The Next Wave - AI and The Future of Technology

welcome to the next wave podcast the show where we sit down with the people shaping the future of business and technology today's guest is kit bad the chief marketing officer over at hubspot one of the most influential marketing leaders in the world kip us on the front lines of how ai is transforming marketing from boosting productivity and reshaping roles to rethinking how brands actually stand out when everyone has the same tools we dive into hubspot brand new loop marketing playbook the bold idea that taste beats tactics and even how they drove a four hundred percent increase in email engagement using ai personalization so if you're a creator entrepreneur or just someone curious about the future of marketing and the ai era this episode is packed with insights you don't wanna miss so let's jump right in with kip wagner hey kip thanks so much for joining us on the show today really appreciate you of being here matt thanks so much for having me i'm honored as a lover of all things ai to be on the next wave of big deal yeah man we're gonna definitely nerd out on this one so what i wanna dive into to begin with is i wanna learn a little bit about what the day to day looks like of a cmo over at hubspot know i just kinda wanna start by exploring my own curiosity a little bit here it's a great question when you're like running a marketing org for a skilled company what you're really doing is figuring out what did the react of problems i have to go and solve immediately that are super urgent and how do i not let those distract myself from like the big priorities that we have and so that's at a high level but what that really means is i actually just like doing a lot of real marketing making content writing copywriting approving web pages talking about campaigns with a big given event this weekend inbound obviously so prepping and planning and making sure you know everybody attendance is having a great time you're trying to basically tell a story across a big team people it's awesome it's a lot of fun and i could use ai all the time which makes my life very happy yeah yeah and you've got the marketing against the grain podcast with you and kieran which i almost feel like that podcast probably keeps you like finger on the pulse you gotta know what's going on in the world of ai and tech because you're jumping on a podcast this week to chat about it yeah i what's interesting right is i grew up in a household where both my parents were teachers and so i learned the most important lesson which is like teaching something is how you learn something right right and so that's basically what doing a podcast is is like it's a forcing function where like i gotta record two days a week which means i gotta know what i'm gonna talk about two different times a week which means i gotta constantly be reading using learning and then i record and explain which makes it like actually really set in and like make sure that i've actually grasped the concepts that i'm trying to figure out yeah a hundred i i mean i've experienced the same thing turning around and making videos about it is why i know as much about ai as i do is i don't wanna get stuff wrong so i really wanna dive deep and understand it that's my honest question if you didn't do videos how much less do you think you would know i think it's like for me like it at least know half is less yeah yeah you know i would i would be way short of where i am like making stuff in public is like a cheat code for learning totally i'm in the same exact boat if i wasn't making videos about it you know i'd probably still be nerd out about ai i'm still kind of like a tech guy but i would probably be blind to like half of what's going on right i'd probably only be touching the tools and using the stuff that really really benefits me and then anything where i'm like i don't see a benefit for my own purposes i probably wouldn't be paying attention to but because i make content i'm sort of watching the entire landscape that's how i feel to yeah yeah i'm curious when it comes to the actual cmo role how has it evolved with the emergence of ai are there things that you used to do as a cmo that you don't have to anymore how has that role changed well i think there's a lot that's changed more that's changed that stayed the same i mean i think a massive amount has change on like the personal productivity side for example right like we have this amazing prompt that we put in ant philanthropic that goes and gets all of our ass asana data and bake me a custom dashboard right so like i can get this amazing super dialed in summary of how we're doing at kinda anytime live in a really great format so like that's one example that's be pretty great one of the biggest things that have changed my life is we have this cloud project all about our target customers so everything we know about them what they like what they don't like interviews transcripts all of that and i can just go ask them what they think about things and what's interesting matt is like i've gone and done that and i've also gone and run like big surveys the results are almost always very similar and it's way cheaper way faster so it's just like i feel like i have the pulse of feedback i'm like are we doing something right are we doing something that's good much better now in the ai era than like in the pre ai era and then i just personally feel just like ten x more productive right like i just feel like i can get so much more done in terms of research packaging i love complexity comment i don't talk to you since it came out so i don't know very big comment person but like i have all these shortcuts made a complexity comment to just basically shortcut like just how i consume package and process information and that's like that's been a game changer for me do you have any other like little productivity hacks that you've learned with ai that have really sped up other areas i think my big productivity hacks are like make a custom gp or your cloud project that's a prompt engineer so that you can always generate really good prompts and so you just get way better first or second shot output of anything you're doing with the frontier models like that is for sure the second thing is ai taking over just like repetitive tasks like the fact that comment can take over my browser and fill out forms and do all of that and anything i know i have to do repeated i could just make a shortcut for and give it instructions and the context and then just bang it out and it'll have it go off and do it a tab while i'm doing something else and then the biggest thing is that comment can do things across tabs so i can like do multiple documents or things at once and that has proven to be like a game changer as well and just like the workflow of how i get stuff done i love it yeah i mean one thing i've just gotten into and this is very very recent for here is i just started using whisper flow where you pressed down a key on your keyboard and you just talking to your microphone and it's almost like the old dragon naturally speaking kind of thing right where you can just sort of like dictate and it will type for you but what whisper flow does is it actually listens to you and then cleans up what you just said so if you repeat yourself it cuts out the repeats if you say or or have pauses or any of that kind of stuff it cuts it all out it sort of listens understands the intention and then writes up the text in a sort of cleaned up format and so i've actually started using that when i'm like writing content sometimes i'll use it inside of chat gp and just sort of brain dump my thoughts and then have it respond to me i've gotten into like the whole vibe coding thing right when i'm using cloud code i'm and there just speaking what i want the app to do and it's interpreting it so that to me has been a a pretty big sort of change for me just in the last like week or so that i found really really beneficial i've been using willow voice which is a similar product i'm an investor in willow so i'm biased when to use that versus whisper but like the use case they and and the other tools out there solve to your point is freaking magic yeah first of all it's so much faster you save a ton of time and you can do it in whatever window you are in because they have access to like your system controls on your mac at least yeah i'm a mac user so chat slack gmail all of those things it has been a massive productivity changer for me i think voice ai in terms of like dictation is probably one of the most slept on categories of tools overall in terms of just like instant productivity game yeah totally agree now you've mentioned claude a few times yeah do you have like a preference between claude or chad gp do you use one over the other for different things what's your approach to using the different models so it's a good question i use complexity max a bunch when i'm using comment and then i'll i'll pick between the different models and everything in there depending on what i'm doing but when you talk about the core frontier models gemini claude and open a google i'm using v and now nano banana like their image and video stuff is is really good claude is the most like enterprise of all of the models so if you need to collaborate with other people like i think cloud projects are just so superior for collaboration i still think claude is just really great at like spinning up an artifact and visualizing something or or coding something really quickly so i use claude basically for those use cases and then chat at gp i tend to think it's better for search i like it's deep research a little bit better yeah and for some reason i just really like the canvas feature in chat gp like i'm writing sometimes i will even take a draft from clog put it in chat gp and then like edit with the ai within the canvas feature there's something about that kind of word processor but like highlight a part of it and right edit and get feedback or research with ai that i find very useful yeah yeah i i would agree with that i would say with claude i really think there's no better model for coding still even though g is out and the benchmark show it should be better at coding my own experience i'm still getting better results from claude when i'm coding so you know the the benchmarks to me mean less and less these days yeah and and i think artifacts even if you're not like a hardcore coat if you're just a lightweight code like me artifacts is just an elegant way to like bring that code to life right right real quick like you just heard the loop marketing playbook has just dropped and honestly it's a game changer growth isn't what it used to be ai has flipped the script and loop marketing is going to be your competitive advantage kip is giving you over a hundred prompts to start your own loop marketing journey so you can differentiate your brand voice evolve in real time and future proof your strategy get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in the description now let's get back to the show so i wanna ask you about the whole jobs question of ai right there's obviously a lot of fear about losing jobs and that's sort of some of the biggest pushback that the like general public has around ai right is that it's gonna take our jobs as a cmo of a you know a mega company like hubspot how are you approaching you know getting the team on board with ai so i think ai adoption there are some fear around it right it's like oh well am i gonna like automate myself out of a job right and look the best thing i have read probably in the last three years is the article by packing mccormick called super intelligence abundance and the whole thesis of that article which it seems like by your smile might have read is that like as we can do more humans just consume more like we have an endless ability to consume i'll give you like a very practical example ai video is getting really good yeah right you've used it it's getting really good however i can go and make the same brand creative ad that i might run on youtube for example for a few hundred dollars versus hundreds of thousands of dollars because i don't have to hire actors a director do a photo shoot and everything right does that mean that i don't need those people anymore know what it actually means is i actually now wanna go make three hundred three thousand different really hyper customized targeted brand ads for different markets for different segments of my business because people are gonna respond better to them i'll still spend the same amount of money if not maybe even more money because i'm getting better results but i'm gonna spend in a different way so i i think the challenge with this is there are gonna be some roles where you just need less humans in those roles but overall you're still gonna need just as many people as my apologies and all this because you're gonna want wanna do more and you're gonna get better results and those are and that's what we're seeing is like we're getting a lot better results and when we get better results you don't go into cost cutting mode we're don't say like hey i i wanna spend less doing this thing you're like no i wanna get as much of that value where that revenue as i possibly can right yeah i think that's what's happening i think some people are just gonna have to do some skill transformation and if you're just dead set in doing one very specific