people sort of impressed with you know the privacy security get of concerns people have i think you nailed it i think balance is key for us and so in windows for us why i think of it in a couple of different vectors for sure as a team that builds products we have a variety of mechanisms today for making sure we have active listening systems across our ecosystem and so we build a lot of these features using released previews and windows where we get feedback from insiders we get feedback from the developer community we get feedback from the industry a bit large quite frankly and so that's one important aspect of our product development system in windows in itself that allows us to make sure we're getting rich robust feedback at the scale of windows that's what important piece matt the second thing kinda like with the work that is happening in windows it is happening quickly for sure we are in a world with rage at which the industry's is evolving in that example the fact that the windows team is a part of building these new technologies building these new standards building protocols allows us to go at day one billy these capabilities into the base technologies in a way that will serve windows customers in the long arc of time in itself i think and the third one i think is some of this is an ecosystem exercise where we will deliver some of these experiences for sure and a lot of this is others who are going to build on top of windows and i was getting signals from them on what they are seeing from their customers and making sure we're setting them up for success so opportunity in multiple vectors and we have a variety of tools in the toolkit to make sure we're delivering meaningful value at the end of the day okay cool well this is my last question it's sort of a a two part question what's something that excites you about what ai i can do today what's something that excites you about what we'll be able to do with ai in the near future to be a question the things that i get excited about with ai today personally which i found quite remarkable is the ability for us to do things like deep research an analyst work on the m n three sixty five c copilot mh it's a capability that is an asynchronous task it takes a while to kinda run through it requires a reasonable amount of domain knowledge it requires understanding of your cobra environment and understanding of your team or your in your department and i'm very excited with the quality of work that comes out of these high performing agents that are running in the microsoft pilot environment the md sixty five pilot environments that was the thing that i think a year ago your point earlier i don't think i would imagine it's simply just possible right and now we're getting to a place where they're becoming a part of our collective teams workflow when we do analysis when you do reports when you slice feedback maybe we make you know preparations for what future maps are going to look like so that's the thing that i'm kind of amazed with question and your second question you know what's coming down the pipe what's gonna be become exciting i think the singular thing i'm excited about is what i consider to be sort of this ten x thing where we unlock of what is possible on the edge i think you'll be living the world with the devices are going to get more performant we and windows are spending a lot of time making sure the software tool chains and the run times and environments to these models are getting more performant i'm excited that the models themselves are getting better like adding reasoning on the edge as an example and i'm also super grateful that we have a set of class of developers who are building on top of these and so i'm just excited that you know for years we we would invest in how much more experience and value you can be getting and kevin talked about you know as primarily relying on moore's law that's all we can and now i think you have these compounding effects of innovations happening across the entire you know device edge client computing stack that will just unlock i think new things that are possible for customers amazing well thank you so much for spending the time pleasure appreciate it thank you thank you for having us and love you to be to build with you yeah awesome thanks thank you the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast alright i mentioned in the intro that i had the opportunity to ask satya na mandela just one question and what i wanted to know from him is what does ai look like that could truly change the world so here's the exact question i asked if you can design an ai system that would fundamentally change society beyond just answering questions and generating art what would it look like and what risk and responsibilities come with it that was the exact question and here with satya response i would say the thing that i'm most inspired by was one of the demos i showed even today is in health care right because i feel like what touches all of us is this challenge of can be improved care and reduce cost so if there was one place where i would say this agent to ai has to make a real difference would be take one of the challenges that we have as a society right and go add it and i think we're at the verge of it like what stanford university was able to do by just essentially for something so high stakes right like the tumor board meeting and orchestrate all these agents and then ultimately empower the caregiver there right the doctors the nurses all the specialists to be able to have a more successful tumor board meeting and then improve care that to me where i think these systems are built and then made available can make a huge difference awesome amazing really appreciate the time thank you we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you can do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents that handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat fueled by your crm data with no complex setup the hubspot deep research connector will automatically be available to all hubspot accounts across all tiers that have a chat team enterprise edu u subscription turn on the hubspot deep research connector in chad to get powerful phd level insights from your customer data now let's get back to the show

can you build an eight billion dollar startup up by yourself using ai agents well today we're gonna find out we have on lat g the founder of factory dot ai one of the best kept secrets in silicon valley know you're with about five code this five code that but as soon as you actually start vibe coding anything serious as of right now it tends to break but with factory dot ai you could actually build a real company just using natural language up until now it's only been used by huge companies but today they're releasing it to everyone and announcing it on this podcast so you guys are getting in on the ground floor so let's just jump right in cutting your cell cycle in half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hub hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results are pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and get this qualified leads quadrupled who doesn't want that people spent three times longer on their landing pages it's incredible go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow baton man thanks for coming on the show thank you for having me a pleasure beer yeah i've been thinking for a while i really wanted to get you on here because i've been hearing from friends in silicon valley for the last several months that you know basically factories like devon but actually works at least that's what they've been telling me that i looked into your website you know and i mean i think you guys have been doing this for almost two years now you have incredible investors and you got sham maguire from sequoia one of the top investors in the world who helped funds spacex your background you know absolutely amazing you know you're a physicist who my understanding as you published a paper with like the einstein of our generation and i looked at the website to me you know your approach seems more practical like devin seemed to be kind of pitching hey we're gonna replace all of your engineers you seem to be more about like your empowering engineering teams my question is you know why don't people know about you guys yet yeah great question and first of all i know silas he's great i'm a big fan of his but yeah you know there are a lot of different players in the space you know we've been around for two years our approach has been very much kind of disciplined in the sense that we've been building for enterprises from day one and kind of top of mind we knew that it's a very tempting game you know going into like act and linkedin and kind of playing that game and so i think it's really important to get out there and you know have developers share their thoughts on both your vision and your product i think for us we first wanted to really battle test our ideas in our product in the enterprise where you know we can make bets that might not be you know that appealing for like a viral demo but might be very appealing for an enterprise or a developer you know working on some very nasty cobalt migrations in like a thirty year old code base right and so we've been very heads down for kind of the first basically two years of our existence just working with enterprises deploying factory to these enterprises improving the product from there and so that's why we've been a little less kind of outward but over the next couple weeks we're at a point where it's pretty important for us to change that and you know be a lot more open get a lot more developers in the platform because we're at a point where we've found not only does the factory platform dramatically help enterprise engineers but we'd kind of naturally see them start bringing factor to like their side projects or trying to sneak it into other avenues and yeah it's really at the point where you know we feel the product is mature enough to start appealing to even more audiences than just the enterprise you know so we've been very disciplined and very focused in our targeting for the first two years but now we're very excited to be opening up factory for gi access yeah that makes a lot of sense to me but maybe our listeners are like what's devon yeah it's maybe like at a high level we should explain to too like what is factory like what do you guys do and why should people care yeah so factory we are building droids okay robots robot yeah basically software robots that you know solve all the ugly tasks in the software home life cycle and so a lot of people especially you know if they're not that familiar with engineering might think engineering is just coding the reality is especially at these large enterprises developers don't just spend their time writing code but they actually spend a majority of their time on all the stuff that goes in before the code right and all the stuff that goes in after and so that's like understanding and planning and p and design docs and then you get to the coding part and then after the code there's the review the testing the maintenance yeah you had to go through like coding hail to get to the fun part of coding exactly and so we're kind of focused on the whole like end to end mh and the reality is i think it's important to have that kind of holistic focus and in a similar sense to you know sometimes for self driving there are different approaches about like which parts you need data from anything think our approach is very much end to end so my understanding is you guys are doing general release now so you've been serving those enterprise customers kinda silently building this for two years making great progress yeah in a lot of head heads i've heard you guys even have been beating devin often which is awesome and so now that it's actually out there maybe we just like show people what it can do we could talk forever but if they actually just see it i think that's gonna speak with thousand words right yeah let's jump into it so what are we gonna do today so obviously you know the use cases that we do in the enterprise are you know obviously very valuable but a little less visually pleasing right and so you know some common things that we do is like nasty migrations of like java seven to java twenty one database migrations spring boot migrations fun like sql or like cobalt like all this stuff is very high value to the enterprise but i think less maybe appealing to the broad audience yeah get like fifty views on youtube or something yeah exactly so i thinking you know for your audience it might be fun people will meme a lot about the number of engineers that work at doc saw oh yeah it's like seven thousand something crazy male you know every yourself and i'll see it to so like after you know one company will announce like a lot of layoffs they'll be like doc announces hiring a hundred thousand more engineers or something yeah yeah so i thought it could be fun to build a little toy version of doc within factory just to get a sense of how factory helps you know agent automate some development tasks cool so we're gonna like build like a billion dollar company yeah let's see what we can do like a fifty fifty partner in this like hostess this yeah hey if you help guide the droids then then then you guys state okay cool alright so here you can see we've landed on the factory dashboard we have a chat interface so you know pretty standard nothing too new here with l we also have these four droids and so these are different these are our agents we call them droids because agents is kind of synonymous poor quality right it's for you know different tasks that you might wanna do so you know knowledge droid is maybe you're trying to create a design doc for some large engineering task that your org will be doing again that's a little bit more enterprise angle c droid this is really the kind of the one that everyone really wants to see which is you know whether it's zero to one or end to end plus one having the ability to go into a code base and kind of build end to end features there's the reliability drug which can integrate with tools like century or data dog and if you have any outages it can go in and you creating rca and even solve those issues but the tutorial which just guides you how to use factory but cool i like the approach with the droids because it seems like you have these like specialized droids that do a specific thing versus a lot of these you know ai agent companies friends with you y hey na who did maybe ag and actually like kinda shred that on twitter when the first came out and it was a great concept but a lot of these like that and and devin they kinda promised they're gonna do everything and then they kinda fail it almost everything i like to the fact that you guys have like specialized ones that do specific things have specific deliverables yeah totally yeah and i think you know the name of the game with agents is you want them to be as reliable as possible right and so if you could have them focused on certain core competencies in their workflows it makes that reliability a lot easier and so i just hit enter on hey let's build out a toy version of doc sign from scratch yeah and so the code droid is now going in creating this plan so you know here we have this general implementation plan project set up user authentication document management potential challenges now if i was gonna be doing this a little more thoroughly and you know for production grade right now i might you know be a little more thoughtful in my responses but alright i defer to you let's just get a quick version up and running locally and then we can iterate from there so you know it's asking some very thorough questions like what tech stack which core features you like this system to include authentication these are good questions i'm just saying you know what you pick i don't have time for this right now yeah obviously in the enterprise setting you're gonna be much more picky about this when you're not going you know purely from scratch but alright you know we can see it's thinking process here as it's going in and starting and so now it's gonna go and see here we have it running a command locally so point here is that there are a lot of agents that run purely locally that's like a tool like cloud code or any of the ide agents they only run in your local environment and then there are some of the other agents like codex or dev which only run remotely what's incredible about factories is we have the ability to do both and you can para in both so as you're del tasks you can say some you know what i'm confident in our test i'm confident our acceptance criteria just gonna go delegate that and send it to the cloud then there are some it's like i actually wanna be pretty involved so i want this to work on it agent but locally yeah hey before you going on i love to like like i believe i could treat said like terms being local and there's a cloud like and i think you said greg rock with talking about this too right they're like that's part of the vision in the future for open ai codecs is like that's gonna eventually do that and then you were telling me like basically factory already does what is it eventually doing yeah that's right what's the benefit of that kind of hybrid approach i mean it allows these systems to have a silhouette that's much more similar to what we as humans have a civil so like for example when i'm working that looks like an agent working locally on my device right whereas when a colleague of mine is working it's essentially equivalent to like some cloud environment you know writing code and then how do i see the code that they're right well they'll submit p and then i'll go and maybe look at their branch right and so this way it allows you to kind of spin up either more copies of yourself or more copies of your colleagues makes sense and so it's kind of like you know a manager might think hey here are these tasks that i'm gonna do here are these tasks that i'm gonna kinda delegate to a colleague so you as kind of a pilot of this ship you can get to say hey which of these tasks will i monitor which i gonna go send off and you know i'll see the p later yeah so locals like giving you super superpower or mode like giving your team superpower that's right and with factor you kinda get the best of both worlds it's awesome exactly right and so what happened here is you know it was asking permission for certain commands mh i just turned on auto save and auto run so now it's kind of just like full autonomous mode which just like go run the commands so you can see it's creating some repo creating some folders and now it's just up and running you know and it's gonna create a few files because you can't make doc sign just in one file so we can kinda have this running in the background here and we can check in it should create all these files and then spin it up and so we'll we'll check it out so this is basically like your y mode or something like it's just like basically yes except what's nice is when you serve enterprise yolo mode is not something that anyone ever wants right that right right we take this very seriously and so yeah not only do you have this ability to just have like look there are different levels of risk for the auto accepting of cl commands mh but also as an admin you'll have the ability to white list or blacklist list certain commands mh so you might not wanna allow any pseudo commands interesting because it could do some pretty serious damage you might wanna really restrict which folders you're even allowing the agent to get to how do you make that list of commands that it can't be accepted it's in an admin setting k cool yeah it's just gonna be running it might take a few minutes we can see it's you know setting up its environment file but i think you know to your earlier question about some of the things that i think open i mentioned in the codecs launches it's pretty clear that software development is going to change dramatically over the next five years and i think an inc that currently exists is that everyone says it's gonna change dramatically yet the current paradigm pretty much what it looks like is putting ai onto existing workflows right right look the existing workflow that developers have had for the last fifteen years is working in the ig and writing every single line of code there so we've applied ai into the existing workflows which is these ai but the reality is every big platform shift has involved very significant behavior change you know in the internet transition what happened people went from getting most of their information from books to like doing this and that's where they get their information right and mobile what happened people want from like walking around with their heads up to like walking around like that yeah very visceral behavior changes yet ai which is supposed to be the platform shift that puts all these others to shame what are the most used products well it's like chat complexity c copilot cursor well chat between complexity that's just google with better results right right it's the same behavior chat with google basically exactly and then similarly with like c copilot and cursor it's essentially the same behavior which is like the ide behavior now you've made pressing some slightly different keys more often but it's not like a visceral changed behavior right and that's because we haven't hit that full transformation yet and what we're really focused on with our droids and with the ability to have them local and remote is this is the new behavior that's gonna emerge where you're not writing every line of code the center of gravity of software development will change from coding to instead understanding and planning and then testing to make sure that these agents when they're go and submit their p they did satisfy the constraints that you hadn't in mind yeah that makes a lot of sense me i like the guy private you know him on youtube yeah of course yeah yeah he's awesome and he's slightly warming up to ai now but at first he was really hating on ai and it's just because he just you know he's passionate about the art of just coding itself i'm lightly technical about more of a business person you know investor and i think about it is like you know when engineering the you know the point is to create things right to solve problems right and that's what engineering really is about yep but even if we love it you know that doesn't mean that's the best way to do things in the future right that's why when i when i saw factory website i was like this feels more like the future a hundred percent and also to your point it's about building things yeah so what does it mean to build something well you have an idea yeah and that idea is defined by some constraints let's say your idea was spotify it's like okay well you have this social music sharing app obviously there's a business side of like having all the agreements with the you know