job i think the next few years will be hard like for example like translation we know has a bunch of product market fit with ai so like if you're somebody who's you used to be a translation person you probably need to move into more of like a native contact creation with ai role versus just manual translation for example right yeah that makes a lot of sense i almost see it as like every individual inside of an organization becomes much more scalable than they used to be right like every individual is going to be so much more capable of outputting and doing a lot more with the same amount of effort they're currently putting in right you know nobody's asking you to do a ton more work but you're able to get a lot more done with the sort of existing amount of effort that you're putting in exactly that and that's where we're at and i find the best individuals the best teams right now have the right balance of like i've really embraced ai but i also know that ai needs a lot of context support help and guidance for me as a a human and when those things come together we can create a new better business result than either one of us could individually right yeah yeah absolutely let's talk about marketing how have you seen like marketing costs shift with ai now in the picture obviously we're seeing like a a huge overhaul in the way people do marketing seo is becoming less of an an effective marketing strategy like where is like the marketing spent going where is the marketing spend sort of disappearing yep if you wanna have a nice cry go to like the marketing subreddit the seo subreddit there's like a bunch of you just go take a pull through the online communities in the marketing world it's kinda bleak times and there's good reason for that matt it's because ai has disrupted a lot of how traditional marketing worked because now answers are free everywhere thanks to and so companies used to get a lot of traffic to their websites by providing answers on their website google would index them people would come so you're having people search traffic kinda go down and so you're seeing a big drop and click the rates from google and traffic from google so that's a challenge that a lot of people are facing because people are living more in these ll they're also just like visiting your site less like if i can ask chat gp all my questions i don't have to go to your website and look through ten different pages of your website so you're getting less visits there so that's that's another challenge because people are getting less visits they're spending more money on ads brexit they wanna make up the difference like go i lost these vents over here i wanna get more visits well all these online ad models are auction models so like the more competition the more expensive they're gonna be so ad prices are going up right and then so then people are sending more email and so emails becoming flooded there's this like basically chain of effect that has happened because ai has changed how people work learn and interact online and what i'm here to tell everybody is i've been through the trough of despair on this over the last i would say a year and a half to two years and we've lost tons of visits tons of traffic all of i've seen all of it the beauty is with this change comes a lot of opportunity and we we can talk a little bit about what that opportunity looks like but that i actually think that there has never been a more exciting time to do marketing to be a business owner who cares about marketing who wants to grow their business through marketing because there's a bunch of new stuff that is on the horizon that creates a bunch of new opportunity right right there's almost like a new term that's popped up and i've heard it with different acronyms right i've heard like an ai oh and ai e o and ae basically optimizing for the artificial intelligence and the large language models instead of the search engines so that's gonna be a a really interesting field that i think is gonna pop up as people just in in my opinion seo in the past for lack of a better explanation was kind of like figuring out how to gain the search engines right you're trying to figure out how do i do the thing that the search engines wanna see to get my rankings to the top and i feel like we're starting to see the same sort of thing in ai now like what sort of things do i need to do to get the ai to reference me when those questions are asked whether that leads to more traffic or not that'll still be kind of to be determined like a few things i'm in the ae camp for what it's worth ai engine optimization a yep but and the metrics there look different because you're looking at like how many times are you mentioned for the kind of questions your buyers would look at and it's not just about visits it's definitely very different but right the foundations of traditional search optimization still matter like if you don't have public information on your website or on youtube or wherever the l can access it they don't know that you would be relevant for that person on that topic right so you still have to tell great public stories have a great website and matt one of the things i would tell you is that it's a lot more instant than it used to be like i remember like ten years ago i be like oh do this inbound marketing thing create a blog rights some articles and like in like six months google finally index you and you'll get ranking and you'll get a bunch of traffic and now it's like if you and i were to make a video on this like very trending ai topic today and publish it we would be cited and be getting views of that video almost instantaneously if it was like a big important topic right yeah yeah yeah hundred percent i've noticed that myself i've put out youtube videos and then a week later been asking complexity a question and it's referencing the video that i made a week ago stay same yeah yeah it's crazy i i do feel like a lot of the sort of philosophies behind seo will probably still apply to ae right so i've been doing digital marketing for sixteen years now this is has been like my full time gig and the thing i used to tell people when it comes to seo is quality content like just making stuff people want to read and want to share is the trick to seo right you know you get people to land on the page if they stay on the page for a long time and read your article that's a signal to google that they liked it well a lot of these engines right when you're using per complexity when you're using chat ep and claude and all these tools that have access to search the web they're actually still tapping the apis of you know google or bing or whatever the search engines are so the thing that got you to rank with seo is still gonna be the thing that probably gets you to mentioned in the artificial intelligence models as well well when you have a period of transformation of anything right whether it's ai technology whether it's marketing whether it's it's anything mh you're sometimes tempted to throw the old out and i think what you and i are saying is what people have been doing in like traditional search engine optimization for example it's still relevant there's just some new stuff you have to do on top of it you're not throwing it out but you have to build it upon it and i think that's what the exciting opportunity is you built these really good skills over the last five to ten years and now you just need to build some new skills to take them to the next level yeah yeah so i i wanna actually get into the marketing let's get into like the meat of it i know you guys have the loop marketing playbook which i believe is dropping the day this episode is dropping so you should be able to access it now as this episode goes live but one of the things you mentioned in the playbook is that taste beats tactics i'm curious if you could sort of explain what that means okay so i've been spending the last eighteen months trying to get out of the trough of despair and get into this new happy land and and then figuring out can i help all the other marketers can come with me to this new happier land and a bunch of us put our heads together came up with a new framework to do marketing we call it loop marketing and part of that framework is the last ten years of marketing were very mechanical matt like it was like oh can i tweak my luke copy on my facebook ad can i change my link mapping to get more search visits it's very tactical no ai helps you automate so much of the tactics that like tactics don't really differentiate you much more right taste actually differentiates you and tastes always feels like to i think most people this like thing of like yeah that person has good taste or that person has bad taste but all taste really is to me and i think it's true is somebody or some group of people who have looked at and consumed such a high volume of information on its specific topic that they know what's good and bad and can articulate why it's good and bad right and that is what your customers need now so if you're a company out there it's enough to just like put out boring stuff you have to say hey i know what my customers actually care about i know what they think is cool i know what channels they work and consume information in and because of that i'm gonna make sure i live and play and tell my stories in a way that's going to really like work for them and that i'm gonna get away from the knob and dial turning and more into helping my customers know like i deeply care about them and know what they think is cool and interesting yeah yeah that's really interesting because i remember several years ago when i was doing a lot of you know building funnels and landing pages and all of that kind of stuff you had the russell b of the world going out there and saying hey if you change your button from yellow to greed you're gonna boost your conversions by like three percent and you know everybody was trying to do these little like micro optimizations but now in a world of ai we can split test that stuff at scale and pretty much anybody can do that kind of thing like right of the gate exactly and what wild though is like for you right like i could go run a deep research project and know more about you than i could have ever known before right so then subsequently i can know that about a group of customers which means i can intimately know what they want and i can give that to them instead of guessing that they might like a color button difference because somewhere in they're subconscious they're like more inclined to to think that's a better option right right right right exactly and i mean you know full disclosure i'll admit it whenever i do a podcast episode i'm interviewing somebody i always run their name through deep research through complexity through chat gp and pull up as much as i can about that person and that at everybody's fingertips now right like even in the podcast podcasting content creation world the ability to get just tons of information on any topic any person anything you want is available to everybody but the difference is really that taste right like yeah figuring out or alright which of these topics do we drill in on which of these things do we think our specific demographic our specific audience is going to be interested in i was talking about right that information is more of a a sort of taste is sort of a learn skill by going through the motions but anybody has access to all of the information that we have access to now yeah one of the big things that you have to understand in this next wave of marketing is that there's information symmetry that everybody has access to everything it used to be that companies have more information than the people buying this stuff everybody kinda of has access to the same thing and there's new opportunities that come with that access to information like you're saying that sort of leads perfectly into my next question it's how do brands actually stand out when anybody can create like really pretty decent content with ai and now almost anybody can create little like software apps i wouldn't say like somebody can go and make a clone of hubspot right but somebody can go and create like a little software app that they can turn around and market and sell it just seems like it's so democrat now how does somebody stand out when anybody can do that stuff so yeah so there's a few ways that i think you can stand out to answer your question very directly even just use the web app example if anybody can vibe code and app and sell it that's great but if i have a brand and if i have a real business can i vibe code an app and give it away for free because i don't need to monetize it because i can use it to provide another layer of value to enrich my core product as service offering right and so like that's what we're talking about we're talking about using ai to do the next order level of tactics and how i kinda think about this is can you use ai to create really good campaign assets that are like really relevant to your audience and like i said can you use things like a cloud project or what have you to basically simulate a customer and get real time feedback from that simulation so that you've actually know it's good and it's gonna work mh the other thing that we don't talk enough about with ai is the biggest challenge in marketing has always been the guessing game oh i'm gonna try to segment my audience guess what they