record labels but from the product itself it's like you know some low latency high fidelity music sharing that has social features playlists all that stuff well those are certain constraints that you have in your head right and what you need to do to actually build that is you need to turn those constraints into machine readable language which is that's the why we have these you know programming languages but what's getting unlocked now is that translation from you to the computer it used to be you know you needed that however many years of an education and years of experience actually learn how to do that translation you could hire people and like hope that they actually did the work and actually did what they said they were doing raise money yeah yeah also it's like that's difficult not a lot of people have access to be able to hire that many people were to raise the capital to do that right whereas now if you are able to translate those constraints that you have in your head you can kind of speak to a tool like factory and it will translate those constraints into the software itself and so it lowers so many of those barriers and it kind of again refocus is like what has made the best engineers and the best product thinkers something that there know every little detail about every little language right but they're the best at thinking about those constraints and understanding what does my customer want how do i translate that into these constraints yeah totally they get more about the customer and spending more time on that and the experience and what problems you're solving versus dealing with bugs yeah you i was in silicon valley for thirteen years i coded on and off i never like was super hardcore oriented insta coding but a lot of my friends were and i was just you know i just felt like god it's you know i just wanna like solve problems for people and create cool stuff right and and and tell people about it and like every time i start coding it would just like bugs would just like drive me crazy like why am i like staying my life dealing with these stupid bugs yeah and then what other people you know talk about like that is it's like the great thing to be working on bugs like jesus it's not you got one life why would you spend all your life solving bugs so you wanna build things yeah you're right right it's like no known one enjoys doing it and that's the equivalent of that and like the enterprise is like there's so many men tedious tasks that enterprise engineers have to do right it's not why they got into engineering in the first place right and even something that you mentioned that i think is a really interesting point to me is you wanna build something cool or make something cool but the thing is you can't just go to an and say hey make me something cool because when you say cool in your head there are certain things that that means right that the don't know and so this new era of software developers who are the like best gonna be the best people would be the ones that when they think cool they know like how do you elicit that from the model right because if i just said make me something cool probably i'm not gonna be happy with it price because in my head when i thought cool i really meant something else right right yeah yep and this is perfect for people like me because i i'm like when i talk i'm a lot less art articulate than i write i love to like sit around for an hour to and think something through and write it out and maybe very precise yeah i mean i used to be a physicist i spend a lot of my time with mathematicians and there's so many people who felt more comfortable explaining ideas with math and with words because sometimes like words are very difficult and similarly like engineers like sometimes it's very difficult to describe what you mean in words as opposed to like you know programming language but understanding how to speak that to the models without writing out all the code yourself i think that's gonna be a a very powerful skill it's kinda awesome that we're having this conversation right now while like a billion dollar companies being built in the background right yeah exactly yeah hopefully it works i i'm always nervous or like founders when they do a live demo mobile with ai because you know never know what's gonna happen it looks like it's doing roughly the right thing it's makes some layouts some loading spinner login register dashboard uploading document creating signature that's good you know gotta have signatures and doc so yep seems like he's on the right track hey we'll be right back to the show but first i'm gonna to about another podcast i know you're gonna love it's called marketing against the grain it's hosted by kip wagner in kieran flanagan has brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals if you wanna know what's happening now in marketing especially how to use ai and marketing this is the podcast for you kip and kieran share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details the truth and let nobody else will tell it to you they recently had a great episode called using chat t o three to plan our twenty twenty five marketing campaign and was full of like actionable insights as well as just things i had not thought of about how to apply ai to marketing i highly suggest you check it out listen to marketing against a grain wherever you get your podcast i mean it seems like the fact that you are like tapping into like the existing systems inside of companies where they already you know use ticketing systems everything else like it seems like more natural fit for enterprises and i think it makes a lot of sense you know we talked about this in the podcast lot like i have greg ge on and we talked about like what's the future of business in and things like that and it feels like a lot of companies they're starting to wake up to this but in the ai aid just to me more and more important to keep reinventing yourself yep right a company and if you don't a lot of companies are gonna have of your business i mean think we're gonna see lots of like multi trillion dollar companies if people aren't be shocked they thought trillion was a big deal it's gonna seem like a small number in the future and we're gonna see a lot of companies that you thought we're gonna be around that are no longer gonna be around yeah and because they didn't reinvent themselves and yeah you know i was a big company i would be looking at something like this and thinking like this is something i can actually get my teams to use it fits into our existing systems feeling and it allows us to make our teams happier to actually do work they wanna do and to try new things because they need be trying new things right now yeah you know it is a little bit scary to think about like oh are a lot of companies that you know if they don't reinvent themselves there are certain things that become obsolete on a micro scale it's a little a alarming or a little concerning but i think on a macro scale it's happening because things are becoming more efficient right which i think is actually a great story right like i mean something that we talk about a lot even when we build factory is the henry ford quote which is if you ask people what they want they would say faster horses and sometimes you need to kind of look past what people are asking for and build that automobile right and something that knows a big changes like in a world with horses the structure of the economy is very different than a world with cars right but net net the world is much more efficient mh and so short term there are things that change but long term you know people who wanna visit their families they're able to do so faster right if you have a medical emergency you can get to a hospital faster so it's like sometimes when you have these step function changes and efficiency like the way the world has been built will change a little right but net it's kind of a narrative of like things becoming more and more efficient and i think that's always a good and the creative people the smart people the great engineers the great product thinkers who get to work on higher leverage more efficient problems i think is isn't that good for the world yeah and i agree with the smarter people thinking from this a lot but i also think people who were just like average will also do quite well because as long as you're very persistent and and willing to grind and hustle like i think this is gonna be amazing for those people because like maybe before they you we're at the best code and and they'd they'd go talk to some engineer and be like hey here's my idea the person would be in the back of their head and go okay cool idiot you know and like actually judging them based still what they judge their iq to be or whatever yeah but now it's tools like this they can just go talk to the ai and build the thing and spread it out there into the world would it impossible before so that's that's a super exciting commitment totally and i think that's also it kind of hits on something that i found very compelling which is a lot of people are saying oh you know all these models are kind of comm iq or intelligence yeah so that now like it doesn't matter if you're not that smart because whatever the model at your fingertips you can have whatever intelligence you need and so then a question is okay well a prior theory is that your success or your ability to do well is kind of defined by you know iq and how hard you can work and that sort of thing and in this world where like this work is be api or this intelligence is via api what is this new metric that will determine like success or not success something that i think is kind of interesting is the idea of agency being the determining factor yeah so even if you're not the high you if you have the will to go and build things as opposed to kind of being passive and lazy that's gonna be the determining factor and if you have that agency you can go and use all these models that have that intelligence on demand for you that might be experts in all these niche fields that you don't have time to become an expert in i find that kind of interesting yeah i think that's right i still think iq is gonna be advantage honestly i think is gonna amplify people who are high iq maybe they'll yeah get ahead even further i mean a question is how close lee is agency tied to iq which i think is interesting question but right yeah yeah the whole another conversation yeah cool so it's still working here it's creating a lot of files yeah yeah know one thing i was thinking about is one of our first guess was air sort of us of perplexed nice and we first came on i was worried that you know open eye was just gonna eat them like very quickly have to destroy them and hasn't it happened they've done incredibly well and i i feel like one of the benefits they'd had is the fact that you know every month there's a different model that becomes the best model and they're able to tap into that and take advantage of that versus okay it's just chest t it's just you know claude or whatever that's sooner another thing you're like google got jewels now opening out has codecs it feels like the fact that you guys can tap into whatever model is the best currently is a huge advantage totally alright so we look like we are up and running here so just gonna ask to set this guy up we're still connected to my local machine so look good and we should be able to check out our little doc sign let's see how it looks cool fingers crossed alright so let's check it locally and we are good oh my god there's our little doc sign toy you got a landing page if we doesn't do anything i mean that's yeah yeah we got a landing page the colors you know could do some word very blue not sure i feel about this logo but you know what we ask for doc let's see so sure doc san be fine with that name doc toy why not doc toy yeah alright so let's try a little login so again we see we're missing some of these logos but we'll get our designer in here to make it look cooler but yeah i think the demo account is user at example dot com passwords password and looks like we're in seems pretty sweet jesus yeah so you know we can make some templates so we can take a tour upload a template okay let's throw in a pdf let's throw in factory one pager yeah and i'll send it to myself upload the dock k it looks like a doc let's add a signature there we go out an initial field there we go let's send it for signature and we can see i now have one awaiting signature over here so yeah i don't know about this layout in this necessarily but you know we can adjust it okay send me the docs down half of this okay alright so here we see so we i have one to sign so let's go and sign it click to sign can add my signature click to initialize the initials seems pretty legit complete signing there we go and now we have one completed not too bad that is amazing and we have a little activity log here as well it's pretty sweet let's go back to the dashboard okay that is incredible okay so factory is amazing at coding and creating a saas app it overuse blue hey you know we can make it red and that's the thing is you know we can go back into factory and adjust from there i think honestly the first thing that just make this look a lot nicer is all these like placeholder icons right like having those that would make this look pretty sweet yeah here we even have templates already yeah i think a big thing would be maybe adjusting some of the ordering here like i think this is a little too much scroll when there's nothing populated in there but honestly the only thing missing for this is like hooking it up to a database like to a proper back end right and then all of the compliance stuff that i'm sure doc actually has to deal with but you probably could talk to factory and get a lot of that done maybe not all of it behind doc level but like close enough right for a one shot in fifteen minutes this is a very very solid start yeah yeah so like if you're an entrepreneur watching this i mean in theory you know doc is like i think they're like a eight point six billion dollar company right yeah so in theory you could create something at that level as a even though a one person team which is just mind blowing pretty exciting to see and i think it's really also cool because it just means that barrier to creating that next eight billion dollar company is that much lower rate because now instead of the let's say five hundred engineers he might have needed to make that you know you know kidding but you know it just allows you to build these things out much faster and even within the enterprise in large org there a lot of times where there'll be teams of like twenty building out internal tools and they'll take them just a huge amount of time when really the internal tool as a means to an end right it allows you to get to that end faster very cool you've been serving the enterprises for the last year or two and now it's generally available is that what's happening right now that's right yeah we're fully ga yeah we have a team's plan now that's just to start forty dollars a month and you can invite other teammates for an additional at least for now ten dollars or every additional user that's all that's crazy that's all that is all okay i mean i think the thing that we're seeing is just a lot of small teams are really liking this and you know our focus still remains on the enterprise but there's something that delivers value to you know a demographic that's slightly different than what we initially targeted right initially there was a reason for the sake of focus to not kind of open that up but now we have the scalability we just wanna put this in more people's hands it's still early i'm sure they're gonna be things that you know people have a lot of feedback there might be things that they wanna adjust and we're very eager to hear but yeah i'm excited to put in more people's hands that's awesome see where it's at today i think it has so much potential i mean where you think factory is gonna go in the future like let's say this is a super successful you know ga launch and everyone loves it and when people talk talking about devin they now say factory and you'd come part like the one of the category leaders like where does factory go in the next like three to five years yeah i mean i think the big thing in the near horizon is being this kind of unified platform for software development right now a developer kind of lives a very fragmented to the life between github between their ide between slack right between google drive between notion linear all these different tools and in a similar way to how a startup up like rip kind of unified hr and it into one place mh that's what we want to do with software to home because there's just so much time spent crawling between all these different platforms and kinda pulling in all that information and then slows down that journey from idea to feature or idea to product and right factory and our droids are gonna have access to all these tools and they'll meet you whatever you need so just like anything that's like kind of most convenient is you you need to do the least in the way of getting there mh and i think for we wanna meet developers where they are in these existing tools but then also provide them this nice new comfy home within factory where they can even start their projects as well so whether it's you know you have a very long slack thread that's an important conversation about product feature that you wanna build out you can then tag factory it's gonna go and start you know creating a first pass either like design doc or even a p based on that or if you have backlog tickets in your linear or jira tag android in will go and submit a p to solve it that's amazing so like like even executives be talking in slack and like yeah you know they have an idea versus like going and bothering the engineering team they can just like yeah have a first pass at it and see it's actually close to what they were imagining and then maybe they maybe be handing off an engineering team to take it to the next level a hundred percent i mean some we've seen like that kind of naturally emerged that we weren't expecting is pms at some of these enterprises we deployed to who have got their hands on factor we didn't initially plan on deploying to them and it kind of raised the bar for what is like a demo or a proof of concept internally or also you know there's so many times where pms would need to ping front end engineers or full stack engineers to change copy or to add a page you're requesting that which like just slows down the engineering org so much they hate it like going there just change some stuff that you could just do if you knew what the hell you were doing exactly exactly and so now they don't need to do that at all and they're bragging like hey look i just ship some production ready p and if you're an engineering leader and you're worried like oh no my pms are gonna start submitting a lot p what's great about factories we also adhere to your best practices mh so if you have pretty thorough docs in your org about like here's how we write to tests here's how we ship features here's like our contributing guides the droids will adhere to that and so if someone's trying to ship a p it'll actually go in and make the changes to make it adhere to whatever stands that you have that's awesome and so kind of keeps in check and make sure you're not just like introducing a lot of kind of vibe coded p r's in there right but you know adhere to the enterprise standards yeah yeah somewhat contributed to the vibe code trend with the rally brown that i think it's cool i mean i think for like simple little apps it's cool but i think for anything complex it starts to break down and i think i think it's brilliant how you guys have started with enterprises and now kinda works for regular people can use it as well i think also companies like open ai i don't see them anytime soon like building something for the enterprise where they built everything out the enterprise with need right they're gonna start with more consumers because i mean is a consumer app as of now yeah so i that i love the strategy you keep saying droids so like why yeah mean know you kinda touched on the earlier but like are you not concerned about george lucas or anything like that yeah no so if we actually initially were incorporated as san francisco droid company yeah okay we were advised by our lawyers that lucas film is very lit and we decided to rename to the san francisco ai factory but we really love the name honestly our customers really love the name too there i can't tell you how many times people are like i speak with the droid it's or something like that and so now i think it's more just it's gonna be a sign of success when we get our first cease and desist from lucas film crazy inside stories i don't know george but actually the reason i have laura dot com is i was partnered with bar os the producer ordering rings and the matrix we were trying to make movies do together don't know way and yeah yeah it was crazy for me like i was involved in crypto pretty early on and like i sold my startup up not for like a huge mouth but you know i was kinda in between projects my buddy introduced me to berry and i was like wait you wanna work with me on this and like let's try to do it together we like really hit it off damn you know almost became like a someone like almost like a father's figure to me even though we we're like business partners you know and he started getting me involved in meeting all these amazing people in hollywood and i was out in japan and he messaged me he's like hey do you wanna go to a skywalker ranch and possibly meet george that's crazy i was like sorry yes yes i wanna go and i literally went from japan back to san francisco you know i don't know anything about hollywood grew in i'm i bought this fancy jacket and everything i thought i was gonna be cool going and hang out out out there i fly back from japan to san francisco and then that was when the wildfires happened and the entire thing got canceled don't know the entire thing got i'd canceled and so they and it just never happened again and did covid happened around for that so i never got the meet to those people which what yeah was really like but man that would have been awesome so something i you know i mentioned my son because actually he went back to seriously one thing i think about a lot is think about you know what should i be teaching my son in the ai age should he be learning to code it's hard to know what he's gonna do in the future right yeah you're too young to have a kid right now or probably are if you did have a kid would you be teaching them to code yeah i mean i think one hundred percent okay unequivocally just like i think you know even though i don't need to do multiplication that offer many days i think understanding the things that under rely all of the technology around us always be important right i think similarly like understanding like machine code doesn't really matter or like assembly doesn't really matter but to have that full kind of systems understanding of the different layers of abstraction will always be important right whether you're a software engineer a product builder whether you're a theoretical physicist you're like it's still important to understand kind of the bare bones of what underlies whatever it is that you're working on and i think what we're coming to terms with is there's kind of gonna be a mountain of material that we no longer need to know but it's still like you will be at a huge advantage if you are familiar with that yeah so i i think coding is incredibly important i think mostly for the way it teaches you how to reason and how to think right that's i gonna say in that systems way thinking about strengths again i think that methodical way of thinking and reasoning through problems that's always gonna be valuable i was a physicist before and there's a funny thing where there are a lot of physicists in a lot of the foundation model and is it because there's a lot of black holes involved in l no now as far as we know yeah as far as we not i don't yeah maybe this is maybe delayed poorly but the reality is working on problems that have very difficult reasoning and to require the synthesis of a lot of different information and reasoning about it in a pretty like non trivial quantitative way in kind of a systems way that is just a valuable skill no matter what and whatever domain you end up applying it right and so i think this applies similarly with these tools now i think this next generation should not necessarily be brought up the same way we were because they should also be native in how to use these tools mh just like how in errors before people would spend a lot of time like with an abacus doing calculations it's important to know okay i can do the calculation myself once you're past that it's okay now i use a calculator from now on just remember you still know how to do the math because now you can use it and have much higher leverage to kind of build things mh yeah agree no no i've seen a lot of people or at least on twitter from silicon valley like commenting on this and they seem to have like really i don't i don't know it's they treat it too binary my opinion like i i've seen either like yeah my kids like seven and they're like go through like a coding boot camp or it's like i've never teaching my kid to code because it doesn't matter anymore neither one of these makes sense to me right now like with my son i've been like kinda easing him into things like i showed him the command line he's was like oh that's cool that's how that it works i'm like yeah this is actually what's going on behind the scene no well i taught him like four or five commands i was like if he wants to play with it sometime he can but i'm not gonna like make him do that yeah and then we played with ref and a few other tools and he just like loved the idea like making stuff with the ai he thought that was fascinating so yeah i'm trying to do both i i think most people should probably be doing that but totally gotta get your son on factory yeah i will we be careful he may looking end up taking over your company window yeah maybe like a fun question for before we go up here you know so mattel imagine you have a time machine you know your physicist i'm saying anything stupid here just you know you know don't you you have a time machine you travel to the year twenty fifty let's say you get out in san francisco you know and what do you see what's different in the physical world digital world life whatever yeah i maybe have a hot take here which is i think the arc of technology is actually exactly an arc in that kind of where did humanity come from but like in nature like hunter gather or there was no discernible technology other than maybe some sticks and stones and tools and whatever i think we're kind of about to hit the apex where like now you look out in san francisco and you see like way mo you see so much technology everywhere i think as time goes on we're gonna kind of go back down and reduce the presence of technology as much as possible would you can kind of see the early starts up are you already say everyone's like the store the way modes or worker not just but just like people as we get so much like efficiency and so much value out of like medicine and technology and all this i think you're already seeing like early inclination of people trying there's all these movements about you know cold showers or like mma and all or all like you know people spending a lot of time in nature getting all this sunlight and kind of going against the like pure technology for everything so it takes something me the background it's gonna be makes things amazing and not in our face yeah yeah and now i think this is very much s is a bubble and the rest of the world is gonna look very different and we'll adopt things in a slower pace right i think san francisco is gonna kind of come back around and have a little bit of like how can we have the same enable with minimal presence from these things right this also is skipping over the probably twenty years of like robotics that is gonna be at that apex which i think maybe at some interim between where we are now in twenty fifty we're gonna have by far a larger robot population in san francisco in human i agree i mean i'm here in kyoto i've actually been you know tried to advocate for the us and japan to work together on this stuff because i think japan would be a perfect place to be testing the robots two people were super open to oh a hundred percent yeah i mean growing up i was inspired by gun and all which which came from i was wearing a gun shirt today because the whole droids the no yeah awesome yeah to i agree that and actually i think you know open i just announced the whole thing with johnny iv right where they're gonna be building devices i was like and one of the first episode of the next wave when i said i was like i think one of the big things in the future was like a future prediction is that the iphone is not going to be the last device for humanity it's not gonna be the last way that we interact with technology and the fact that we're all just like staring that at our phones right now like you know looking like morons on i i'm hoping that eventually goes away and we have better ways to interact with technology and i think ai will actually enable that so it kinda fits with your vision for the future yeah this been awesome is there anything you wanna tell people like how can they get started with factory today yeah go to factory dot ai and get started we have fourteen day free trials for everyone so go in and check it out if anything's not up to your liking or if you have any questions or thoughts just shoot me an email on factory dot ai happy to jump in cool is there anything special for next wave listeners yeah so we have a very special deal for next wave listeners awesome i believe it should just be in the link in the show notes awesome that's great should people follow you on social media or maybe like follow factory getting factory on twitter yes it's factory ai on twitter give us a follow we'll be posting all of our updates demos that sort of thing less awesome for anyone listening you know we're trying to level up our game with this podcast and hopefully you know you find episodes useful so please if you would it mean a lot to me if you would subscribe on youtube you know with you're listening on apple or spotify subscribe there and yeah thanks it's been awesome all thank you

hey welcome to the next wave podcast alm mount wolf i'm here with nathan lands and today we're talking about the future of investing we're gonna be talking about how you can leverage ai using tools built on top of crunch base to figure out what to invest in what your sales team should go and focus on all sorts of really cool strategies to leverage data and ai around the world of investing nathan in this episode had one of the most brilliant ideas i've ever heard for a salesperson if you're actually out there trying to sell your product to companies you need to stick around because this idea i think could totally change the game for your business but this is an amazing episode it's with ja mcconnell the ceo of crunch base and i'm not gonna say anymore let's just go ahead and jump in and talk to ja cutting your cell cycle in half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hub hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results are pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and get this qualified leads quadrupled who doesn't want that people spent three times longer on their landing pages it's incredible go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow thank you so much for joining us ja it's great to have you on the show great to be here well let's just dive straight into it and talk a little bit about crunch base i know that crunch base over the last i don't know however long maybe the last year or so has really really gone deep into the ai world and sort of shifted what crunch base is into like an ai first platform so let's talk about that like what is the sort of grand vision with crunch base who is it for what's the plans with it let's just get right into it yeah i mean i could take the whole time just talking about that yeah look like we've been for the last fourteen fifteen for every years this sort of historical record of what's happened with a company and we realized with ai happening and like all this yes it's structured data but huge amounts of structured data were there insights that maybe we're more interesting than what's happened in the past with the company can we use ai to figure out what's gonna happen next with a company how accurate would it be if we go and try to figure out you know what next funding round is gonna happen with what company or what companies in get acquired nurse or who's gonna go public mh so we took all of this data all of this historical data and combine it with data no one else has access to things like our usage data an minimize of course sort of looking at trends of investor flow or corporates flows and said what can we learn from all this and that's where we launched this sort of prediction engine it just wasn't possible a couple of years ago just because given that pet of data that we have sort of behind the scenes here so it's pretty exciting times yeah i'm curious so are the models that you're using are they like external models or is this stuff that crunch base is sort of developing internally yeah it a serve a combination obviously like we don't have the tens of billions of dollars to go in and build our own stuff so we certainly are leveraging the latest and greatest tech as you might imagine open ai as part of that equation tensorflow flows as part of that equation so there's a lot of these this sort of las greatest tech but we're building our own stuff on top of it right so we're going in taking a lot of the proprietary stuff that no one else would build because they're not crunch base and we're leveraging the pieces that we need you to pull the right spaces so in in other words how do you go and generate the content of how we present to the user sure we're gonna use open ai for that but in a day there's still a massive machine learning problem that's hiding in the side that it takes more than just uploading it up to chad gb to serve of answer for us gotcha it's really fascinating i mean like what sort of data points would we even look at to sort of predict the future because that's kind of what crunch base is trying to do right is kind of trying to predict what companies are gonna ipo next which ones are sort of acquisition targets what are we looking at people already kinda use crunch based that way right like in the past that's think it's like a genius evolution of the platform you for context i lived in san francisco for thirteen years did some tech startups ups no bunch of vcs and people always check crunch space and they'd look at who's in the round or when did they rates around or what's recent news right so they're already using it that way society what you guys are doing yeah it's really different so you're absolutely right though the use case before was are they gonna raise money soon so they would go and look at a profile and say well it's been about eighteen months it's they're probably about time for a fundraising and that would be the one data point that they're using to answer the question we were using thousands of feature vectors to go and figure this out so like an easy to understand example would be is a company go fund soon so we'll go and say sure is it about time for them to fund raise then we'll go and look at the entire industry and was okay well like how long does it usually take for a recovery to fundraising this space for this size but then we'll go a little deeper and we'll go and say well has they anyone updated that company profile recently and if the answer is yes that gives us a little signal that maybe there's something going on at the company and then another signal might be has investor flow to this profile changed significantly compared to the past so if there's more investors looking at the profile well why what would drive them to go and look at this profile right and then how are they looking at are they searching fort this organically came upon it or was it a link or did they come from a gmail account you know so you had this sort of like two way sort of conversation happening on our profile than are they entrepreneur looking at those same investors that were looking at them well that's not a little signal right so each one of these steps along the way gets us more and more confident that are funding round is maybe happening behind the scenes and if it is we can sort of signal at least some level of confidence out to our end users and now that's just one again at thousands of these things right what's happening the news just how is traffic to the site in general like there's a lot of signals that we can go and combine together to sort of find the right pattern to say this is a company that's gonna fund soon as an example yeah that makes a lot of sense i mean just thinking about it yeah i if if a company is in there can updating their crunch based profile and adding new information they're probably doing that because they're expecting you know investors or people to be going and looking at that page so yeah that's interesting it can be the only signal but it really is one of more signals right and the nice thing by ai is we don't really need to figure out exactly the right combination that makes it it's just like it can look at every company has ever raised funding and the historically look at all the day we collected to at that moment to say well here's the sixteen different paths of a company that might lead to a funding around and that gives me exciting right because this is so that no one else can do doesn't matter which competitor we're talking about they don't have that eighty million people using in our site to go and drive and inform those prediction decisions for sure since you've actually pivoted to more sort of ai based analytics of like figuring out when there's gonna be an ipo or who's gonna raise or those kinds of things have you sort of figured out the accuracy level of it like how accurate has it been so far yeah and this is maybe the biggest challenge is that when anyone ever tells you hey i've got a prediction engine you're like that's garbage because every prediction engine ever is garbage so this is very different so we do do a lot analysis we can do a lot back testing start to figure out how would we have done so you take sort of two thirds of all of our data and you build the models on that and then the remaining third you use to sort of task see would it have done it correctly had this model existed and by using that framework and looking at the kind of companies that we're trying to make these predictions against there's precision and recall and we have a ninety five percent precision on fund and nine nine percent recall so in other words when we make a prediction about a fund raise it's ninety five percent correct and we make predictions against ninety nine percent of the company is that match the criteria we're looking for so it's ridiculously high how accurate we are that now that's the easy answer the more complicated answer is as you add time scale to it it gets much harder so who's gonna fund rates tomorrow is that right impossible question answer crunch base will do a better job than you guessing but it's still gonna be fundamentally a i guess this is actually what i was gonna say so before we got on here i checked a few companies i know when they're fundraising yeah you were super accurate on they were gonna be fundraising a bit off on the timelines yeah right and so we put that in there so we say look here's what we think we're never gonna be a hundred percent confident oh and the next six months is gonna happen but we might say like eighty percent chance is gonna happen next six months because that timing skill there's so many factors that are impossible for us to know unless we're inside the brain of the founder to know if they're gonna fund raise but that signal getting back to a question you asked earlier helps the use case of i'm an investor i'm not looking at this company but maybe i should be because it looks like current based things are gonna be fundraising soon or i'm a large public company i wanna acquire this company they might be going to fund soon and i wanna get them before they raise that money or increase our valuation there's a lot of different uses for even just that one fundraising prediction among the almost dozen different insights and predictions that we have gotcha that makes sense i mean i think would be great to just jump in and sort of get a little demo a little tour yeah what is capable of and you know this is kind of a youtube first podcast we like be really visual and show what we can so love to jump in and just sort of get a sneak peek and give people a little demo of what it can do yeah so let me see if i can work the internet here so this the new home homepage that's very different than the old home homepage of yesterday and you'll notice that we're right upfront saying sort of the new data that's coming in i think we've got twelve and a half million new predictions in just the last thirty days so this engine is constantly running constantly updating trying to find not just the next funding round but also you know what is the next acquisition was next ipo which companies do we predict to grow so we're really looking at like a lot of different aspects of what a company is we've got this new sort of ai agent that can help you sort of navigate country rates but so you could just type in you know blue skies as an example mh and now we're looking at the blue sky profile and you're gonna see right up front this used to be there now up front we put some of the biggest predictions up at the top so and blue sky case we think it's problem what they're gonna raise our around of funding we think that is likely that they're gonna get acquired at some point which not a lot of people are i'm talking about how we don't think blue sky gonna go public surely there's no signals that they are and then as we scroll down we sort of took this approach to the profile page of you know what is the stock ticker equivalent mh of a profile so there's no way we can put valuation day by day over time which is what a stock ticker does but what is the private company equivalent of that so we've got these things called heat score and growth score and there's a little to show what these things are but like looking at how the company is interplay with the public web how it's interacting with us how does it rank among all of the other companies within our corpus of companies that we track that gives us these axes of data like this heat score and growth score and that again drives other pieces of the application and even some of our predictions so we understand what's happening and what's going to happen next to the company that you can play around with this you know and sort of make it do different whiz bang so if you're a data nerd you can kinda get into this and all the the raw data is available in the api of course and then as i scroll down you're gonna find predictions and insights so here's where i can see we predict they're gonna be growing we don't just say it's gonna be growing we actually explain with our own words why we think that this company is currently growing and if there's a growth prediction why we think it's gonna grow in the future and then here's some of these predictions like we're talking about like here's we think there's a thirty seven percent chance that they're gonna go and fundraising is in the next six to eighteen months there's a good chance they don't fund rates right so we're kinda transparent that these numbers don't necessarily lead up to a hundred percent because there's still some percent chance that they're not gonna raise at all so we're go and put that in there are they gonna get acquire we give reasons as to why and the api we give all of the detailed reasons right so we actually give percentages and we go and say here are the drivers that we believe lead up to this thing so as an api user you can discount things that we think are true that maybe you don't wanna serving incorporate into the prediction or you can just use a prediction score on top of your own prediction algorithms which a i lot of vcs do they sort of use as an input into their own propriety algorithms so this is a sum of the stuff that we're doing that is there's a lot around like we g all the news that is happy on a company and sort of summarize it for you so you don't have to read third news articles to figure it out we sort of bring it all together so there's just a lot of different pieces that help you understand and of course we still have the funding data but that's all sort of just drivers now into these sort of bigger media questions that we're trying to answer yeah there's a lot around this there's a lot around even on that homepage you know sort of seeing what's important what's trending what's happening in all the data that we're tracking and you could decide i wanna look at these particular predictions for these types of industries and sort of get a daily feed of all the stuff that's happening and what we think it's gonna happen next in these companies which is pretty exciting as well so lots of interesting use cases and again you can always go and have a conversation with scout which is our little sort of dog fetching thing that go and serve of do some of the logic stuff that you couldn't do in in crunch before right you before you couldn't figure out sort what's the business model of this company or how does this compare to another company or how do public events impact these particular private