want and send my best guess to these different groups of people right like that's been marketing now i don't have to guess i can say i know specific things about each of these individual people and based on what i know ai will create a custom message for that person that is relevant to them that's our best guess not just for a group of people but for that one person right and it turns out in doing that like matt we've been doing that at house hubspot our conversion rates have gone up a hundred percent two hundred three hundred four hundred percent because it turns out it's a way better experience to have ai guessing just about me than just to like let me into this broad swath of humanity right yeah yeah no i mean i've seen it firsthand right like hubspot is one of my sponsors on my youtube channel i think we've been working together for almost two years now on the youtube channel and i have custom playbook with hubspot that are like matt wolf custom prompt playbook yep and so when i'm doing sponsors on my channel a lot of times i'm shouting out a playbook with my name my face on it that we know is going to be super sad gonna learn to that audience yeah because it's like oh they have a connection with you and so we've already like gotten on that same level of commonality with them and they're gonna be just from the jump more interested yeah yeah and i love what you said so there's a a marketer you're probably familiar frank ke right he's yes he's probably one of the most well known internet marketers right he had a concept called moving the free line right used to teach his concept of moving the free line where you know at one point the free thing you gave out was like a blog post and then you would sell them off the blog post and then it became like ebooks then people were giving away ebooks and that's what you were selling and the value of the thing you're giving away for free you wanna constantly keep on moving that up so that the free thing gets more and more and more valuable so that people see well if this is what you're giving away for free well then the paid thing must be really really pretty incredible right so like i feel like ai really really increases people's ability to move the free line right create a little software app and give that a away for free before selling them on the bigger product they're trying to sell yeah like look even if you're selling consultant services you can give away a lightweight app that just shows how your unique perspective and insights on the problem right like there's a lot of leverage that comes with just demonstrating value in a very clear easy way yeah absolutely so with this playbook you guys are putting out there's what i think you call the dynamic loop and it's got four steps express yep taylor amplify evolve i'm wondering if maybe we can kinda go through and break down each of those four steps real quick yeah of course so everything will be on loop marketing dot com so before i talk fast or if you get confused go check out loop marketing dot com but yeah so we call this loop marketing and it's basically a four stage playbook that matt i was out to solve this problem if you do marketing right now at a business your ceo comes to you and says hey i need you to to like ai marketing and make our marketing ai first and get my better results go and do that and everybody's like i don't know how the hell do i do that like what does that was does that actually look like and so i wanna give people a very easy set of things that they can go to so you kinda went through the four stages the first step is express and that is literally just like hey i got this idea and now thanks to ai i can get that idea out in the world really quickly at a really good quality because i can use nano banana v three hubspot you can use a bunch of different things to basically go from idea to assets or campaigns really quickly and that's really powerful and you can then subsequently run more campaigns and and learn faster the next thing we have is tailoring which is just what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago which is like how do you use ai to create personal message so it's like the difference between you know go into a department store and buying a suit in the men's section versus like going into a tailor and the taylor makes your suit like man taylor makes your suit that's fancy that fits in a whole different way and that's kinda what getting these very personalized messages is about and that might be in in the form of ads email sms whatsapp but those types of tailored messages perform much better you need to send less of them to get the same level or better level of engagements and that's like something anybody can go and do tomorrow we just rolled out an really awesome email ai personalization product today at inbound when the show's coming out so i think that's a way to do it for email but you can can do it across all those channels then the next step here all about amplification which is like how do you take that message and get it out to people get it out to the world and the biggest thing that's changed there as we talked about earlier is a and all of the crazy things that are happening with how people are searching and interacting but there's also influencers like you said like we work with you at hubspot you work with other brands and everything and there's never been a better more cost effective way to reach your target audience than partnering with content creators and influencers it's an incredible opportunity and ai actually just makes that identification like the workflow of creating the content partnering working so much easier now that it's actually available to all these businesses and then the last step we have is evolved which is basically it used to be matt you've done marketing you run a marketing campaign and then you do your campaign retro perspective if you remember those were like maybe a week two weeks three weeks later you'd look back and be like alright how'd this thing do well now you don't have to wait anymore because these ai tools make reporting and insights so easy you can kinda see how it's going in real time make adjustments in real time and even once it's done with the hubspot and cloud connector i can just like get information into my cloud i can have artifacts like build custom charts and everything for me based on the questions i have about this specific campaign and i can make decisions instantly around how i make the next one better so that's why i think of it as a loop because you kinda close off with like oh i'm learning these things then i'll start all over again but this time i've got like more insights and those insights kinda compound over time now my marketing is just gonna get better and better every week and every month because of that compounding right you mentioned the sort of email thing that you guys are coming out with i saw on a another podcast that you were on recently as part of my complexity research or that you guys recently increased your email engagement by upwards of four hundred percent is that using what you're talking about like what does that look like what is yeah yeah so it's basically we product ties what we were doing matt and the initial like beta of this was we created prompts we enriched the people we're mailing with data about hey this is their job this is their business these are the things that we think they would be interested in then we pass that data and a prompt through to open ai through the api to generate an email you know the prompt is based like this is the thing we wanna communicate to them this is the data this is what we want this email to look like an open will write that email just on a one to one basis push it back in a hubspot and we'll send it and so now we've just done that so you don't have to do the api all the crazy work that we had to do when we were first like validating the idea right so does it in some information from like the hubspot crm so you guys crm data to know to make that email way more personal gotcha so so everybody was getting a slightly different email than everybody else right and even a little bit more than slightly different like if you look at some of the examples like upped at one for like a coffee shop owner and it had like coffee puns throughout you know like it was like it very contextual where you would been like oh no like somebody wrote this email just to me it wasn't like personalization tokens it felt like oh somebody really put some thought and wrote this just to me but you were able to do that because you had good data and then the ai was able to take it from there and make it really compelling yeah yeah so what advice would you have for you know brand new creators brand new entrepreneurs that are just now sort of building something from scratch like how would you approach it if you're giving advice in somebody just starting to build something now because i do think there's a lot of people that are like well what's the point right because you know ai can do a lot of this stuff if i build a business it's hard to build the moat right so what advice would you give to somebody starting today well i'm gonna answer that the first thing though sam alt has a statement that i very much agree with it the more you use ai the dumb you realize it is that like he said that different flavors that's a para phrase of over the years and i wonder if you agree with me that the more you use ai you understand its limitations definitely right and i'm here to tell everybody there massive limitations still and some of those limitations are actually even just around like the software the data connections things that are outside of the core models that still just take a lot of time and effort to do it's not that we're not gonna get there but it's not like we're gonna get there tomorrow it's gonna take years to get there first of i don't think anyone should have the attitude of like oh my gosh i should just give up ai is gonna do all of this and i don't have a chance and so if you let's say you agree that that hey alright i wanna start this business because ai is not gonna eat my lunch then it's like what do i actually do and the thing you actually do is can you know your prospective customer base better than anybody else this kinda goes back to that topic of taste can you just understand their problems they're pain what they need more deeply than anybody else because i don't care how good a model gets they're never going to know the deep pain of the five thousand people you're out trying to help or whatever your market is right right and if you do that and then you just ob obsessed about building a product to solve that pain as well as marketing so it's like content storytelling around that pain traditional search engines but that now our ae optimization maybe you build a little lightweight web app on you know cloud artifacts or with cloud code that you're using to help demonstrate that you understand what they need like that's what i would do and i think you will find that you get deep deep traction quickly if you're just like very focused on the market you're serving and understanding their pain yeah yeah there's two things i wanna say about what you just said there one going back to like finding the limitations it's funny because i just saw a tweet this morning from a friend of mine named riley brown who's building an app called the vibe code app i believe and he posted a a tweet today saying that he's hiring he's looking for video editors he's looking for storyteller and writers and all of these people to help him with his content marketing strategy for his new app and like half the replies are people going well you're an ai guy why do you hire anybody why you just hire ai to do this stuff for you and it's like i mean there's the limitation right like i wouldn't trust ai to go edit my videos for me yet i wouldn't trust ai to go and actually do a lot of the actual shopping in the motion graphics there's still a lot of limitations in that area yet but i almost feel like from the general public the thirty thousand foot view of people that just kind of see ai as a concept actually they believe like ai i could just do anything for you why are you trying to hire for this but that was interesting i think it's super interesting to build on that the one thing i would say to all of those people is that humans are social creatures but i'm fascinated by two studies one is the harvard longitudinal study that showed of the people who lived the longest and had the happiest lives it was because they had the best social connections mh and then the next the most recently there's been a different study i've was just listening to the plain english podcast by derek thompson about this where people who have superior memories who are less likely to get alzheimer's dementia all of those things there's fin findings that the part of their brain that is developed by intense frequency of social action which is far more developed than everybody else just had way more social interaction and so if you're going to build a great business and you're going to sell a product or a service and you think you can do it without that social connection without the humanity without the need for those people to tell the story be the face of those stories then i don't think you understand people that well right right that's totally true i mean i feel like when you're building a business it it would be really tough to just do it on your own right even with my old youtube video i have a producer who i bounce ideas off with i've got three different editors who helped me edit my videos you know we've got darren here in the background who's helping us make sure this podcast comes out really good right like i feel like i would probably fail if i wasn't working with other people i need that help i want the ideas to bounce i want that interact and i think that is so powerful to grow business and i don't really feel like i get the same feeling with ai no definitely not yet that only think it's close yeah the other point i wanted to make about we were just saying too is when it comes to like the advice of somebody just getting started the the advice that i find myself giving is that i don't really feel like there's a better time in history to rapidly sort of iterate and testing yeah right you could come up with an mvp of a any software you want run some facebook or google ads to it and find out pretty damn quickly if it's it's gonna work or not and if it doesn't turn around and try something else right this is the best time in history to make an mvp quickly test it and then when you find that thing the thing that okay this is clicking with people this is getting people opting in for my free tool or whatever okay now maybe you've found your niche let's go in a little bit deeper on that build it into something bigger turn it into a business but i feel like this is the best time in history to like test stuff at scale couldn't agree more i'd even make the argument that if you are a curious person who likes to learn and you're willing to like apply and take action on what you learn that it's almost impossible to not be financially successful now like if you just do something every day and learn it about it every day within like a year or two you will probably have more money than you need yeah absolutely absolutely there's one sort of last quick rabbit while i wanna go down with you before we wrap up here and it's just following my own curiosity again are there any ai tools or software platforms or or things that just have you really excited that you've just been really impressed by lately you know what i think what eric and the folks over jin spark do is very remarkable i don't heard gen spark i've heard that term phone around but i actually haven't tried it yeah so gen spark what they're doing that is pretty remarkable they're just building these very focused use cases i discovered them because they have a really good slide builder that like you can do a slide outline and it'll create great presentations with it they just rolled out this ai designer that's kind of like a true like ai first version of can that can like make t shirts soar posters or kinda whatever you wanna do but they have all these vertical ai apps i think there's like twelve of them now and they're just really good and like they've built a good user experience they're still really early but like that is the one to me that i go back and use that nobody really talks a lot about that i think are doing like like a real nice job gotcha yeah yeah i've been hearing about gen spark i feel like for a little while now and i i remember going to the website and playing with it like i don't know maybe a year ago or something but i'm i'm assuming it's probably evolved quite a bit since then so i think it's about time for reading try the designer and and some of the new the designer and the slide thing like if you just have gp five make you a slide outline and then have it go build it in jens as long as you have like a creative style guide to tell help the colors and the fonts and all that comes up it does a really nice job yeah yeah absolutely i'll off to go check that out and then so to sort of wrap this thing up let's wrap it up with the loop marketing playbook i mean maybe give us the quick elevator pitch of why somebody would want it and then how do go get it okay so you're gonna wanna go to loop marketing dot com to get this playbook i think it'll be link down in the description below here but you're gonna want it because you're frustrated with your marketing results like if you're anybody you're not happy with where your marketing results are going and what i'm trying to do is give everybody a playbook of how to do and think about marketing in this post era and it'll give you something easy to communicate with your coworkers your boss everything about this is what we should be doing here are the prompts here the apps here the tactics we didn't even scratch the surface of what is available out there it's a very robust playbook go check it out and that's what i recommend doing next yeah i can attest as well i mean i've seen the playbook it's like tactics and steps and there's things that you can do and there's sometimes sometimes there prompts right that you should just go and use that prompt to go take advantage of but it's trying to d oh what do i do with this ai stuff it's like go to these specific things and this is how you do these specific things and they're not they won't be all the stuff you do but man is it a great place to start and is a great way to shift how you're doing your marketing in this post ai world very cool so loop marketing again i've seen it it's in dev it's here super awesome well awesome kip thank you so much for hanging out and i mean nerd out about this stuff with me it's always a blast thank you for having me it's been a blast it's an honor thank you so much if you remember just one thing from this episode it's that in an ai world where ai automate the tactics what truly sets you apart is taste your ability to deeply understand your audience and discover what actually resonates so here's your action item take one piece of your current marketing maybe an email a landing page or even a social post and run it through an ai tool to tailor it for a specific audience segment see how personalization changes the response and don't forget you can grab hubspot brand new loop marketing playbook right now at the link in the description also if you enjoyed this conversation make sure to like and subscribe on youtube follow us on spotify and share this episode with someone who wants to help build the future of marketing we've got more on the next wave in just a minute but first i wanna tell you about hubspot for startups state of ai in start up go to market report there are some really eye opening findings here get this vcs are now making ai adoption a funding requirement nearly half of venture backed startups dedicate over twenty five percent of their go to market stack to ai tools and it's paying off big time seventy two percent see improved sell rates thirty seven percent have lower customer acquisition costs and some startups ups are scaling to sixty million dollars in arr with just thirty employees so whether it's customer service sales or marketing ai is driving measurable roi in hours not months so don't get left behind download hubspot free state of ai and start up go to market report now seriously stop what you're doing right now look at your podcast player and click the link in this episodes show notes see how ai powered startups are growing faster while staying lean

welcome back to the next wave podcast where we dive into the ideas shaping the future of technology today's guest is someone who's been at the forefront of ai for over fifteen years he c founded deep mind he built inflection ai and now he's leading microsoft's massive c pilot shift today we're talking to sole in this conversation you'll hear why the so called ai training wall is a myth how hall hallucinations might actually be a feature that we want and why the next software mode isn't head count or credentials we also explore the agent era of ai systems that don't just chat but plan click and get things done for you and wait until you hear the wild story about pilot vision predicting the future of a flight that must gustavo was supposed to be on by the end of this episode you'll walk away with a practical playbook you'll know what you can hand off to an ai agent this week as well as how to think about mo in a world where anyone can ship software in minutes so if you're living an ai or building right now this one's for you let's go chat with alpha sole so i'm gonna go ahead and start with your story a little bit i know you've been in ai now for over fifteen years with you know deep mind and inflection in now microsoft i'm curious what was it about microsoft that drew you to them you know it it is quite incredible to think that microsoft is fifty years old yeah like significantly older than me and you know for most of that time has been one of the leading tech companies in the world mh and also adapted to every new tech revolution so each new wave requires the company to pretty much change its culture sometimes change business models learn new programming languages learn new go to market motions and stuff like that so i think i was always inspired by the adaptability of it mh and that's kind of what we have to do now we have to adaptability to this c copilot agent ai companion era mh which is just a totally different mindset to what the company used to yeah absolutely have your beliefs or you know views on ai changed over the last fifteen years since the beginning of deep mind today yeah i think when i originally got involved in ai back in two thousand and ten mh we were very very obsessed with the ag framing artificial general intelligence right and i can still see that happening but i think i've always been a bit more focused on what happens day to day practically with real users you know real consumers of technology right and how that makes people feel you know rather than like the super intelligence that solves all the grand scientific problems i still think that's super cool mh but i can also see it really living life alongside us being an integral part of my day to day workflow as significant as your smartphone or your tablet or having access to the internet right right so i'm curious about the whole like narrative around ai training there was a a narrative not too long ago that the ai training was gonna like hit this wall and that we would sort of run out of things to train on and then we saw the test time compute and now they're sort of moving that in for the amount of compute going to that other end of it do you think there is a wall and do you think the answer to this stuff is just throwing more compute at at all yeah it's interesting because the other side of that equation was people also saying that there wasn't gonna be enough training data remember just before everyone's was like well pre training is done and you know we're gonna hit this wall and i think the the lesson is that whatever obstacle you know comes up over a six to twelve month period mh there are gonna be five different you know ways that people are trying to make the models more efficient use compute in a different way generate data synthetic which is what we're all doing now like we're producing human quality data yeah completely generated by one of these models for reinforcement learning from ai feedback instead of from human feedback so and if you look at like how big the models have got yes they've got super huge but they've also got tiny right you know you can now train a gb three capable model at one hundred times smaller terms of the inference cost you know the cost that it takes you to produce an answer at test time than it was when it was originally trained it was only three years ago so it's getting cheaper easier smaller and it's also getting bigger more powerful using more data and more compute mh and that's what you expect when you know everything is working it's like having like struck an oil well and now every everywhere you look it's just like okay we have another amazing capability that's right coming out so do you think that like throwing more compute at it and just kind of the bigger data centers the more gpus we put at it that's sort of how we get to the next level or is the next level gonna come from something entirely different yeah i think that trend is definitely gonna continue there's gonna be larger models more compute and we will definitely you know continue to get massive gains out of that mh but there's also like an emerging craft now which is in giving feedback to the models from other models right so you get larger and more capable models to really efficiently teach smaller models with very high quality data to perform a specific task really well right and i think that that trend is is also gonna continue and that's where you get is kind of efficient frontier like it's very expensive to build the biggest and best model first mh and then it's like ten x cheaper to build what was frontier twelve months ago today you know kind of amazing right so then you have this entire like swarm of you know second you know phase or second wave right model development capabilities which are coming very cool so like stacking reinforcement learning on top of what we're doing is kind of what's providing this sort of next era of ai yeah simultaneously with just training larger models right getting higher quality data feedback from other ai you know the kind of rl paradigm we'll still use you know feedback from humans as well so you know i think the lesson is that you know all of the capabilities end up