companies now you have a way to have that conversation with crunch based programmatic it which is kinda cool have you found any like questions that have been like really really valuable like any sort of like best practice questions where you're like if you asked this you're gonna get some really good stuff out of it yeah i mean there's meaty like policy questions right they like so we see whenever somebody happens in the government you know people come to credit facebook type how our tariffs gonna affect this company right and it will do a pretty good job of sort of speculating and start of figuring out what's gonna happen next i those are some of the interesting ones and then just the the analysis right it can be hard like if we go over to ai search builder so now like you can just natural language in your query and it's gonna go build sort of these very complex searches because you know if you think about multi joint searches and how to build those it's always been sort of cumbersome now you can say show me all the ceos that company is where they used to work at salesforce and then they went to stanford you know like you could type that all in in a huge run on sentence and it will go and show you exactly which companies do it because it builds a joint for you and just allow alone as a huge time saver for our users wonder if this is gonna do like startups it feels like it's gonna like really increase like the velocity of rounds like how fast rounds will close because you know you guys are kinda creating like the ultimate like fo machine right really like people were like oh my god look at the hot company they crunch base just told me it's todd i i gotta get it yeah i'm curious if you guys have seen that or like what your thoughts are yeah i mean it's hard for us to have date on this but and anecdotally we've heard that when we go and signal that is very imminent that a a company is fundraising that they get a live of inbound interest from investors because there's now awareness that has happening you notify people or if we don't but people set up their own alerts right i can just say you know show me biotech companies that are very likely to fund right i can just make that search it's gonna go and you know this a live demo we'll see it so happens well there go so data said industry is biotechnology funny predictions here is very likely so these are all the companies are very likely to fund soon yeah and we can go and create a learn off of this right so you've got investors who are subscribers of ours say when a new company shows up on this list shoot me an email yeah right go and let me know that that's happened and so we don't need to send an emails they'll get their emails themselves because they've set up their alerts the right way that's awesome so could do like ai coding or something like that and can just like as soon as you guys have a new prediction in that category right you guys will email them me here something that's amazing yeah and that's just one of the pictures i like another a very common one is i'm looking for these sorts of companies to acquire let me know when a company of this size no bigger than series c i don't want them who raised one than a hundred million dollars whatever it is when a new one shows up is very likely to get acquired let me know because i i'm in the space of acquiring those company so a lot of corp dental departments get excited about that hey we'll me right back to the show but first gonna to pay about another podcast i know you're gonna love it's called marketing against the grain it's hosted by kip wagner and kirin flanagan and it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals if you wanna know what's happening now in marketing especially how to use ai and marketing this is the podcast for you kip and kieran share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details the truth and like nobody else will tell it to you they recently had a great episode called using chat t o three to plan our twenty twenty five marketing campaign and was full of like actionable insights as well as just things i had not thought of about how to apply ai to marketing i highly suggest you check it out listen to marketing gets a grain wherever you get your podcast now are all the companies that are in here are they all like self added or is all the data sort of pulled by crunch base sure absolutely is the short answer answer we get data from our users mh but but in twenty fourteen it was a hundred percent from our users today it's about five percent so we've sort of transition but the brand belief is that still like if you ask our users how where do we are there from they're mostly will say it's user generate content but really that's only for the smallest companies ones that haven't had a news article yet they no one knows exist they go and put themselves in they sort of announced themselves on crunch base right but the reality is we invest tens of millions of dollars now every year into getting data from a lot of different sources we have five thousand partnerships of data coming in we of course go looking government filings we've got lots of data partnerships to go and give us seed data and then we have our own ai systems that go out and find the data so if we don't hear about a company that isn't it in our data we very actively go and fill out the profile as best as we can assume it fits a certain sort of criteria and that plus the engagement with data plus the generated data right like the the biggest source of data now is crunch rates generating its own data on the data that we have that is that huge huge huge data that we've collected over the years now but not a dev value the user generate data that's still very important stuff right it just seems like it could be such a really good discovery engine for small new start ups right you wanna make sure you're in crunch base because then you're sort of in that algorithm you're in that system where now people might discover you if they're looking for you know small startups ups in x niche right so that's why i was curious can companies just go and sort of input their data in there to make sure that they get discovered when people are making those sort of queries yeah they absolutely can and we do a bad job of this like giving reasons why you should because they ask you get discovered by vcs who wouldn't normally have found you and if you're like i'm a bootstrap company i never want venture fund i don't need to be in crunch space job secret is it's like a good solid ten percent of our users are going and researching your company steve if it's a company they wanna work at if you're not in there and it's not up to today date they're like this isn't something i wanna go and participate because they couldn't rock your website or they couldn't find your website or whatever if the case happens to be there's a good chance that crunch increases profile comes up higher than the website of the smaller company right there's usually a good idea to that data correct in now it used to be traditionally like vc backed companies that mostly on french space it is that still the case are there companies or private companies that are non busy like you just have you suggested that they should do that but also like i can see this working for even like public companies like just like a general tool they help me guide my investments in companies in general yeah that'd be awesome another brand challenge that we have right there's about three hundred thousand companies i've ever received funding we have about four million companies in crunch base so that math is very different because there's a lot of companies that never get to funding there are a lot of bootstrap companies there are a lot of companies that will do acquisitions that we have not seen before that will go and put an crunch base and then every public company is base so we do track all those things now are you gonna get all the information you want to about a public company not like you should go to yahoo finance or google finance where whoever whatever the latest degree is because there's so much public data out there that we just aren't gonna track because doesn't apply to private companies but for the data that does overlap for sure so for instance when like virgin america back in the day that was a hot startup up airline so it was definitely tracking in crunch base alaska airlines was not tracking crunch but when alaska airlines bought virgin then we started tracking alaska airlines so like this ecosystem and sort of the spider web of how companies are interconnected one another expands expands expands and we'll just keep adding in the companies said but we're not gonna put in you know joe's pizza shop on the corner because it it it probably isn't relevant to our community unless it's got some cool tech let's say you're not a vc or an angel investor or something like that do you see value in using crunch base for just general people that are interested in investing what's the value of crunch base to the people that can't write big checks and get into like early startups actually it's a minority part of our users are actually vcs who have funding that wanna go invest so that is an an important use case to us but it's certainly not the biggest right you know you'll see use cases across sales let me go and find the companies that are going to have money soon i'm gonna go and start to sales cycle with them is a good time and it's better than waiting for the fundraiser to happen too right because everyone knows when the fundraiser happens if you can know it six months a year in advance maybe you can serve get entrenched earlier than that so that's a pretty big use case for us i mentioned corp dev right anyone who's buying companies that's important on the self service side we deal job seekers who go and are paying us to say i wanna find hot companies in my area because i wanna be there at their early stage right so you've got that use case pretty heavy a lot of researchers and analysts from the largest consulting firms all the way down to students who are trying to figure out sort of some interesting trends so you've gotta a lot that sort of use case lurking in crunch space those are some of the big ones but it's it always just surprising me to see that pie chart of all the use cases of crunch base and saying first how the heck are we have build a product for different previous cases but more generally it's really excited to see how many different people have different uses for that private company data right i was curious i know there's crunch fund which has no connection no connection but it feels like you guys so all this data you know which companies are gonna raise money somebody should be like piggyback off of like making a lot of money out this like you guys have all the data find out the right companies get into them maybe like small allocations yeah i mean we've toy with the idea doing ourselves honestly like what one of the ideas that we have lurking out there it's on the road map for not this year but maybe some future year is i showed you a profile that has our equivalent of a stock ticker right which is this growth in heat score what if we aggregate those right what if we do that across entire industries so now you've got the ai heat score and growth score over time we're using ourselves we're predicting is this moving up or down in the right direction what if we worked with maybe a secondary provider and create a little index for those companies so you can invest in some subset right and laying the retail investor maybe start playing around with this it's still an idea we've sort of had some early chats about it but sort of stumble into a lot of regulatory issues very quickly right but you know you'll never know it could be distracting for you guys not part of your like core michigan and the roi is way out there right so like yeah we could start to fun it's a ten thing we're a little bit more focused on the present than that far out right but so intriguing yeah i'm kind of curious about like what the sort of future of investing looks like and i don't necessarily know the exact question to ask because i don't know what i don't know what it comes like ai and investing but i'm trying to figure out like if the general population has access to the information and like what's likely to sell next and you know this information is for lack of a better term democrat right i'm curious about what the world looks like as we move closer and closer to that reality but i'm just curious to be have thoughts on that yeah i think there's a lot of potential disruption across a live different i think data is included that and that's honestly why we moved away we did like i would argue funding data is already comm right so like yes we i i we think we have the best yes there's a lot but if we just kept rusty on those laurel like that company goes out business when all of the data gets absorbed into our ll masters you know what else is once it goes in it's not gonna come back out so so facts are a dangerous business to be in so speculation and predictions is at least dynamic and changing i think a lot of data companies are gonna be thinking like that if you deal even in if it's hard to get facts or you lose it all it it someone takes all uploads it is your business in trouble or not that's the question i think everyone should be asking now to the broader question of how does it affect the entire industry you know i think generic tools that do not have proprietary pieces of the story are gonna be very very hard the first mover manages is it gonna be a thing it's always gonna be a challenge so how do you go and build a thing that is uniquely yours i don't know of how to do that unless you are building the foundational models right like you are the open ai and everything they've on top of you or you've got something that truly changes all the time and is only available to you and it's critical to people's business workflows i don't know how else you survived you know i go to a lot of ai conferences and i see a lot people like building ai on top of their product but i really think there's a day rep almost there and curse i again there as well where you can just describe the thing and it's gonna build as good as the thing that you have right as well long as you've got a good product manager with a good set of ideas that tech is not that far away and then you just fast forward five years it's gonna suggest things to do to beat the competition right it's gonna code it for you and build the got raise of money for you too or it's gonna yeah i mean maybe so all of that becomes comm essentially so there is now it's just like companies are gonna go back to building their own internal tools because their customs bespoke for what they need rather than try to fit into someone else's package so in those scenarios you've gotta bring some other value other than that into the equation and that's why being an data company has some something no one else has feels pretty good for that long term vision but i'm biased you also mentioned that your crunch base has an api as well so i mean that api can sort of work into your own sort of dietary stuff i'm sure there'll be people out there that figure out some really good prompts and really good data points to look at to sort of make their own predictions and then not want to share them with the world because that's there's sort of little secret sauce that they figured out really almost every major vc now has our own data science team and we have conversations with them as saying hey how would that api feed into your team we don't wanna replace that team we're just to supplement them that api also has used and lots different applications so a lot of people don't know this so like we power post private company data you're gonna find on any site out there so when you're using you know a major financial tool or a crm tool our data often is in there because we have a partnership with them and that which is code for the same there are customer of ours who have taken our api and putting it in their product and that was a strategic decision because we wanna make sure people don't build competing databases to ours but also it's really exciting to sort of see the innovation and like see how people incorporate our data their own tools to make them successful for sure nathan i'm curious like the sort of investing you know venture capital world is sort of more of the world that you've played less the world that i've played some i'm curious if there's any ground that we haven't covered that you wanna make sure we cover i mean just still like i said the thing that keeps going through my mind is like okay if everyone has access to this data then you have to find the outliers right somebody probably should be making like a really great newsletter on top of this data and like giving their own opinion about what this means and what they're seeing you know beyond just the data yeah that's true truth might take that's true i mean we we are thinking about how to build sort of value reports on top of the data so it's not just like reporting on the raw data but can can we put a narrative to the data right so that's one angle that we're thinking about that our angle we're thinking about is how do we take what's happening in public markets and inter locket it with private market data so for instance if you know a certain set of companies is let's say biotech companies are suddenly the stock market is tanking and they're doing really poorly how does that affect the vc market how does that affect our predictions right like there's these external influences and then can we report on that and say look based on what we're seeing in these sort of external sort of public markets we predict there's a cooling happening on this side of the house and those dollars are gonna get redirected to you know whatever or whatever the other hot trend is at the time like we can start making more of a commentary on what's happening in the world then just leave it to others to interpret there's sort of countless opportunity lurking out there especially when people are willing to pay for sort like these very deep analyses of what's happening in a certain industry or certain micro industry i do think out of the use cases you mentioned like for me the sales one is super interesting like i could talk with ai and like okay i got like a marketing agency and maybe you know you could even get really detail like i went to stanford maybe like look up startups they went stanford so i can like bond over that like if you could get like really deep deepgram like that right and then reach out like we both went the stanford we both went wherever and then start conversation i think that could be like super powerful for a lot of people yeah we're trying to change the definition of what an ic is right look here's exactly why i always sell too successfully and we also went to school together those are still historical facts so the thing we're trying to change in people's minds are is it the right time for you to talk to cool here's this list of companies which just the right one to talk to right now for this particular account executive right so this account executive historically has been great at assigned these sorts of deals here's companies that match the kind of companies that they would successfully sell to but here's ones that we are predicting are gonna grow growing quickly they're private fundraising in the x eighteen months they're not going public and they're not gonna again acquired because that would distract the sales cycle so you can kinda like tee up this is the right time for this ic is what you want talk to you right now and i think that i me and urgency hopefully we'll start changing with the definition a little bit of who we talk to you next as a sales team yeah that's worth it a lot hope so we'll find out now can you use crunch based to sort of discover emerging markets as a whole like obviously you can look at in a a a specific market and find the companies that sort of you know making moves in those industries but can you find like you know you mentioned biotech and you know had you know like the what ai was gonna do over the last you know six or seven years like are there any ways to sort of see that stuff coming a little bit sooner yeah is one of the harder to find features and crunch base honestly so so it's really possible to do there's things called hubs and that made people know what even though i hub is but we basically took every major piece of metadata that has data so for instance like industries so we have every industry that's one access geo is another access there's gender there's founder there's stage of company how much they raise and we basically inter mix so we made these pages so so we're on chris there is a sort of female founder in crypto in europe there's a page for that and we originally did it just for seo reasons mh did is and it collects all the data so it's like here are all the latest funding rounds here are all the people here are the companies and they're all ranked by which ones are trending the most in crunch space so you take that so every single thing in crunch space has a rank so hubs have ranks so which is the hottest one right now today based on what's happening in crunch base there's a first second third fourth all the way down for every single combination of the i don't even know hundred thousand of these different hub pages that we've created then you can go and say well which ones are trending so if you start looking at which ones are trending and which ones had the low rank that are trending upwards quickly that's where you get to see which of those combinations is the hottest and you'll find some really just fascinating things lurking in there some of them if it's gonna be weird you know but like taiwan artificial intelligence companies or like a hot thing right now i'm live in taiwan great okay yeah so there's these little pieces of that you wouldn't normally otherwise know and i think if you were a savvy investor was really try to figure out what is an emerging trend or even just again an analyst or even a journalist to also they also use credit you can find some interesting thing lurking in hub pages i think it's a sleeper feature that we have very cool well this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation i don't wanna be like a salesperson for you but i'm actually subscriber of crunch base i actually do have a a subscription that i get in there and i'd play around with their data from time to time awesome so like i'm actually a user and it sounds like nathan fairly excited as well i i used to be a user long time ago it had no idea what you guys were doing now i'll check the website like oh this is that's awesome it's different definitely different than i used to be very different awesome but no this has been a great conversation and i really appreciate you taking the time to hang out and give us the demo and everything like that obviously crunch base is the place to go crunch base dot com if anybody listening wants to go check it out is there anything else that they should know any other places they can maybe follow along with you anything like that that you wanna shout out before we wrap it up yeah i mean follow crunch based on linkedin i think that's probably our top channel of sort of sharing stuff out and you can follow me on linkedin day as well because i i usually leak roadmap stuff stuff you want know what's it's coming before it does by pride heads but i usually will put stuff about what's coming soon cool awesome jack this has been great thank you so much for hanging out with us today and for anybody list if you had like content like this make sure you like this video and subscribe wherever you listen to podcast podcasts and thank you so much for tuning in hopefully we'll see you in the next one thank you awesome thanks bing