cumulative being valuable mh and you sort of chip away at the problem by both exploiting what you know to be rewarding and exploring new techniques and new methods that then get piled onto the staff right right everyone everywhere is talking about ai agents right now but here's the thing most companies are going about it all wrong hubspot has gathered insights from top industry leaders were implementing ai agents the right way you'll discover which agent setups actually deliver roi and how businesses are automating their marketing sales and operations without replacing their teams get it right now by scanning the code or clicking the link in the description now let's get back to the show so i wanna talk about hallucinations for a second so hallucinations i guess can kinda be considered both a feature and a bug depending on how you're using ai right so you know if you need something factual you kinda wanna eliminate hallucinations but if you want something creative or you wanna sort of solve new problems that nobody solved before hallucinations are something you want how do we get to a place or do you see a pathway to getting to a place where we can trust what's coming out of these models one of the things i find really interesting in technology is that sometimes a new trend gets a brand name or a label and then it confuses everybody about what's happened you know in some ways it causes like the entire field to hall about what they're actually seeing it's a really weird word hall because if you think about the weaknesses of relational databases that have basically built pretty much all the value of software for forty or fifty years mh its big weakness is that it can't adapt it can't change it doesn't have any fuzz you only get out precisely what you put in whereas you know this now kinda solves a bit of that problem because it has this like fuzzy adaptive you know sort of abstraction that it can transfer knowledge from one domain to another right that it can inter you know you have two knowledge points and it can join those knowledge points by finding the gap in the middle which is what you see when it's generating a new image that's in the style of something for example so hallucinations is just an unfortunate word and i don't really see that as a long term problem i mean if you look at like three years ago the models were really difficult to steer right stylist factual they couldn't draw on you know citations or reference documents that are more reliable and now like two or three years later with more compute they're extremely controllable right they're very adhering to the behavior policies that we set for them right they're very responsive to the stylist training so they don't actually produce a huge amount of buyers they still get some things wrong but it's very very different and so i i do think that that is one of the most promising signs of the moment we're in is that they're getting easier to control and steer as they get bigger right which i think was counter to a lot of people because a lot of people two three years ago like oh these are always gonna be misinformation machines right they're gonna be super chaotic they're gonna get it all wrong etcetera etcetera and that's turning out not to be true yeah and i feel like more and more now they're sort of grounding themselves with citations right so if they're giving you factual information you could see the citation and actually go and look at the source and sort of double check things if you need to right exactly and that's the definition of trust right if if it knows when it doesn't know or you know when you go and like verify a claim that it makes you feel confident that's a a sensible source you'll start to trust it more and more and i think that's you know also very very encouraging because the more people that use it the better it'll get and then you know again more people will use it because it's better quality right right now i know you mentioned ag is not really the the area that you you tend to focus on but i'm curious do you have a definition for ag because i feel like that term the definition is still fuzzy and i feel like everybody who responds you might have a little different definition so i'm curious what you're definite i mean that's another challenge right like flu hallucinations or i mean words are difficult when you're sort of trying to predict the future like we don't actually have good definitions so you know people talk about super intelligence or general intelligence you know i i like the method that we or the the definition that we use the deep mind which is the ability to perform well across a wide range of environments mh so the emphasis was on general and you know high quality performance mh where the threshold is you know maybe it's human level performance in some tasks maybe it's all tasks maybe it's exceeding human level performance you know i think we'll have to just wait and see that the definition that i proposed in my book was artificial capable intelligence because what we all really care about is not some abstract idea of what intelligence is which is really hard to define right it's storm as hard as consciousness it's really unclear or soul or spirit like they're very un that hard to define but you can define capabilities mh you know like how much power does it draw how many tokens does it produce per second does it solve this specific challenge can it retrieve over documents in the web right you know can it take actions in your browser like can it understand your scene and identify objects when you use copilot vision to interact with the environment they're very measurable and specific capabilities so my mindset is always like this you know month this quarter like what are the specific things that it can do and you know that i think is a kind of practical way of handling that question very cool so i know you're familiar with yan le cocoon right he yeah close he mentioned that he doesn't believe that ll are going to get us to ag he thinks it's gonna be some other type of ai model do you see any other types of ai models after l do what do you think is next to beyond large language models i don't i think that we already have the kernel of very powerful systems because tool use is a meta capability right you know that that's kind of what has made us unique as a species we're able to like pick things up move them around and then use that to manipulate our environment to augment our intelligence right it makes us more smart and capable that we can make fire or that we can use a stone acts or that we can you know create a gpu right invent electricity so we now have this system that obviously is nowhere near human level smart but it can use tools mh and we have a lot of very powerful software tools around right right and a lot of those are not yet hooked up so i think they even if you sort of stopped model development for a couple years you know ego core foundation model development somehow magically but just theoretically then we've already got this kind of technological overhang where the models have this amazing ability to use tools talk to other ai source factual knowledge mh orchestrate things in sequence right and so yeah i don't see it slowing down anytime soon gotcha i wanna just touch on as really quickly was listening to an interview with neville ra con and he said that he believes as artificial super intelligence is a fantasy we'll never actually see it i'm just curious what your take is i don't know i'm i'm kinda one of these people whenever i hear never or fantasy to see i was just like okay well you know it's a bit like the young thing like maybe saying that these models will never scale to an ag gi i just think it's really hard to say for sure either way and i i think that our intuitions are changing every sort of year as we see these like massive wave of new advances coming out mh so you know i definitely think that there are certain capabilities you know with respect to as that we need to be a little bit more careful of right for example naturally if you just give one of these systems full autonomy with no human in the loop or on the loop or in any sense overseeing you know it's pretty powerful system right so i think we should think about these things in terms of like what are the specific capabilities we wanna accelerate and engineer into the models what are the ones where we're not sure you know and and potentially could have very very powerful consequences if we misha them and really think about it from that perspective right right i also think it's one of those areas where we might see those goal posts continually move and no really knows how to define it so it's hard to to go there honestly but what i wanna talk about next is sort of some of the concerns that pop up you know a lot of the things that i see like in the youtube comments and things like that when i make videos about ai and you know one of the things that i see probably most often is ai is gonna take all of our jobs right yeah ai is learning to code ai is doing art ai can be your graphic designer should people be worried about ai taking their job i do think the nature of work is gonna change fundamentally the thing is no question about that you know just as fifty years ago there was no pc and everything was done on paper and we still relied on snail mail you know i mean we're going through a big shift right it just gonna affect how we work what we do where we live you know that is a profound shift and i think your day to day job has changed just as your job as a you know youtuber and a media star now didn't really exist five years ago right right well maybe ten years ago didn't really exist i think we've gotta get ready for that transformation gotcha so i wanna ask really quickly about software companies i'd like maybe some advice from you on software companies because there is this whole narrative that software companies don't have a moat because everybody can just sort of prompt to software into existence or maybe one of the big incumbent tech companies might just build it it is a feature what advice would you have to somebody trying to build a company right now good question i mean it depends on the size of your company but for smaller companies i think this is like an electric time it's pretty unbelievable i mean i i was just playing with this new version of github copilot now that that has this unbelievable prompting ability weight in natural language you just give an instruction or you just say what you want and what kind of app or what kind of game what kind of program you want and then obviously it produces the code you can then read all the code and then ask for specific chunks of it to change so in the process you're actually learning about how code is written right where the bugs are you know it's very very kind of insight four and that iterative back and forth is a great way to prototype and actually build production grade code and like ship the website for example mh so the the barrier to entry has never been lower which means experimentation by everybody is about to completely explode what that means is that it's gonna be a very competitive time for the big companies medium companies small companies everybody which i think is an amazing thing for the consumer mh because we're gonna get a lot of magical products and experiences but i think it is gonna be a very competitive and explosive you know hard time to pre succeed in because it's gonna be difficult to create those long term moat because things are gonna change so so quickly but i think what we've seen over and over with these things is that people figure out ways of creating tremendous value and that value always gets paid out you know and people make you know big returns and have have have great outcomes so i think it's a really positive story yeah i totally agree so last question i'm gonna make it sort of a two part what excites you most about what you can do with ai today and what excites you most about what we'll be able to do with ai in the coming years you know one of the things i really enjoy doing is just having a conversation with copilot on voice on a commute on the way home like at the end of the day just chatting through a problem asking a question rabbit hauling around something i love basically learning i love interactive dialogue because that's kind of the way i learn i mean love reading as well but in some ways my books and my ideas just come alive because i'm able to kind of you know run down any corner of a topic with copilot so i do love that experience i've also been using the c copilot vision experience a lot i mean it sees everything that you see in real time you can talk to it you know about exactly what you're both seeing and that is quite a magical experience i was in lax the other day and i opened c copilot vision and it knew which i was in it looked at the gate number it was like oh it looks like you're heading to seattle because it's four thirty on a sunday so there's only one flight right now by the way did you know that your flight is delayed oh and i was like it's not delayed code copilot you've obviously got it wrong illumination so now i went to the front desk and i was like is the flight delayed and they were like oh yeah just about to make an announcement about it so whitney like how did you know yeah yeah it's like that's a magical experience is is crazy it's incredible so but the things i'm really excited about coming up other actions c copilot actions is mind blowing i mean it will really just operate on your desktop in windows highlighting areas where your stock pointing at things helping you with settings or in your browser like we'll buy things book things plan ahead it's quite magical to see copilot moving the mouse around clicking on things opening new tabs entering stuff forms you're just like we're we're living in the future yeah yeah yeah amazing sounds like problem solving in windows is gonna get automated pretty quickly here exactly yeah amazing well thank you so much for spending the time with me this has been a fascinating interview i really really appreciate you spending the time pleasure man thanks a lot pretty fun cheers awesome if you remember one thing from today it's that agents that do beat apps that wait that's the shift so here's your challenge this week pick one repetitive task it could be booking a meeting filling out a form summarizing notes or cross checking data and hand it off to an ai agent then let us know in the comments how it went all the links and resources are in the description and if this episode helped you make sure to subscribe and share with a builder who needs this playbook thanks so much for tuning in and hopefully we'll see you in the next twenty