welcome to the next wave i'm your host nathan lands and today we're gonna talk all about the future of shopping with ai now in the last few months we've seen ad shopping and now chat beauty has added shopping directly in chat tea you can buy a product just by talking to your ai today we've got on a j bam the ceo of viral a hot startup in silicon valley it's absolutely amazing because it makes video searchable and brands that are using this are already seeing their sales double so i think you're gonna learn a lot about where shopping is headed with ai as well as ways you can take advantage of this today in your business so let's just jump right into it cutting your cell cycle and half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results are pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and get this qualified leads quadrupled who doesn't want that people spent three times longer on their landing pages it's incredible go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow hey great to have a your today yeah thank you how are you i'm doing good i'm doing good morning here in kyoto but waking up and yeah excited to talk with you today you know the reason i wanted to bring you on is you know i've been thinking a lot lately about like what the future of shopping and e commerce is gonna look like with ai right like a few months back you had complexity rollout they're like kind of ai powered shopping which i thought was an okay experience i was like okay get where it could go and then open ai recently launched their thing which i think they partnered with shopify and they're kinda like baking shopping directly in to the l which is like nuts it's like you can you know what i i imagine in the future just being able to chat with my ai and get exactly what i want and i know you kinda play like a different role with your company viral where you're more on the the ai video side with social shopping yeah i just like to let me to hear like your thoughts on the landscape and where things are at yeah absolutely so first of all thanks for having me on the show yeah and i think you spot on that i think what's happening now is you know if you look at the gen z's social they're shopping now with all things video and i think the proof in the pudding is tiktok right right i mean there's a reason why tiktok became a phenomena and tiktok proof that when you have short form video at scale and it's authentic interesting funny silly perhaps as well it works mh you know i mean just reflecting back on my company right like what's really changed for us is life before tiktok and life after tiktok right so before tiktok you know i'd be knocking doors both with brands and retailers and i've always believed that at the end of the day you know people's shop not because kim kardashian said you should buy a car but people shop because your neighbor who looks like you said hey aj you know i just bought my new e and i love it and the reason i love it is it's doing two hundred miles on one charge mh and so what really matters at the end of the day is authentic opinions right right and where video is very transformative where video makes a huge difference is you can see the product the person and the emotions inside the video right so what that leads to really is high brand trust high product trust right right you can see the product connection so even like simple thing as my headset right just being able to see in a video whether this fits you know lose or tight of a round phase right yeah like just being able to see that where someone telling you in the review that it's in text makes a huge difference you know what you actually reminds me of is there's book i've been it's actually like second or third time reading it like og v on advertising oh yeah of course yeah yeah yeah maybe you're even like kind of preaching that by i don't know but they talk on that book about how they found in all their years of doing advertising that people thought that hiring like a huge celebrity work to promote something but what they found was typically what happened is you pay those people so much money and if people remember the celebrity not the product yeah that's you use a person that people don't know it actually works better like they had like a i think like a eighty year old grandma in france or something they had her doing i think it was a better commercial or shit like this and that was like a huge hit for like thirty years or something it was like a long running had they ran because he would like authenticity it's just like a real person using a product so yeah yeah yeah absolutely i mean i think you hit something very important here you know and we're seeing this trend as well in the market which is brands are moving away from very high paid influencers to more micro influencers and shoppers and authentic creators right i mean today in one of the reasons tiktok has explored is also tiktok brings that average creator who previously had to make a lot of effort on their phone to make a video now with tiktok tools mh anybody in the world can be a creator anybody can be an influencer right yeah so in general we're seeing a trend where even in the market is you know i think between i would say between twenty twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three influencer marketing was all the craze right and now what's happening is you know when you go online and you see another influencer you're like oh not again you know he was paid to say this right right and i think that's where now there's a massive shift and i think this is where again you know tiktok prove that when you have authentic content it works and i think also what changes that now with you know we all have smartphones i would say give and take ninety percent of all phones in the world can record pretty good these days even in poor lighting right so the previous concerns that brands had about you know light being poor or the camera not being right or the quality of the video not being good and and it's not just the quality of the video as in capturing the video but even like with our five g networks now i mean you live in japan japan i had fast high speed phones and you know doc was in fact a leader when it came to what was shopping you know i lived in san francisco for thirteen years and it's crazy me i was like why is the internet not better in silicon valley like what the hell is going on you're like you're you're supposed to be like in the mecca of technology then you go to other places and it's like oh they you have better technology like infrastructure they have at least better infrastructure what's always kinda shocking to me right i mean japan has been ahead in this game to be honest with you since twenty years ago but even know if you could pay in subway in japan with your doc phone right which it's only arrived now i think covid was what changed to virus to change our va in us right yeah but here we are now i think apple pay has been accepted but like i said ton shifts in your hardware in your software in the way you create content and in the way you consume content as well so you know like watching a shot from video today you can watch without disruption right i mean previously i remember like watching a video on the phone you would have to wait for that lag you know the latency on the video to happen right and now i think as so all these factors i've honestly have contributed yeah to we do really taking off with when it comes to commerce so what you're saying makes me think that like the future of like let's say e commerce two point o or whatever this is gonna be immediately yeah you know beyond just amazon ruling everything it feels like there's probably me two things like i assume that eventually we're gonna have ai it understand us as a person very well and they'll probably be able to recommend things to us really well maybe better than name is on in the future but then on the discovery side you know if you're somebody who wants to discover new things you know maybe that starts leaning into the videos right like oh i watched the video and you know maybe my wife saw a video and she saw a purse like who's got that purse there's been a few times actually where we've seen people that had a hears that she liked and literally once or twice i asked them where they got it and she was shocked that i did that she's very introverted to them kind of i just started talking to this woman i'm like my wife loves your purse where did you get that right right right and so i could see in the future that being like a main way that people discover it just through social and especially if you just make simple and just click a button or something and and you buy it then that makes a ton of sense to me yeah what we're seeing is that i think this is what instagram and tiktok have really nailed right i mean the algorithm is able to figure out you know who you are what your interests are and based on your interests and your history or they're able to recommend certain products on your tiktok feed or your yeah instagram feed as well right don't forget that tiktok was like considered like the big ai startup up as of like five years ago right was like oh they get the best algorithm but they get the best ai and then aol came out right yeah right right and and think with this shift that's happening now is this is moving now towards retailers and like amazon right i mean if you go on shop on amazon now amazon is leading all their product pages now with video content so there is the branded video at the top of the page there is a user generated content in the middle of the page and then amazon runs its own retail media network as well they're showing competitor ads video ads on the bottom of the page right okay i mean my guess at his amazon is a amassed two hundred and fifty million video reviews and video on their platform right so that shift is now video now jumping i would say from social to retailers and eventually where we will see video across you know all different retailer and d and other sites and so essentially it's bringing social commerce mh to your retail and your d shopping experience right now there are some challenges with that and know i think one of the big challenges with video in general is no one has time to watch videos right so what i mean by that is when you're in your shopping mindset you do wanna watch the video but you just wanna watch the right video right so you're buying a car now and you're on the bmw website you've selected your car model and their thirty five video on the page right they could be some branded videos bmw showcasing the product their car features there might be some testimonials from customers right so let's say you're looking nathan for a car with leather seats it's that is blue in color and and i'm looking for a car with child seats right with a female driver right so how do you know which video is talking about leather scenes versus child seats so as we move towards video content consumption i think the next big problem is how do i find something in a video that's relevant for me right right perhaps even personalized for me i mean how many times have you been on a fashion website where you're a guy and you're being shown video featuring women right i think video personalization is not there yet but it's where things ahead it right so coming back to the bmw example today most shoppers select a random video so they wanna find that answer about leather seats they select a random video on based on a thumbnail a lot of videos today don't have description and in fact tiktok instagram videos don't have a title in description anymore right so how do you find something in the video so i think finding ways to help shoppers find what they need inside the video with video search and personalization recommendations it's going to be extremely important and key to really driving more conversion and i'll tell you there's that video just you know from our own experience here at viral video increases brand trust by twenty x okay it increases conversion anywhere from you know five to twenty eight percent and it drives deeper engagement so it went done right it works as magic you're talking like it's somebody saying a product like so they see it it's someone using a a product versus just reading about it or whatever like a twenty x jump yeah yeah absolutely like and again brand trust right mh for someone to see how something works right whether it's you're putting your furniture together in the house and it's a how to video or perhaps it's a makeup video and you're seeing actually how you can apply makeup for your skin right all of this or you're looking for recipe and you're just able to find in a in a thirty minute recipe you know what you wanna know how to bra the chicken right right if you're able to find those answers that really creates a delight and ultimately that's going to drive a purchase or maybe people will spend more time on your side and do more right i mean that's the ultimate goal that the brand so search is a big problem and the other big problem is no one has time to watch videos they just wanna both on the brand side you know when they get a lot of video data they wanna be able find the video that's going to help their shoppers right right so how do how do they find those nuggets and on the shopper side how do you find the video that's going to answer your burning question yeah so you can make a go no or even a comparison video right right how do brands do it today i know you guys been working on a solution for this to like before viral like how would brands do that how they find that yeah so to be honest with you like i think before viral what we were seeing was brands are creating content on their tiktok youtube and instagram but we were seeing that most customers i would say both brands and retailers are not utilizing that content on the e commerce site on their social side so i would say the first thing is make sure you bring all your video content that you're producing even on your social media at your e commerce site and website so we're seeing that gap right now where they're preaching a lot of content for social but hey they're forgetting that at the end of the day people do land on your website or your retailer on your product page right and it's the last mile where they make the product decision so if you can also influence them in that last mile in the shopper journey with video content that's going to be extremely helpful so would say that's number one the number two is we see a lot of companies just putting a video carousel and the video carousel is just plays there and again the problem is no one has it their ten videos right i don't have time to watch ten videos i just wanna find that relevant video right so how do you bring that relevancy is still a big problem on most sites and then brands are also they have a lot of videos how to video support videos and in most cases we just see a page with a list of videos so again they're missing out by providing search personalization some sort of recommendation engine they're missing out on really driving that self service journey if you will for the shopper to either buy product or address a comment or concern they might have with the video so you're tell talking about like a personal and on social media they're using a product and now the brand is leveraging that video to promote the product i wonder if there's any way you could create this kinda like you know loop where the person who created the video also benefits from that being used somehow like there's like a you know a link to them or something because that could even incentivize like oh now more influencers gonna wanna use my product because you know they might get mentioned now right they might get boost from that absolutely absolutely i think that loop is coming circular if you will mh so i'll give you just a couple of examples now we're like we're seeing now brands ask customers for video so today a bit of a manual process but then there are tools like viral like today after you make a purchase now with var you can set up a qr code or message to invite customers to make a video review right so what i'm gonna do is i'm going to show first a demo example on our site and then i'm gonna show you some live customers on how a number of our customers are using the video carousel and more intelligent i would say at var we have built the next generation video shopping experience if you will and really what we do is so this is an example where you're buying a electronic toothbrush on an old b website you land on the product page and there are five video reviews of videos on the page so now that's awesome you know how do you know which of these videos are talking about what right so for example let's say i wanna know what people are saying about it's a it's electronic toothbrush i wanna know what people are saying about the brush so i can easily instantly search voila var found the video now talking about search and you can see we generate all the key highlights and this is all ai and ml driven now that's so essentially we make all your video the audio text images and transcription searchable and we generate the clips we were searching for people are saying about the brush you can easily instantly find all the clips about the brush so now before viral you would have to watch the entire video now with viral you can just find the clips and so what this does is this helps you find the answers you're looking for across one video or multiple videos so if you look at the experience right we generate the video summary which is very extremely helpful for seo so google can read the summary and the tags and the transcript we also generate highlights on top of the videos so these are all the key highlights that we have generated on top of this about what's being said in the video as well so if i go to the next video it will show you the next search result about talking about brush and it also shows you the highlights as well right and what's cool is this is integrated with the shopping experience so as a shopper you can just or the shopper website this is integrated with buy now mh so essentially a customer can hit buy now and add the product to the shopping cart and make a purchase hey we'll me right back to the show but first to pay about another podcast i know you're gonna love it's called marketing against the grain it's hosted by kip wagner and karen flanagan and as brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals if you wanna know what's happening now in marketing especially how to use ai and marketing this is the podcast for you kip and kieran share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details the truth and like nobody else will tell it to you they recently had a great episode called using chat t o three to plan our twenty twenty five marketing campaign and was full of like actionable insights as well as just things i had not thought of about how to apply ai to marketing i highly suggest you check it out listen to marketing against a grain wherever you get your podcast yeah so i'm gonna just show you really quick a couple of other examples of live customers so we have a beauty brand rx they do beauty products for women especially for curly hair and they have now added a video content on all their sites it's a very rich engaging experience as you can see yeah know the previous video didn't have any speech so we didn't generate the highlights but whenever there's speech we generate the summary we generate all the key highlights of what they're saying so even as a shopper you don't have to like watch the entire video yeah you can watch to clip this relevant for you and make a purchase this thing's great for brands you know i think for average it's like product videos are so boring right yeah yeah and usually you watch them as like okay whatever it's like highly edited you know whatever yeah but like something like this like you actually see real people using the product that would convince me more you also for a brand that's great right because they don't even have to spend all this money on this advertisement it's not even gonna work exactly so the real people using it that's the ad right the and the beauty is you know we have integrated with instagram tiktok youtube drop us as good as so we can bring all your tiktok content that you're producing we can bring all that content to your e commerce site so essentially we have built a mechanism to pull in all your videos that you have already produced or you can also leverage our platform to capture video reviews as well so here's an example of a hair so this brand has increased their site engagement by about three point x they've increased their revenue overall conversion on average by about six percent last quarter so video has a direct impact because again you can see these at real testimonials from customers they're talking about how they can use the product and more right so i'll give you another example sir here's is a company that does hot sauce right so they have a number of recipes you know there's only so much heat i can bear right i don't need like very very hot foods yeah so i wanna know is your comment about eat in the about the sauce right so instantly it'll find the video talking about heat right mh so this is a game changer know what is this doing right this is going to help you instantly decide like for example this comment will help me decide whether you know where i wanna use the sauce is it talking about heat it even we generate all the key highlights above this hot sauce as well right so here we bring search personalization seo recommendation engine engineering buy now to all this content yeah i love that idea i i guess my one question there it's like that's almost like introducing a new user behavior though like are people interacting with that feature a lot to search because it's a amazing feature i'm just curious if people know how to use it right yeah it's a good question so what's happening right now is there's a couple things happening right like everything new it's very clear on top of the videos right that you can search mh right so we're also in the process of integrating this video search with your site search right okay so you have the site search i mean most people are familiar with text search right right so when you start typing the product name or you look for a keyword you will essentially find the videos it'll also surface video content as well so we're actually building this as we speak you should do probably like good suggestions as well right around like almost like auto complete slowly you're searching for that it's like how hot is it or or whatever something like this and then that's then it shows the videos right and i think to point though we're doing sort of a crawl walk run approach right the crawl approach is hey let's put an amazing video experience on your side the walk approach is let's make sure we integrate search across your entire side on all your pages as well right it could even you you might even have a support page for your brand right so we have different implementations you can put essentially on even on your homepage or your product page you can also put videos as well right so essentially marvel has a set of e commerce tools where you can bring search capability to you as for your site search for your home page we also bring a very rich video experience as i just showed you on your site as well it's a whole new way of shopping that's never happened before yeah seems awesome i guess one thing i keep helping my head is like i'm sitting thing about like the future of the web and my slight concern is like does chat g eat the web do people like you know basically you live in chat they're not even you know maybe the feature doing the browser like you literally just like open up the chat app and that's your like surface into the web versus using a browser yeah kinda worry about that i think to be honest like nathan it really is going to come down to trust yeah can you trust chad gp to complete your transaction i think there's already enough scams and fraud with payments and whatnot right yeah the the challenge is with any ll says even if they are able to i mean you know like to your point if you go in complexity it shows you you know it's looking for old b toothbrush it essentially brings up a quick pop up with the image mh it summarizes the reviews from multiple platforms so i think i think there's a benefit to getting that review perhaps a summary of the reviews on chad gp but ultimately my reward points are tied to amazon my reward points are tied to target right you see you who i'm going with this yeah so ultimately i believe that when a person is shopping they might even want to do comparison shopping and you know you can you can imagine retailers do a fairly decent job now showing you similar recommendations for similar products across multiple brands yep right then it also will depend on the size of the purchase as well so for example like you know you know people definitely buy the product is under fifty dollars you're very likely to purchase us on tiktok instagram i think the amount is much lower for trust and fraud to worry about versus when you're buying a car or were you when you're buying a three hundred dollar cappuccino machine and really wanna see all the videos yeah on how the machine works the express machine works so i would say that the last mile still happen on the retailer or the brand website i feel like what's probably gonna happen is chat people will send people to websites still i i i hope that's what's gonna happen right yeah i've been saying that's actually been a big thing i've been to thinking about and seeing people post on x about is that everyone saying that traffic from chest is converting better than google yeah which is just like oh crap so what does that mean that's a huge disrupt to google long term which google's now getting good at ai but it feels like people will still go to the website and when they when they're looking for the products yeah a lot of people love to see a video of of a real person using it and again you know also don't forget in store shopping experience i i would say ninety percent i'm still you know big purchases happen in store as well right so but can bring video to in store shopping you know we're seeing more and more packaging mh with qr codes we're seeing even on televisions in stores as well as they're playing different product reviews and product videos yeah you are now actually able to just scan the qr code interest and open a video experience is what read the reviews or watch the videos in store as well right so my point is i think it's gonna be an omni channel experience right at the end of the day you know there's a few places in japan i'm not sure if america has this yet but when you shop you just put the product down and then they know how many of the products you have i'm not sure exactly how they're doing that yeah you literally just put the products there and there's no scanning it just knows how of the products you have that'd be really awesome the future if there's some area in stores where it's like you just put the product down and then it's just like oh here on social media you know yeah all these people maybe there's like one famous person but then there's people who are not famous and he's kind of mixture and you you could just click it and watch the video of that'd be so cool again with the future of commerce with video is going to be very different yeah right now i would say it's more two dimensional video you know it wouldn't be surprised if we see three d arr vr experiences as well with with video content and reviews which you might be be able to just experience with your phone and maybe you as you're seeing more smart eyewear come through yeah i can see an application where you just stare at a product with your right right right and it's literally pulling the video review on your screen i'm not kidding right right it's coming it's a matter of time yeah can definitely see that in the future you're looking at product you see the reviews i wanna see videos as well that that's that's so cool so i think this might be a good segue into talking about you know what var does behind the scene yeah for sure i do a quick demo of the dashboard we're just a very teaser demo yeah so if you could show me how viral works show me the tech behind the scenes yeah you show me the widget so that's cool but like how would a brand actually use this yeah yeah absolutely so essentially you know the good news is most brands that do five million in plus in revenue already i have producing some video content so you know as i mentioned before the biggest challenge today is making all your video content searchable right and making it useful so really what i'm showing you is a demo for oral b it's really a sample snapshot of some of the data okay so in this case we captured twenty four video reviews the brand was interested in managing videos for a few of their electronic toothbrush products so what we did was we captured reviews from customers via qr code campaigns and we also captured reviews from social media so in this case these twenty four video reviews came in from either social media or via campaign so essentially on the world platform brand can essentially set up a qr code so here's an example where you can set up a qr code campaign and you can invite your shoppers so the brand actually sets this up and they set up the personalized experience and what you're seeing is actually a mobile experience they might issue give you a reward for making a video it's optional campaign description brand instructions and the big problem you have solved nathan is licensing mh so the biggest fear that brands have is someone putting a video on their site or something that has been unlicensed and they get into a lawsuit yeah okay how do you capture video reviews at scale right is the problem of the viral has solved so now with us you can essentially create a campaign and it generates a qr code and you can tie this qr code to your shopping experience so you can after a customer makes a purchase you can invite the customer to upload a video review so when they scan the qr code it will prompt them with the campaign details and it will invite them to upload a video and what happens is the video directly comes on the world dashboard and it gets analyzed so in this case we have twenty four reviews that came in the video is social we track your social media engagement we track demographic who's in the video by each ethnicity and agenda so you'll notice at a glance that there are forty to fifty olds missing it in the videos that we're we have actually analyzed who is in the video and by the way we don't store any personal information this is simply at a very high level right helping brands understand you know are people making your videos aren't there on target with your demographic right right so you notice there's no fifth forty two fifty olds in the video so maybe if they're targeting that demographic they should have videos featuring forty two fifty years old and then below we launched a rating system to at a glance brands can decide whether they wanna publish the videos or not so for these products for this sku we captured eleven reviews and they have a score of eighty nine so if the the hide the score better the video so the score is about sixty the brands can promote the video if the score is below forty is very negative mh and we even generate the highlights so if you select the video it will take you inside the video to the key highlight so as a brand manager e commerce team you don't have to really spend time watching all your videos now what makes viral really special and unique and you know recently we just landed a contract with tiktok to par video reviews for tiktok at for five hundred thousand tiktok shops and the reason we got that contract is we have hundred and fifty different filters on the platform so on the right you see all these filters so essentially it's a mechanism for brands to moderate their video content and all of this is offered we an api so you can now search by positive sentiment you can say show me everyone in the video that's eighteen to twenty four twenty five to thirty to thirty to forty years old and i'm looking for a video that talks about battery life that i wanna to promote so you can instantly search the word battery life or a product feature it'll show you all the comments about battery life and not only can you see the comment you can even open the video it will take you inside the video so essentially either tiktok will help capture a video after the purchases made on tiktok shop and then var will analyze the video and we'll have it merchant dashboard mh where tiktok merchants can log in into the viral dashboard they can see all the insights for all the video reviews yeah and they can then publish that content to tiktok shops so tiktok has given us exclusive right yeah to be able to publish video reviews that are vetted right oh awesome that's cheap because tiktok has thirty rules you know you cannot mention though at amazon in the video the video has to be less than three minutes long you cannot have minors in the video it has to be brand safe it has to be properly licensed right right there should be no profanity in the video so var is building a filter a tiktok filter or an amazon filter or or a or walmart filter to be able to vet this content with these filters we have on the right right yeah that's the use case for tiktok for other brands and retailers they can use our platform to manage all their video content across multiple skus across multiple platforms so we have one dashboard we are now going agent as well as so we just launched an ai e commerce agent mh where you can ask questions about your video data and you can get answers so here's a couple of examples you know i wanted to know what are some of the top topics being discussed in the videos right right so i can ask questions now so it gives me an answer so that's awesome so it now brands can instead of folk watching having to watch videos they can spend more time on action in content they can easily instantly get insights so they wanna create content well they just launch a new youtube toothbrush so hey what are customer thinking about cleaning right they get a summary along with the clips right right you probably could get unique insights from that too like absolutely people in japan or talking about this or whatever what are they saying and you're like you could actually learn about new opportunities for your brand do that too and speaking of insights these are all the insights we deliver and i'll just give you a quick example of an insight so if i open the speech report by the way brands love the speech report they use it for seo for identifying competitor mentions and trend analysis mh we can take you inside the keyword and you can even play the clip it'll take you inside the video right right so we have different reports and i wanna show you one last saying the level of insights we offer for our customers and the way we make the video searchable we generate the video summary we detect the sentiment score where the people are saying positive negative about your product or brand we detect languages sentiment analysis topics demographic we have marketing workflows you can do sentiment analysis of the audio we even break it down by product feature which has never happened before so we built our own models so it's not l labs we actually have our own ai about eighteen plus models that understand everything inside your video review and your video content you say eighteen models yes so that's why we've been at this for a while and we're going deep with our models in e commerce right so here's where you know we give you all the insights on your content so we then have mechanism to publish content so you can build your own carousel so programmatic automatically you can publish content to your site and you can customize the whole widget the colors you whether you want the highlights whether you want the search or not and instantly and we you can enable a search experience so that we have solved the holy of comment which is video search personalization seo recommendations and buy now inside the video so cool yeah so that's a quick what short demo one thing that like really stuck with me i was thinking one of the big values was like having the more organic videos talking about a product and so it seems like most brands are only doing the opt in is that like they have like a campaign that the main thing they're doing well today what happens is outside var they're not using var they usually do branded and influencer videos right the problem is how do you capture a licensing rights from your shoppers at scale right right so with viral yeah you can now program the qr code either with our api or with our campaigns on your store yeah and after a customer makes the purchase they get the qr code so essentially the customer scans the qr code makes the video accepts the licensing terms yeah they're sharing their licensing terms by the way right and essentially they're giving the right to use the video at scale yeah random idea like i would imagine like now you could take something like a i don't know the new gemini and i two point five or something like that yeah i'm not sure how well would working at scale but it seems like a really easy experiment but you could have that email or contact all these people and like hype it up where your name gonna be linked on there and stuff so you may gain some followers like if you're someone who has like two hundred followers or a thousand followers and like a brand's contacting you and it's like they're gonna show my face and they're gonna like link to me somewhere i i think a lot people if there was like a one flick opt in you know and then you got the contract it's like okay it's fine now it's it's good i'm not sure if you guys would do that that is something worth considering in the future yeah i mean i was just i'll just give you an example like i think where things are headed i'll give you a fun example so imagine you just watched mission impossible movie mh and you're coming out of the theater and you bought a ticket on fan den or amc theaters and imagine you get a quick nudge by the time you're home from tom cruise saying hey aj do you have a minute to chat with me so this is where feature of commerce and conversational ai is going with video reviews right so we imagine you open the video and you're just intrigued hey tom wants to talk to me right so you know yeah it's a license our tower of tom cruise is just to be clear yeah yeah right yeah yeah and imagine like tom says hey you could i have three questions for you do you think i should make mission impossible five right mh and how is the theater experience right and what else can we do better right or yeah any other ideas right right so this is where brands can program twenty five questions right maybe tom cruise his production company could have asked twenty five questions to his fans and followers yeah that's definitely gonna happen so i'm not sure if you know this but the original way i was using laura i was actually laura dot com is i was partnered with bear osborne and the producer lord the rings in the matrix yeah and he helped create wet with peter jackson right the big special bags company they also do a lot of the the gear and so i got like vip tour wet and and what i was shocked by was they had the facial scans of so many famous actors and apparently all of these studios and production companies they already we're thinking about ai oh yeah like a for a long time now they're like yeah in the future you're gonna want to have tom cruise rights to be able to use it in other products and you have some kind of revenue share with him or whatever his estate in the future that's crazy it's coming even with your podcast i wouldn't be surprised if another six months pop up comes up and you are chatting with me on your side you're gonna have a avatar you in saying hey aj what podcast should i be making what topics are you interested in and you're actually chatting with me to captures some information from your visitor side visitor right right right so yeah i'm telling you like where things are headed i think the future is gonna be amazing i i can't wait it's gonna be fun be fun and also just last thing i would say is i think all these platforms including viral you know we have to be transparent honest about what's ai generated versus not right i mean right just a quick point i make is that you know when it comes to video reviews people do not want ai generated video reviews i'll tell you that so we're building tools to identify to make sure that our review is human generated and we're validating it's a human on the camera not something else if you were building a business today how would you be preparing for like these changes are coming with shopping like how could you take advantage of the changes that are happening well i think from a company perspective i would say that it's really important now that all your employees are up to speed and trained on ai and how what ai does ai works in fact right i would say that the first question in the interview should be ai related right so i would say that training is very important and the other thing is also make sure you are on top of things like whatever domain you're in there's plenty of newsletter there's plenty of tools now i would say be hands on like i think we live in an age right now where whether you're a ceo or whether you're you know or everyone in the company right at all levels right need to be playing with tools because and now you know tools are free right they're easily accessible on your browser there's a reason to complain that you don't have access right right think that excuses has gone away right right and also like getting your employees to play with tools as well let's have people try different things right right and in general there's a transformation happening as well right and then eventually figuring out you know what is going to make your job easy cost effective how can we bring more efficiencies for employees right with ai i think that's starting to happen we're already seen that in our company as well right yeah yeah i've been saying tons of different ceo starting to share like almost like an ai first approach to hiring like yeah not trying to have less people but make sure everybody you're hiring knows how to use ai because i just gonna amplify their outputs by you know so much more yeah well it's been awesome talk with about think i learned a lot especially about tiktok and by how people are finding products through social videos it makes a ton of sense like i think in the future it'll be like how kind of described in the beginning where the l lim will know you very well they'll be really great for like buying basic things yeah but there will also be things where you wanna discover new products and you know sync social proof is huge there it's huge i i would say like there are five areas directly that be impacted in future with ai like or with chat tb and that is content generational consciously conversational ai with video mh personalization seo you know i think the reason now elements are doing a better job is they're they're able to better understand content than i worked before right i think that's the problem they have solved right whether its video or audio or text so seo will get better seo will improve significantly with l as well i'm now even like coin the word l which is l based engine optimization if you will oh okay you know what i mean like yep i've been saying ai this should does it exactly make sense but it's kinda catch where should people check you out like should they check out your website or are you active or like absolutely so you know we're very active on linkedin yep you can check out on my website as well so if you just go to world dot com slash commerce if you wanna play with the experience you can do that by the way the word viral is it's a play on the word id videos go viral right but it's filled a little bit differently it's v r i l l so it's viral right again v alright l dot com var dot com cool yeah we'll put a link in the description so yeah it's been great and yeah hope see you again sometime thank you awesome