what if building an ai agent were as simple as texting a friend this week on the next wave i sit down with flo cr founder and ceo of lin the ai agent company everyone in silicon valley is watching after a year in the lab lin is unveiling will lin three point o and flow is ready to show us why it could change how we work we demo agents that run your crm qa your product book grocery block spam and scout competitors all through natural language you'll want an agent take over a browser click and scroll like a human and fish task in minutes imagine if every employee at your company had an army of ai interns that's actually possible today before we get started now we spend a lot of time working on these episodes and getting on the best guess possible to help make sure that you're prepared for the age of ai but most of you who listen aren't subscribed so if you can please take a moment subscribe you would me a lot to me and the team now let's dive in with flow cutting yourselves like will half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing page go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow hey flo thanks for coming all hey nathan thanks for javier me i was thinking about it earlier i was like i you're like the third returning guests that's ever been back on the next wave you other ones are like greg is and logan hill patrick at google so you're in great company okay i am in a really good company yeah it's an else to be here yes so yesterday you showed me two demos of of new things that you're building at lin which i would just blown away by and i'm like okay this is perfect for our audience and everyone's to get a ton of value out of both of these if you're calling them features or the new products but maybe you can just kinda explain and then we can just jump right in yeah it's a revamp of the app freely if we've been working on these for like six or nine months at this point like the entire team we call it like ling three point o so it's basically an entire rewrite of the app the long term vision of what we want to do is build an ai employee and we are driving towards maximal capability and maximal ease of use ease of use is like we won't need to be as easy as like you just talk to it and you tell it what you want and just does it for you right and the capability is like it should be able to do anything that anyone can do on the computer yeah today like in order to build agents like you either have to code or like even like no good tools like lin it's all of a pain in the ass it's a no good tool but you have like drag and drop but like you need to have like a technical mindset and the capabilities is like we've always been bottleneck by integrations like we made like a big announcement like six months ago we released like six thousand integrations at once and we were like that's it like we will never need integrations again and in turns that we are always blocked by integrations and that's why ant topic is doing mc right it's like a like we're gonna build just like uni universal protocol but it's never gonna be enough and so what we're releasing with three point o is we are releasing an agent builder so you can just talk to it it's just a prompt and you have a back and forth conversation and just builds the agent for you it's actually really good because the agent builder is built with in the call so it's like we don't even have an admin tool to build the agent builder we just use india ourselves and that's the yeah and is then we have computer use so the agenda builder takes scale of the usability ease of use part of the house and computer use takes scale of the capability side of the house so it's like the final integration basically like you can just see your computer and use it right and it works it's checking it works like better then result that's crazy so you just talk to lin like if i want agent for whatever check my email or check website or whatever i want to do you just talk to it and it creates the first version or something then you probably can go in there and tweak it i would assume and things like that yeah no one hundred percent that's what it is it's like i have created an agent to manage my bill sold crm and literally just like help me manage my postal crm it's like okay i'm gonna create an agent this is what it does if you wanna add to your crm if you wanna retrieve from your crm and let me just create the agents for you and that's what it created like feel shot wow right yeah and this is why i wanna show video i wanna be real with people like yeah people who have like experience with like lovable or these like vibe coating applications they know that like this actually takes like one or two minutes so it like it makes for like a pretty boring demo because like water's is gonna it for like a minute looking at it right but it creates this agent and then i can be like okay who are ai for i know and like i like this like fake crm like a bunch of like fake names but it's like hey these are the people you know oh i can go like hey add a john to my crm he's the founder of ag cool and it as a role to my google sheets so right now it's mainly with google sheets so like in theory could you guys add you know connections to hubspot or or other serums in the future or how does that or we do have connections to hubspot it's actually like the most used crm on the platform oh great hair no one hundred percent so you you can just use any connection you want that's why like the six thousand connectors that we built also solving to be useful for and when you guys launching this on monday hopefully i think by the time these ai you should be live yeah awesome have you guys had people testing like other people yeah outside of lin and and like we're the main use cases that people are using it for oh yeah we've been in private beta for like weeks at this point like maybe even months is the main use cases oh i think like crm management are really really big one like go to market applications or like a really big one so it's like as the workflows account executive workflows like marketing and like content production workflow like i can give you an example this is the new design of the app i love with it i think it looks gorgeous but i can give you a super simple example like find me ten software engineers working at z and right here it's like i found tens software engineers i just like a previous task but like i did the same like boom these all the names and i can just click and these are like actual people who work at zapier oh that's amazing so like could i go the next step to help you contact those people or gonna not do that it will be able to do that mh right now it cannot connect to your personal small accounts just yet like this is like an an authenticated action like the prospecting action but like the gmail action is going to be authenticated and we're going to release that in a couple of weeks awesome yeah so the computer use could it just like go user your computer eventually and use linkedin and like and how was linkedin if we're gonna deal stuff like that it seems like some point that's gonna be be crazy is that is there's a really big use case so i can go like reach out to i can go flo cri yeah who works at lin on linkedin and it is going to reach out actually think for this one we also have an action and not handed wasn't sure oh it's going to use computer use let's see right here so it has found the linkedin and now it is starting a computer and so again like this is an example of of computer use like while it's booting i can like show this other demo it's getting very meta up because now we're using lin as a qa engineer full lin right so we have created this agent that like you can see it's super simple it's like okay every i will you start a computer you log in into lin we've given the credentials you create an agent you test the agent and then if it fails you send a message to the call channel on slack and right here like this is all completely automated like this is the agent that logs in and does the credential creates an agent and end to end like creates an agent ham scratch it's like a pretty simple agent at first it's like yeah an agent that like sends and receives messages it tested like hello can you hear me so this is an agent tuck an agent and it works wow that's amazing i would be remiss if i didn't mention i feel like at this point it's a tradition every time anyone talks about computer use agents like they talk about grocery and like flight booking you know is of this the i do have an agent that does that for me yeah so you can see you know every week it wakes up it puts maybe this is t like this is my grocery list on door ash i use pretty tame stuff the cucumber brussels pads all of that stuff and then you see it just goes on door ash and it searching for everything so it's like looking for brussels sprouts adding them to the cart like same for steaks salmon and all of that stuff and then in the end it just all and i received the groceries like this is how you do my groceries and can you set look a timer where or it does it automatically and you don't have to do anything or do need to kinda like approve it every time or like what's the steps there is that is how it just set up right now i'd like to be switched to the flow details so yeah every friday at five pm second can end a week thing i've actually changed it so now it sends me an email to me and my girlfriend and so like hey this is the grocery list do you guys wanna add or remove anything and then it weights like ten hour basically in the morning after if we don't reply just assumes that like the grocery list is good and then it does the grocery for us and when it's done it sends another email to say did it that is crazy i mean i'm gonna set this something like this up yeah another one this one is like so simple and it was also created with agent builder i'd actually show you twitter computer use this was like one of the very first things i tried with agent builder people asking me like how did you create this decision agent i'm like with agent builder it's literally just you talk to it and literally it's like i have a bunch of spam mills and dimensions on twitter i will you to create an agent that wakes up every three hour wheels and block them that's it and you can see here wakes up i changed it to every twelve hour wheels because i'm not spam that much like twelve by wheels is good and then goes to my mentions finds like this guy i met a blogger who really is awesome and that is like really his stock information day he is very good and deserves attention rainbow emoji is like boom blocked and so i i know don't longer have spam on twitter it's just like i don't that's great like blog it's amazing i i have this account on twitter i have the name learn on twitter and i'm not really using right now but occasionally i check it and like it gets tagged by i don't know hundreds of people a day who were like just talking about random stuff and then tag at learn for some reason right i would love to use this and just block all of them i mean now it's a tool that you can just prompt to just ask you to do it and do it for you how does it turn who was a scammer like would it possibly like block people they shouldn't who were like just like leaving a comment underneath then he was just kinda like a generic comment like lf g or something like that or you know so it it happened once yeah i prompted it to like the ai grief refills you know like old wall it's completely over open i release the thing like nothing will be the same again yeah and it started blocking them and i'm like hey don't block mentions of ai grief sales hey i i put out one of those like every month or two so i mean hopefully then hey you're not gotta feed the algorithm occasionally you know yeah they looks spam me eb homeless so look i've just i've just prompted it and like hey like those are examples of of spam oils yeah cool so you're thinking you know i've had elon musk like responded to some of my tweets before like a crying emoji or so something like maybe the ai would be like yeah that's definitely