everyone somewhat vibe coating but the reality is for most things vibe coating doesn't work right now and even the guy who coined the term andre carp he recently posted that he's now trying to provide more context to models because he realized that's what you have to do to get good results back welcome to the next wave podcast i'm your host nathan lands and today i'm gonna show you the secret weapon that all the top ai code are using now everyone's talking about vibe coding this vibe code that but what they're not telling you that you can't vie code most of anything that's actually important right now for any important ai coding you wanna give it the proper context to know what it's doing versus just throwing everything at which is what cursor and winds and a lot of these other tools there one's talking about do today i've got the founder of repo prompt eric k on here and he's gonna show you how you can use repo prompt to take your ai coating to the next level so let's just jump right in cutting your cell cycle and half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hub hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results are pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and get this qualified leads quadrupled who doesn't want that people spent three times longer on their landing pages it's incredible go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow thanks for coming on yeah yeah it's nice you know finally put a face to it you know been chatted it for a while yeah and it's cool you've been using repo prompt for a few months now yeah yeah i've been telling people about repo prompt for like the last you know probably six months or so kinda felt like it's been almost like my like ai coding secret weapon you know it's like yeah i everybody talking about cursor and now windsor and i do find cursor useful mh but i was like why is no one talking talk about repo prompt was like for me every time i get into like a complicated project been as soon as the project got a little bit complicated the code from chris would just stop working for me like it was know what was going on you could tell it wasn't like managing the context properly mh and then then when o one pro came out that was when i really noticed free repo problem start using it a lot you had to go to o one pro to really get the best out of ai for coding at that absolutely wouldn't even work with the one pro it's a repo prompt was by far the best and it was just kinda shocking me like only like a few people on x are talking about this yeah most people don't know about it yeah i mean like it's the only tool that i used to work with ai and you know for a long time it was just on it and i would feel like i was able to get when a lot more out of sonic than other tools just because you know the full context window was there and you know i wasn't bleeding through the nose of api costs doing using the the web chat and just let me get to a place where i was able to get a a tool that was able to do like not just like putting in context out but like taking the changes back in and applying them yeah i like the thing on the number one when you said submitted i actually like look at the stats and that i don't think that's even true anymore yeah yeah i really would bring you on address all that tweet from andre carp yeah so andre carp he used to be at tesla ai he's like of the best engineered about how l work and things like that he had his tweet saying noticing myself adopting a certain rhythm in ai assisted coding i code i actually and professionally care about contrast to vibe code you know he coined to term vibe code which everyone's been using and then he basically goes on the top about like stuffing everything relevant into context all this i was like he literally he doesn't know about repo prompt yeah i'm like how do this like top ai educator in the world top expert everything totally has no idea about rep repo prop i was like okay so i need to get eric on the podcast and try to help with that yeah appreciate that yeah i mean yeah looking at that that's tweet you see exactly like that flow that like omni me started like when you start getting serious about coding with ai like start thinking like it will how do i get the information to the ai model and like the ux on all these other tools is just not cutting it you need a tool to just be able to quickly select search for your files like find things and yeah you know i recently i added the context builder i don't know if you've tried that out you know if you could explain like try to simplify it yeah i think we should then just jump into a demo and we can kinda of just go over from there sure thing sure thing yeah i mean the first thing you're gonna do when you're you're gonna open up rep repo prompt just pick a folder so like can either open a folder manually or just go to the last one's used but generally when you're working with code base like this and flutter like this has a lot of like different build targets and things that are not like relevant to working with flutter if you don't familiar flutter it's a way of working to build multi platform maps and so you can see it's got like linux macos os web and all that stuff but yeah like when you're working in a repo like this you wanna think through like what are the files that are or going through and if you're using a coding agent like with cursor or whatever the first thing they're gonna do when you ask a question is okay well let me go find what the user's trying to do let me the search for files and pick those out and if you know what you're doing with your code base you tend to know like okay well i'm working on this button toolbar great so i'll just like clear the selection out and i'm just working on these these use here great so i've selected those and that's so then i can see you know token use for those files it's pretty small so i'm able to just get to work type my prompt and paste that in here help me update all the docs pages so if i do that and then i just do gemini flash quickly to show what that looks like so the context builder the way that works is it will actually search for files using an l based on the prompt you've typed out you know a big part of using rep repo prompt is that you have to know you know what it is that you're trying to select here right right and you know what i noticed a lot of users is they were just putting everything they would just say like okay just select all and and that'd would be and you'd be get the first yeah i mean an easy thing to do like okay well there's the code base per but know there's plenty of tools that can just step up your code base and that's easy but like the power of prompt is you can be selective you don't have to select everything so i can just hit replace here and then okay well what did that do okay well that actually found all these files here that are related to my query put them in order of priority of like importance based on what the l judgment is and of course if use gemini flash you're not gonna get the best results compared to like using you know like what bigger model like gemini two point five pro but it'll pick those out it'll use something called code maps to help with that and you can see the actual token file selection inquiries is it's just six k tokens mh working with a code base if you've spent some time you know programming in the past i'm got a lot of folks they're not super familiar with all the technical there but like live coding yeah exactly exactly so re has this code map feature and what this will do is it will basically as you add files it'll index them and extract what's called like it's a map but if you've used c plus plus before there's like a a header file and a cp file and what that is is basically you're explaining to the compile like what is all the definitions in this file like you've got your functions you've got your variables and all that stuff and so it's like a high level extracted kind of an index not can index of your code me exactly yeah the context builder uses that data to help you find what the relevant files are based on your so it has like kinda of peek inside the files without having all of the details and it's able to kinda surface that relevant information for you so that you can use that in a prompt one thing i live about repo prompt so when i first started using it i had been like using just like a custom script i had created mh to like take my code base and like and then like put you know the relevant know context in there which a lot of times i was just doing all of i was literally putting all to a single file and i'd copy and paste that in into chat to t yep i think tweet about this and someone told me like oh you gotta try repo prompt actually i tried repo prompt the fact that i could like see how much context i was sharing yeah with the model was amazing and and it seems like that's super relevant too because you know at least from the benchmarks i've seen you know everyone's sick talking about how much context you put into their hell know don't think on the benchmarks for llama four mh as soon as you went over like a hundred and twenty eight k context like nowhere near the ten million yeah like the quality just like dropped like like a rock well until gemini point five came out pretty much all the models you would really wanna stay below thirty two k tokens in general i find like over that you're just losing a lot of intelligence so there's this concept of effective context you know the effective context window like at what point does the intelligence stopping being like as relevant for that model and for a lot of smaller models and local models it's a lot lower and you probably wanna stay around eight k token lot but like for bigger models thirty two k is of good number as only now a gemini that you're able to kind of use the full package the full context window but yeah so you're using this context you've picked out your files say you you wanna use as many as you want a hundred k like what do you do with that so like you have a question like help me change how links are handled with my docs and so i have a question here i'm just gonna paste it to o three and you'll see like what is o three getting out of this so it's getting basically this file tree so it's getting a directory structure of this project it's getting basically the high level code maps of the files that i haven't selected so basically when it's set to complete everything that i haven't selected gets kinda shipped in and then you have the files that i did selected and so then the context is able to go ahead and it's able to do that and so this is like a great way to kind of just get this information into o three get the most out of this model recent an expensive model if you're trying to use it a lot like this is a great way to kinda get more value out of it move fast and get good responses i think the average person like people who are just using chat tb are you people who are coding with cursor they don't realize that you can do that that you can literally just copy and paste all of that context in there and that the l gets that and it understands what to do yes you know in contrast to judge claude is very good at following instructions like it's the best model at following instructions i find mh and i think this is another thing that rep repo prompt those quite well is so it's got like tools to kinda send information into the l but it's also got tools to go ahead so it's now it's gonna go ahead and write an xml plan and it's gonna create this steam selector and it's gonna add these files and and change files for me and what's cool with this is that i can just go ahead and use cloud with my subscription and then have it modify all these files so it's space creating all these files and it can search and replace parts of files so i don't have to re update and re upload the whole thing yeah have it out output the complete code so a lot of models struggle with you know when people are notice that they're like all smells really lazy it's not giving me the whole code but like this kind of circumvent prevents that issue because lets the ai just kinda get a an escape patch just do what he needs to do here right you know sometimes what i'm quoting like this i'll iterate like so i pasted this question right with o three and often what i'll do is i'll read through the answer and then i'll i'll change my prompt and then paste again into a new chat and try it and like see where the result is different because basically i look at like here's the output okay i actually don't care maybe about this copy link button okay then i'll put specifically put a mention in my prompt to say like let's let's kind of just focus on this part of the question and kind of re it and that's a nice thing with this is that i could just hit copies as many times i want if you're paying for a pros sub like there's no cost to trying things there's no cost to hitting paste again and you know what you just try again you just paste again let the model think again and try things and i think that's like a really important way of working with these models is to experiment and try things and and see how does changing the context what files you have selected your prompt i use these stored prompts that come built in the app so there's the architect and engineer and these kinda help focus the model to give them roles so like if i'm working on something complicated the architect prompt will will kinda focus the model on just the design and have it kind of not think about the code itself whereas the engineer is just the code like don't worry about the design just just kinda give me the code but just the things that change maybe we should explain like when you say engineer prompt it's literally you're just adding stuff that you copy and paste into the saying like mh you're an expert engineer and this is what i exactly for you expect for you to give me mail that's your job do it and that literally you how the hell work be like okay i'll do it absolutely yeah giving them roles is is crucial telling them who they are what their job description you know what what do i look for like giving them a performance review evaluation all that stuff like i i find like the more detailed you are with your prompts the more you can help like kinda color the response as an interesting way so just adding the engineer probably like it's spent more time thinking about it so here this time it kind of said okay this is the file tailwind here's the change and this is the change that i'm gonna do in a code blog so you know for the longest time before i had any of these xml features i was just kind of using repo prompt then like getting these outputs and then just copying them back into my code base manually and kind of reviewing them right i was like really the anti pieces of if vibe coating wherever this kinda automated yeah so i showed you a lot of stuff like pasting back seeing this xml and then kind of putting it back in what's really nice with rep repo prompts like chat flow is that all of that is automated so if you wanna a vibe code and kind of think about it like just not think about anything while being kind of cost effective too you can do that kinda work here and basically the way this works here is i had g four point one as my main model this is all the context i gave it and then my pro edit mode what it'll do is it'll actually ask a second model to apply the edits so i have gemini flash that will go ahead and rewrite the file for me and just kinda do that work so i don't have to manually kind of incorporate so if i was looking at here like okay this is the tailwind file i'd have to open that up and then go ahead and introduce it in but having it kinda just go in the chat having different models kinda do that work you know it makes a big difference working on repo prompt it's really like there's building your context that's like the biggest thing just picking what you want you wanna front load that work and you know in contrast to using agents you're gonna have those agents kind of run off do a lot of work call a bunch of tool calls you see like o three kind of thought for fifteen seconds thought through some tools to call and it didn't really make sense it just kinda kept going and and ended up doing this and if you've used cursor or a lot you know you'll see like often using o three it'll call tools that like read this file read that file read this file but if you just give it the files upfront right and you just kind of send it off to work with your prompts you right away you get a response and you're like okay well does this make sense to me am i able to use this instead of loving it kinda surf an hour yeah it's a little bit more work at least right now but it's you i think you get a lot better results so it's yeah yeah yeah get just front loading that context being able to think through and iterate on that and that's the whole philosophy around it it's just like thinking through like making this easy the context builder helps you find the that context you know eventually i'm gonna add mc p support so you can query documentation find find things related to your query as well and just spend time as an engineer sitting through what do i want the yellow to know and then what do i want to do and then make that flow as quicken and as painless as possible and like that's kind of everything and i think you know going forward as you get serious coding the ai like that's what the humans job is in this lupus engineer's job is figuring out the context i think that's the new software engineering job hey we'll be right back to the show but first on to pay about another podcast i know you're gonna love it's called marketing against the grain it's hosted by kip wagner and karen flanagan and as it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals if you wanna know what's happening now in marketing especially how to use ai and marketing this is the podcast for you kip and kira share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details the truth and like nobody else will tell it to you they recently had a great episode called using chat t o three to plan our twenty twenty five marketing campaign and was full of like actionable insights as well as just things i had not thought of about how to apply ai to marketing i highly suggest you check it out listen to marketing gets a grain wherever you get your podcast like i said before i i'm so surprised i lot people haven't talked about this because like mh for me like right now cursor is good for like something very simple like okay change some buttons or change some links or change whatever you know but anything complicated repo prompt i got like way way better results so yeah i i i'm curious like you know have you ever thought about like this being used for things outside of coding and do you think it would be useful for anything outside of coding yeah i mean i've i've got an academic reach out to me tell me they're using it for their work there's folks in different fields for sure i think some of the ux has to probably improve a little bit but in general like you know if you're working with plain text files you know reaper repo prompt can service those use cases for sure it's all set up to read any kind of file and then apply ed to any kind of file too like i don't differentiate it can read it then i'll apply edits for you and i think a whole bunch of work is around just like gathering context then kind of iterating on stuff like even you know in doing legal work i do think you know a flow is still missing from this app it's just that like kind of collaborative nature i think there's still some work that needs to kind of be done to kind of make this a more collaborative tool make this a tool that that kind of syncs a little bit better with different for things like for now like developers use git and like that's that kind of collaboration bedrock rock but i think like lawyers you need other things yeah yeah that's something i i think do is like yeah repo prompts super useful but you had to be a little bit more advanced like fit in the here inspired code or the average person using an l and yeah you know no fancy you can kinda tell one person has built this you know it's it's amazing but you you can tell yeah yeah yeah no it's all good kinda curious like why did you not go to the dc route where's repo bet right now like where is it now and what's you're plan for you know i've had a lot of folks you know bring that up me and they're kinda thinking through like you know why not vc or whatever and i think it's not something that a the doors closed on forever it's just i think right now it's it's working i'm able to build and you know i'm able to kind of listen to my users and pay attention to what they need and i think it's just not super clear to me like where this all goes you know like this is an app that is like super useful and it's like helping me and i'm able to build it but like is it something that necessarily makes sense to like have like you know you know a hundred billion dollars invested into it to grow a huge team to like build maybe i don't know but like you know i wanna kind of take things as they go as well and you know right now i'm able to some monetize it a bit you know it's got some passionate users you know it's working well this way but again like it's all new you know to me like i've not gone through this whole you know vc story myself i've have friends who kind of shy me away from it but you know i i try to like listen to the folks around me too and see where yeah there's pluses in minuses to vc like you hear all on twitter and things like that people who are like b horrible or oh it's amazing you there's good and bad all of it yeah you know i feel like everything with ai right now it's like who knows what's going to happen like yeah in in a year everything could be different in five years who the hell knows right yeah like right now because ai is such a big wave that's why we call the show next wave right yeah it's such a large wave of transformation happening that you are going to see the largest investments ever yeah i think in history yep as well as the largest acquisitions ever yeah and i think these are have yet to come yeah we're like in the early part of this transition i think the best two routes for you in my opinion it would be either to go really big and go to the vc route or to go more like hey who knows what's gonna happen win it i just wanna like get my name out there and i can leverage my name for something else in the future and like open source that's my kind of thought on strategically what i would do it's like either go really big or open source it if free and just put it out there and say yeah you know and get some reputation benefit from it there is a free it's not open source yeah but there's is you know the thing about open source actually is something i've thought about a lot and the big issue with it right now especially as people are are building ai tools is that like it's never been easier to fork a project and kind of go off and just build it as a competitor if you looked at klein like clients a a big tool you know that came around at actually started to run a similar time as me working in rep repo prompt and if you're not familiar the client is a ai agent that sits in bs code and it it's pretty cool but the thing that is not so cool about it is that it eats your tokens for lunch like that thing will churn through your wallet like faster than any other tool that exists just because it goes off mh and reads files stuff the context as big as possible a lot of people really enjoy using it because it does good results for certain things yeah but yeah that cost is very