a spam fucking block i no you don't wanna you don't want to plug that i mean like i i've been pleasantly surprised because i received a lot of like cryo emojis like i live g and all of that stuff and i was like you it great think it's a spam and i've been like keeping an eye on it and no i mean like so far so good it's awesome the new version of lin you know lin three point out like what's the main way you're using it besides shopping like are you guys using it internally already a lot or like you know we all using it quite a we're using it a lot while the qa stuff is awesome like it's basically replaced the qa engineer for us like this is a kind of thing we would have paid a hundred and eighty thousand dollars a year before you know and now it's just an agent prospecting is another awesome one we have built an agent that goes on the linkedin and finds the post sells another push that are like i have built this awesome agent like comment agent to get it in your dms and all of that stuff and so we we could it like comment forming like when people do that we can see who's commenting agent right and so we can reach out to them by dms as well and we can be like hey you know like reach out to the person and we actually reach out to them in in a personalized fashion so like indie goes on linkedin and clicks and like looks at the profile and then sends them a message just like hey like we saw you go agent you wanna learn more the different agents that we could deploy for you are you doing tactics like that to you know like see who's following your competitors and and and things like that and interacting with them somehow well we do have an agent for sales snoop absolutely and and that's the kind of thing i think that's like the beauty of ai agents i think people under underestimate the you extent to reach like oh my gonna be able to save money because i can replace stuff that humans used to do but actually what you can do is that you can ask these agents to go much deeper than humans did so for example the competitor and that is this agent right it is kind of shocking how open salespeople people are sometimes about n on linkedin because i guess the numbers are like the resumes right but like they can say bragging them yeah i have closed like four million dollars of revenue in one year i have closed like ac three hundred thousand dollars average contract value and whatnot and i'm like this interesting thing and i couldn't ask a human on my team i would never ask a human on my team to like every month go and open the linkedin team profiles of every single of every single one with michael details and see what they posted and all of that stuff i can ask yeah the person he would ask to do that it would probably be like a lower level employee who would do something like that and they maybe they'd make more mistakes and and whatnot if you do to have someone do that yeah that's right so with the ai agents feel no shame i can ask you to do this thing and it's like an analysis that would have taken a human i goes so deep like this this would that have taken a human like two or three full days like i'm never gonna spend two or three full days doing competitor analysis as a startup right i can do it with the agents okay let's be honest your ai prompts aren't giving you the results you deserve but with a little coaching you can transform from basic prompts to engineering conversations that get you exactly what you want from chad gb that's what this playbook delivers not just random prompts but a step by step system with the exact techniques top ai professionals use every day you'll have your own personalized prompt engineering system that delivers consistent results get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show so content production we are in the process of rolling out an agent this one is really good it's a so agents can work together so there is one agent that's like a content strategist and there is one agent that's a content producer so the content strategist comes up with a bunch of ideas of videos okay and then it forms them out to a bunch of content producers the content producer produces the content on v three and then post it on instagram and tiktok and youtube and then after it posted it a week later it wakes back up it looks at the videos it posted it and it's like okay how did they do both in terms of views and in terms of comments like what did people like and it reports the findings back to the content strategist which then uses these learnings to plan the next batch of content that's amazing i'm sorry but like we've been working on this for like two and a half years like to me like the fact that i can describe this workflow with this trade phase just blows my mind like it's just it's insane and it's crazy like all this kind of stuff to like i know how amazing it is but have to like try to like you almost like have like a beginner mindset to like remember like how amazing all this is you know you told me like three years ago it's like what the hell are you talking about there's no you know it's crazy especially like five years ago to i would i have no idea that something like this was gonna be possible but now i like every time i a new guest on they they tell me something that's insane and i'm just like i kinda get used to it and a lot of people you talk to they seem to get completely used it like oh yeah course they can do that i agree we we feel this quite a bit in the office like we were at the office last night at like ten pm and we were like white pudding like the plan basically this like okay we're gonna do this we're gonna ship that then like you're gonna work on that lend four and then twelve months from now we're gonna have like basically something that approaches ag api right like approaches an ai employee you can just talk to it and it does it and i'm like guys it's like how insane is that like we just done it's the plan like it's not like a sci f five book it's like no it's the road roadmap right right i mean since the last time we talked this already seems like half the way there compared what you showed me last time you've already made the fact that you can literally just talk to the ai and it helps you kinda create the agent mari you have to manually set everything up or use a template whatever that's that's a huge step forward yes yes i mean and this is us right like this is the application then there is the model layer like imagine what's happening right now inside the labs like i find it kinda strange that the labs basically right now are doing apps like they all saying we've got to like super is coming guys like we we're in the take off right now we've basically got ag gi and now all like on our way to as it's weird yeah and mostly of were just like yeah yeah no biggie you know yeah and which is why like i'm mean these group chats and there was this conversation is the other day i'm like in all of these ai group chats and there was this one with like a bunch of fun thumbnails and they will be mu the frenzy around ai these days they're like i'm so tired out of it and i totally get it is like i'm so tired out of it there's so much like grand just like so much tourism so many people just like promising the moon and all of that stuff and i'm like look those one gonna be sales but i believe that ai is actually under hyped and i'm saying that knowing food well how hyped is and like guys like brace yourselves because if you're tired the it like this is only the beginning like it's gonna get wow that there i agree i i actually have a presentation now that starts with ai is under hack it massively that yeah me it's kind of like you you're like an early two thousands you know and there was like the dot com bubble and you're like i'm so tired of the of the internet the internet like everyone's like who's gonna use the internet can't wait for it to be over all the house still sucking about time it can't wait for you to blow i'm like yeah i knew it was a scam look they crashed crashed it's the internet's done it was all bs exactly exactly the entire wheelchair just didn't yeah and people can't realize it you know ai has in my opinion has the potential to be way more impactful than the internet i mean you're talking an intelligent about powering robots you're talking it's so much bigger than the internet i think the average person right now a lot of them would be comparing this to like crypto or something like they think it's just like okay a you know it's another new thing and it's like they're not getting the paradigm check chip that's happening right now for all of humanity i think some people compare it to the internet some people compare it to like deal to automobile like electricity like some people compare to like the wheel or fire like again i'm i'm gonna be one of this like grand development but okay go for i compare to life i compare to like the bills of life on earth yeah yeah i think it's a new life form basically and i think it's going to be that transformative i agree i i i say like electricity because i feel like people can slightly comprehend what i'm saying but like and they think it's like a exaggeration but i i agree you know we're we're creating a a form of life here yeah it feels weird sometimes out somebody post about this other day where they're talking about i like hell if was like way less than one percent of people get what's happening right now it's just an odd time to be alive and understand what's happening i kinda find it funny now i guess just like all this is happening and most people just think with is like a cool chatbot or something do you ever feel like ver like do you do you yourself like feel overwhelmed and you're like this is wild like oh yeah totally especially because right now with ai i'm like you know juggling four different little businesses they're all cash flowing and getting involved more things in ais it's enabling that we're in the past no way i would have been able to have done that and now you're showing me this i'm like oh maybe that could be doing more yeah yeah and with my personality is like why not do more yeah course do more yeah i feel like that's that's a common journey that people are going through and like i feels they are ignorant and then they they find out about it and like those skeptical then they're really excited then they get so excited that if anything it gives them vertical that like this is insane like this is this is way bigger than than anyone is realizing yeah and then i feel like the final stage is almost one of denial it's like once you get past the point of the vertical like some people like hangouts there for like a while i i saw was there for like a very long time and i feel like at some point you almost it turns almost into a shrug it's like yeah i guess it's coming and like i don't know else do or say about it you know i guess i'm just gonna keep living my life in a normal way until it happens right yeah well mean you know had this conversation last about the end kind of slightly on a dark note you know i am more on the optimistic side of where this all goes i think you're kinda a little bit more worried about where the technology goes and not to today i'm not worried at all but i'm i'm definitely more optimistic so for me i'm definitely on the side of let's accelerate this as fast as possible and for me the main thing is you know making sure that the us and it's allies win at this right but that that's like my overall goal in life right now was like i've been trying like what can i possibly do in my life it's actually important any small little thing i can do to make sure that countries that care about freedoms and civil rights actually win at this and that's what spreads around the world that's what's important to do and look like for the record like i am ninety percent optimistic i think there's a ninety percent chance that everything goes well i'm just saying like even if it's ten percent chance of literal extinction that's very high that's much to high for con but yeah look even if things go well i think like to some extent there is a degree of like instinct mammal reaction where it's like change is scary i think it's just like we currently leave in the middle ages and we're going to be catapult into the three thousand yeah it's gonna be weird and fast overwhelming yeah totally actually i was having this conversation with my mom the other day if i talked to her like twenty years ago there's no way she would imagine that she'd be like all in youtube all the time right and checking all these websites all the time i mean like life for like people all ages has already like dramatically changed and it is amazing that we just adapt so it it feels like yeah we are gonna be catapult into this crazy new future and i think people are just gonna get used to things over and over you're right i think you know you'll you're totally right actually so i was just laugh about it it's like things are gonna get humorous like are gonna be very unusual and that's great just fun and it's so laugh about it i i think yeah as long as it goes well no i guess you're rights that like humans are very deductible right any of these true that like we've guns through many chin like waves of change like if you think of covid it right it was like alright i guess that's life lifestyle you know we just get used to weather is going on like almost alarming quickly right my first million hosted by sam