high but the thing that i was trying to bring up with this is that like so klein was actually fork a few months ago by another team of developers and it's called bruce the alternative and if you're look at open router in some stats like ro actually surpassing klein so you know that fork is now what we're overtaking the original and you know that's the kind of space that we're in where like different teams will kinda take your code take it in their direction and then all of a sudden they've overtake you and you know you kinda lose track of you know where things are going there so like it's a crazy space it's never been easier to open pull request with ai you don't need to understand the code you're like oh i have this open source project i'm just gonna fork it yeah add my features and kinda going and it's a tricky thing but like you know having a free version and kind of trying to ship and grow a community of users who are passionate will like can talk back to you and and you know i mean that's kind of the route off i've taken right now and it's kind of been working so far i was in beta for a long time yeah you know it's still new was figuring out where to go next with it and it's mac only right now is that correct yeah that's true it's mac lee and i think a part of that is that i started off you know just kind of trying to think about like you know how do i build this in a good way and the problem is like i immediately ran into issues trying to build for different platforms and like i spent a bunch of time debugging just getting sv gi icon rendering you know all these little things that are just like rabbit holes and you're like okay well you're so abstract from the base of like what's happening and you spend a lot of time just solving build issues that it's like i'm just gonna go ahead and do build native and just run with it and and have better performance doing so like you know if you open an id like vs code you open up like a huge repo what actually happens is that load the file tree and it will just kind of lazy load everything like not everything needs to load because if you're opening an ide you know as a code or traditionally you only have a couple files open at a time maybe you have a dozen right you're not gonna be processing fifty thousand files at the same time an ai model can you know if you give it to gemini like gemini i will want all those files and will want as much as you can give it because they can read all of it and so you need a tool that is built different that it's kind of organized in a way where it's kind of thinking first through that performance of mass data processing that you need to kinda do it's a whole different way we're getting that's why it's native because like i i want that performance processing all these files there's all this concur happening where you're like in parallel editing these files like processing them and doing all this stuff like it's very hard to do if you're just you know using javascript or types script when i use repo prompt it seems like you've done a really great job of building it it works really well it is all just you like right now yeah it is just me yeah i i working down a lot yeah that's crazy yeah it's couple a long way i iterate reiterated a lot on it you know but that's the power of dog food into like if you don't feel the dark like folks listening dog food is when you like kind of use your own product to iterate on it and build with it and you kind of make it a habit of making sure that you're a number one user of your app you know your own product to make sure that you see all the stuff that sucks about it and for the longest time like you know it's really sucks and just that struggle and that that pain of using it and forcing yourself to feel that pain like that's what makes it good that's that's where you're able to kind of feel those things that the user's using the apple field and and that's when you end up with something that is great in the end so where do you think reaper repo prompt is going like long term which maybe now maybe long term now means like one year yeah we're very about going next year that's long term it's hard to say honestly like it's weird you know like in december like open announces o three and they're like oh i'd be all that r gi test and you're like well this like what is this like and then it cut shifts and it's like okay i mean like it's a better model it lies to you it's not like the messiah you know right so it's hard to say like i don't know like where we go like i have ideas on like where the future is one year from now i think i'll have to adopt this product and and keep iterating on it to kinda stay relevant so it's gonna keep changing but like i think that the flow i'm kinda pushing towards of that context building i think that remains relevant for a while longer and what improves is like the layers of automation around that work so i think like long term i still think that is kind of the vibe that i wanna go towards though i think just like integrating mc just embracing that like universal individuality of all of these different tools so for folks listening say if they're not sure like what is mc as another acronym we got lots of ai so the idea there is traditionally if you use like claude or open they have tools and those tools you know one of them could be like search the web or one of them could be like read the files on your thing or look up documentation or these kinds of things and there's this protocol mc that like creates like an abstraction layer so that any client app can implement this protocol and then users can bring their own tools so if a user comes in and says like oh i wanna use and there's new one that's really cool called contact seven where basically they've gone head built a server that fetch the latest documentation for whatever programming language you're using and we'll kind of pull that in as context so you can say okay great fetch the latest angular docs or whatever docs you're you're you care about and then you can bring that so that kind of work where you're like doing that context retrieval that's super important or like you stripe has one too where basically all the docs for their tool is set up and you know you you just plug in the stripe mc p and then all of a sudden if you're trying to code your way through integrating stripe like that's super easy the the work is kinda handled you can plug in your api keys onto it so it can even talk to the back end for you that whole work is kind of automated so it's all about having tools for folks using these models to kind of automate connecting to different services in this like universe of all these different you know services that exist the world i kinda think about it most i mean it's different than xml but for me i think of it as almost more just cal xml is like the information language ai i can understand mh mc is like the same thing with like any service you wanna use or tool it knows half for the ai i know how to work with those things mh yeah and if funny don't enough if you mention xml because that's actually one of the things that i do a lot with is parsing xml and i think one strength there that i have that like a lot of other tools are kind of ignoring so traditionally when you're working with these language models that developer and you can see this if you chat t you'd be like hey like search the web it's gonna use the the search tool and you'll see it say you called tool search and it'll go through but what happens when it's doing that is that basically it calls that tool it stops waits for the results and then continues i think it like the robot is kind of being reboot a new session with that new context because basically every tool call is a new query so you're giving back the old information but you're not necessarily talking to that same instance it's like a different ai instance that is answering your question from the new checkpoint so like that's like a weird thing so you know as you're making all of these tool calls if you're use cursor you know it'll make like a hundred tool calls but by the end of you know you've gone through twenty five different instances of these models and then you get a result at dan and you're like well you know it's like weird like what actually happen you know there's some data loss like weird stuff you know we don't know how this is yeah doesn't seem like they could create like reliability issues right because like you know the like sometimes they could be amazing results and other times so it's like what do what do this and so every time you're doing new tool it sounds like you're almost recreating the chance it going wrong in a way exactly yeah you're you're aggregating this issues yep but you don't even know where that infer could be different servers that are actually processing all these different tool calls and yeah it's weird sometimes you'll have like oh that server has some like chip issue on its memory and like that actually causing some weird issues where cloud is actually really done today but on the other one it's a lot smarter because their chip the memory chip is working fine you know you don't know right so that kinda of thing so just to close that back in on what i'm doing yep the way that i've kinda gone about this is the way i call tools is you have your xml and the ai will just answer in one instance and it'll just give you the whole thing and it can call a bunch of tools in there and it can be like hey like i wanna call this this do this and this and then i just parse that and then bulk call the tools and then get the results and then we go another instance with the results and you can kinda go back and forth like that so like not have to wait on each single one you're actually just bulk sending them out getting that data it's a lot more efficient you're able to process say like twenty five queries you know get re twenty five file will bring them all in you know let's work from there and see how it goes and so that kind of thinking so i think there's a lot to kind of play with in terms of you know how you're even getting this data back and forth from the because at the end of day it's all text you know text and images maybe on some video in some cases but like really text just for you're coding like that's that's the thing that that you're working with and you can do a lot with tax manipulating it and playing with it to to kinda get good output so what do you think i've heard you know yc and others i think gary tan said that i can't if it was eighty percent but i think he said like eighty percent of the code for the the startups ups going through y right now is ai generated that number could be wrong mh do you think in three years from now do we still have like normal engineers who don't use ai is that a real thing do you still have the hold outs well first of all like i think saying a percent like that of how much of it is ai generated it's a bit misleading to be hyped too like i can go ahead and like every line of code i could basically like type it in pseudo code to the ai model and like have it paste it back in as like a fleshed out javascript function and say a hundred percent of my codes written by ai it really depends on how your workflow is what your pipeline looks like i do think fundamentally the job of an engineer has changed it's already done it's already completely different like you can't you can't work the same way but it depends on what point in the stack you're working on like i i work for some folks to do some like really low level you know graphics work and i talked someone about like how they can't really use ai models because the ai model just everything like it it's it's just not trained on anything that they work on so it's just useless for them but then if you work out someone is a you know web developer well a hundred percent of the quote like like ninety eight center of the training code is web code and web framework code and so it's like okay well yeah a hundred percent of that work can be done by ai is really easy so it really depends on where you are in the stack what kind of tool you're working with and you know how well the they ai models can help you in that but i think like as we move forward more and more you're gonna wanna have ai models thinking through hard problems for you because it just happens much faster as to get better at math solving like you know connectivity architecture like architecture something that like these o three and o one pro and hopefully o three pro is just excel they're very good at finding good ways of like organizing your code and helping you plan how you connect things together and i think that's a big part of software engineering in general is just organizing your code because the actual process of writing it like you know that's not the fun part or even the interesting part it's that part of organizing and i think a human job with this is to like iterate on those plans iterate on these ideas because that's like the kernel of what ai will generate code with yeah so i think that's where the work is you know i still open the editor like when i'm working on repo prompt i don't write a ton of code by hand like most of it is done by ai but like i spend a lot of time thinking about i spent a lot of time thinking about problems and debugging and thinking through like i won't just like hit the button and say like solve my problems fix my bug like that's just not helpful but like if i read through the code i'll be okay like i i think there's like a data race going on over here this part connecting to this part like there's some concur issue i'll add some logs okay great i've got some idea of like what's going on here perfect then you can kinda feed that data into the ai model and have it kind of think through you know a resolution and often once you've done those steps of troubleshooting the ai model can solve your problems but you have to sit down and think through how things are connected and understand what is actually happening so i think that's kinda where that will change yeah it's a great engineering answer yeah that's i'm looking for the thing that goes viral on x right that you know like yeah yeah engineers will be gone next year this kind of the you know listen the job is fully changed i i think from today on like if you're not using these tools you're not learning how they work like i think that's like an issue because like i don't think you know a traditional engineer who spends this whole career just typing code like that doesn't exist anymore but what does exist is someone who understands code and who can read it and who understands you know what questions ask and if you're prompting like about the code if you understand you know the connections that's where you're gonna get the best results and that's why like a tool like group prompts is so helpful because you're able to do that and feed the right context then but if you're just saying like make the button blue or like move it over here i mean that works for to some extent you know if as long as your instructions are simple enough and you know what you want you can get there but like at a certain point you fall off and you know that's when it stops working and maybe that point where you fall off gets further and further as the models improve but i don't think that like in the next ten years we get to a point where that point stops existing one thing that we didn't talk about that i was kinda curious to talk about i was like what do you do a unity so what i do there is i've been doing a kind of xr research and xr engineering and so we're on a toolkit called the xr interaction toolkit and basically it's a framework for developers to build interactions with xr so if you're if you're putting on an oc quest or your a h lens or you know like apple pro you wanna basically interact with objects in your scene in your world you know like in ar if you're walking up and you wanna pick up a virtual cube like how do you process that interaction of you grabbing the cube and picking it up and looking at it so that's like i've done a lot of research on that that interaction of like input like i written specs that are adopted for like the industry in terms of han interaction so like you know just tracking your hands how you grasp something what should you be doing if you wanna poke a button that's like not there like what does that look like so that kind of stuff that's that's what i do there that's amazing i like that's a really complicated engineering work how are you doing that doing a repo prompt and then you have a baby like yeah how you take all this i mean i don't have a lot of free time obviously i yeah yeah but i'm passionate about what i do at work too and and then rupert prompts you know this this is my other baby and i just think a big part of it is just you know when folks come to me and there's like something that's like bugging them about the app you know i i just get like an itch and i i have to fix it for them yeah so like i just keep tripping on it and but i try to get some sleep so i don't cut through that too much one thing i was thinking about too is you can you have a son eleven year old you've got a baby yeah this actually one reason even like you know help start this podcast was i'm constantly thinking about where ai is going and wanting to stay ahead yeah and also think about what does it mean for me and my family quite honestly you know a self level now and people used to ask me like when my son was born because he was born in san francisco around tons of like in you know of course founders and vcs other the companies people would be around like the birthday parties right there's all people from like yc and people like that and it'd be asked me like you know what do you think your son should do in the future what will his job be you know this is like eleven years ago and i was talking about drones like he planning to be like a drone def defense engineer like building anti drone systems or something it's would be my common line that i would say at parties now with ai like at that point we did not know ai would advance as fast as it has no it's having so fast right was all just like a some stuff out of a book it's was like oh yeah sure they're coming at stanford and they get some cool demos but like nothing's working no now it's working so like with your child have you thought about that yeah like of course what do you should learn and i have no idea no idea everyone right like like what do you even teach your children like is it is it important to learn a code is it we teach them logic morals probably all of this and more and yeah being flexible and super fluid i think so know but it is funny on that topic i look at engineers coming out and learning to code with ai around and i think they're at a disadvantage you know it's unfortunate that like you know if you're starting a code today and you have ai to lean on you just don't have that struggle you just don't have the pain that like i had to go through when i started to code when you know when engineers who've been in the field for so long that had to struggle and not get the dopamine hit of a fixed problem right away like to study it and understand how it works like that just doesn't exist anymore because the ai just solves it for you and i think that's shooting the code but it's gonna be more and more true in every field and so i think like there's gonna be a need for people to have the restraint to kind of put aside these tools to struggle a little bit i think there's a ton of value and kind of using them to learn and and grow but there's also like that restraint that you need to form to kind of have the struggle because that's where the learning is and it's really tricky and i and i don't know how you you solve that now because it's it's too easy not to struggle now which is which is a big problem yeah i've heard the jonathan blow and a few you know his of course have the game designer mh he talks about exactly what you're saying that you know it's in the future like yeah sure i could get amazing at coding in the future but it's also gonna create an issue we're like just like you said people are not gonna learn the properly code was already complaining of that before ai ai yeah the code was shipped and then now the ai it's like okay now we're kinda screwed i guess because like yeah we're gonna have a situation where we're like no one knows what's going on and then like yeah you're entirely dependent on the ai for everything yeah it's a crutch so easy to reach for it and what do humans do but that's the thing i i think maybe that's the middle part you know where where we're at this point where it's like the ai is just not quite good enough to kind of solve all the problems and you still have problems to solve and you still have people that need to kinda work with the machine to kinda of figure out how to go mh maybe at some point in the future it all of it is moot i know some folks think that and maybe it doesn't matter but i think you know there's gonna be some discomfort in the middle where you know the machines are not quite good enough to solve problem we lean on them as if they are and then you know we're kind of at atrophy a lot of skills that we we you haven't driven in a tesla with f but i've heard folks say the same thing there we're like if they're using it all the time they actually like suck at driving without it and it's like right you know like more and more that's gonna kinda be a thing where where like you're that that is like thing where we start to like like we're like almost living in like one of those sci novels right like everything being super super safe and live in japan everything you have live in francisco everything super safe in japan it is one reason i like it but you do lose some freedom in that yeah but do i want my son you know driving now like but if i really think about it there's an alternative of yeah not necessarily you know i agree i mean i have that same debate with my wife you know what was saying like i don't think our daughter is gonna ever have a driver's license it's just like i don't think so you know like i we'll see but i don't know like there is the safety part for sure and i think that's like really interesting and and hopefully like that is the case that like i just does make it safe for yeah right so eric has been awesome and yeah maybe we should you know tell people where they can find you and where they can find repo prompt and yeah so i'm punch with a v on x so it's like pb n c h e r on x and most most social that's my handle over so you can reach out there my dm are open if you have questions and repo prompt repo prompt dot com so you can just head over there and find the app free to download and nice to discord community too if you wanna hop over there and send me some messages and tell me what to think like please do yeah thanks for having me on nathan been great chatting with you yeah appreciate it it's been great yeah yeah yeah i have a lot of thoughts cheers likewise take care alright