par and sean burr is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my first million features famous guest like alex ram sophia ama and hassan hassan min h sharing their secrets for how they made their first million and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunities they recently had a fascinating episode about how you can scale a profitable agency with zero employees using ai agents listen to my first million wherever ever you get your podcast one other thing i've been thinking about too is like to get back more i'm talking about like some material things people who are listening like business owners and things like that if who listening one thing is really crazy and i was like it's getting really hard to predict where anything is going with companies like i've seen like perplexed announced comment so they've got a browser now and i like okay well maybe the browser is gonna touch it's like almost like a new operating system in way with ai it's gonna touch everything you know you guys are like interacting with crm now hubspot connecting to quad mc claude announced that they're going to be you know doing emails and managing your contacts it's like it feels like almost all of the different companies or like stepping on each other's toes in one way or another and i think in the past it feels like oh you know google's doing this and you can kinda predict what they're gonna do next and it feels like all the major companies are all gonna all fighting for you know things that have a lot of overlap right now yeah i've thought a lot about it there is one friends that i argue with all the time about this because you know look if it is true that good production is going to basically be free if it is true that you're gonna to be able to build any product you want in one prompt like there's a very big f here right but if you really believe that you can build something even perhaps as as like crm in the limit right or like an email client which just a prompt then it is true that like the last mode left and the last barrier to entry it is distribution i think it really means that like production and product is being to basically be with zero and i think we're gonna have this like immense conglomerate of mega apps you know and the kind of conglomerate that like so far right now there's like two mega apps those like the google ecosystem and like the microsoft ecosystem right like the office suite like those are the two players right like they give you email they give you documents to give you directory they give you file system all of that stuff like like team collaboration all of that stuff right it's telling that the only two companies that have been able to pull this this up or today like two or three trillion dollar companies it's just really hard to build that much product right you know and i think like salesforce has been trying to be this bigger app as well but are doing it in a different fashion than like they're acquiring the choir qui for like the office suites they're acquired slack for like the collaboration and all of that stuff i think it is likely that we start to see more mega apps yeah this product is going to be less of a differentiator and less of an obstacle and as a result i do think that it is likely that is the intensity of competition increases dramatically over the next few years you do angel invest in some startups correct yeah great but how do you think about that right now because like i recently invested in a i'm not gonna say the name but like a start up that's doing come you know kinda mixture between like using ai for email and crm and then i see what you're doing i see what hubspot doing i see what clyde just announced i'm like okay yeah so maybe they already have like ten competitors and i thought they had like one yeah yeah how are you thinking about that with your insulin i don't i i think like one of the advantages of being an angel investor instead of a overseas that you get to be delightful un about your investments like you get to do like vibe based investment oh this is a smart guy i like him and i like the you know yeah total kind of his gym whatever the product is great like yeah i mostly like a product guy like i that makes total all sense just is a ride like luca i was one of the phil checks in lovable i was like yeah i can type this thing get a website yeah this sounds great you know think my mind i i should've have anton was messaging me and i like i was busy on though i started writing checks like maybe like three or four months after that actually my first angel checks and i messaged him later i was i'm so busy y'all check out sometime time and was just like yeah and never checked it out i actually met recently vc and this is my point about angels getting to be un i met a vc who passed on them and as they told me you know we couldn't get to a point of view on like the future of the category and who's going to be the winner and what's gonna be the mood and i'm like i totally get it i i get things from like their point of view because they signed like huge checks you know and i'm i'm so glad in that in the shoes like yeah the vibes were great i loves the product i love the guy just just put the check yeah yeah and he was hustling on twitter like super hard back then remember he was putting out tons of videos are like yeah i'm building this i'm building this with it yeah so i i i tried to not think my enjoyed investing and he's working out of us invest exactly you know the mid kill i think that's kind of that it's like invest in good people and good products and the right it's gonna work out right makes excellent what products should end with like some key takeaways of like how can people you know anyone who's listing to this right now when can they try the new lin and like what would you tell people like what are they gonna able do with this that maybe they couldn't do before yeah right now you're go to lin dot ai it those a big text box and you type what you want in there and it's gonna do it for you i think again that's that's the beauty of if it's like ai agents or no longer like a good thing that like you see a lot of people hype about on twitter second you you got a text box to type something you get it it's that simple what people are gonna be able to do with it like think of it as a really smart really cheap really fast turn and you have infinity turns now and so like that's my point to by like the analysis is like i have infinity in terms and imagine i have like a full time there doing like insane competitive analysis that's what they're doing anything that you find yourself doing more than twice basically any task can now take you about five minutes to automate fully end to end and so if you're gonna spend more than five minutes doing this task over the next month just create an agent for it and basically if you do it well over time your job should consist more and more of just upgrading your agents just office orchestrating you on the agent ecosystem inside of an org who do you think are the many people who use lend and like and and do you think you should have someone who kinda manages all the agents or like everybody not as simple everyone should just they're gonna have to to do it on their own for whatever role they have i think it's both we do see companies that tends to be a champion inside the company like every company has got the ai guy right so like that's really helpful to have yeah yes you should have that person that creates a bunch of other ai agents but again if you fully embrace which we do like if you fully embrace the vision of the ai employee should every employee pulled up to the same person inside the company i don't think so right i think you really want everyone in your company you tell them basically everybody got the promotion congrats your major of like a an unlimited amount of interns that's right the the more creative you can be you know more productive you can be you can that's more and more of them yeah that's right and i think so far you have a centralized pi that built jobs should be to facilitate these transformation inside the company i really view it as it's the same thing as digital transformations like we're moving from like pen and paper and fax to computers and from computers on prem to cloud like it's the same things like you're moving to from like humans to like an ai first company and you expect everyone to pitch in and everyone to turn themselves into these managers of ai agents and so you sort of need like a little bit of you need someone until like constantly be like a winged in the backs of people because otherwise the sellers goes is going to win and and people are gonna get stuck in their habits mh but yeah no i think like the functions i i think again go to market i think prospecting is a really big use case like sd seo account executives like coaching people is a really big use case like we've got ai agents now sitting in every meeting in the company and like they report on meetings they coach people who are in meetings engineers like it's really useful for like good reviews for like qa as well to like test your application for recruiting is really helpful like it's it's basically form of sales recruiting for counting it's more and more helpful like any like sort of like batch document processing like we've got a company that receives a lot of invoices they have an agent it uses computer use because it uses quickbooks and the quickbooks api is not good don't know if anyone quickbooks is listening to us but like the the api is bad and so we were never able to make it work and so we just now we're just going through the backdoor and we're using computer use and it just receives invoices by emails looks at like the invoice number all of that stuff finds the vendor on quickbooks like enters all of the information again it's a red spa thing film i i i sit here think about like what this is gonna do to her performance reviews like i've successfully set up ten lin you know someone comparing some sm these other ones they actually got this person got thirty lin going and they're all like producing results that being like how you judge how will an employee is doing based on how many you know lin they're properly you know have set up in in operating you are kidding but we have one employee and like they're killing it everyone's like oh my god like they'll the go don't know how they do it and we as a user of lin you receive an email at the end of every week that's like lin saved you x hours this week and this employee share the screenshot of their report and their report goes like lin saved you like the equivalent of forty full time employees this it's it's like two thousand hours it's like oh my god that's how you do it like we basically have like a whole different org inside the company we even know that so like this was just got like a whole org of like forty eight agents working for them it's actually much more fully in like thousands of agents a second equivalent at a full time employees will of work yeah and it's got while like then do you pay them a lot more money because of that or like the company owns the set up with the agents that's kind of complicated the company does own the agents so don't give them ideas it's like i want you let's saving you forty times money give me ten times more money you know that's no it's also costing us a pretty penny employees at lin have like unlimited lin credits but like it's very expensive actually the tokens are so expensive mh and so our will own lin build is outrageous and we're very happy to do it because like in the end our i will overall burn like compared to how fast for growing actually really slow really small mh and that's because like i actually think we spend almost as much in tokens as we're do in humans wow is most of that money going to ant philanthropic or open ai or ant is the default model today and yes most just being to topic expertise yeah one other thing when you were talking about all the different use cases can you create invoices and stuff with lin yet i'm still using fresh books to send out invoices for a few different things and like it's such a pain it's like why am i paying these people to just generate invoice and email it it can do anything that you can do on the computer okay awesome i gotta try that so computer use man just try it and yes it will create invoices for you awesome cool what it's been great to have you on here i think this has been a useful episode for people and anyone who's listings they should check out lin and try it out yeah i'm percent yeah thanks for having me yeah it's been great thank you

what if your fig design could become a working app just by asking in this episode of the next wave our guest is david ko from fig he showed us a demo of fig make a mind blowing new tool that turns your designs into live working code with nothing more than a prompt whether you're a designer a founder or just someone dreaming up ideas on the train this is the next evolution in software creation no more handoff offs no more designer versus dev debates just collaborative multiplayer magic live in the browser david walks us through with how fig make builds dashboards games and real data powered apps on the fly he shares fig vision lessons learned from their first ai rollout and with the future design and creation might look like in a world of ai native workflows if you wanna see the future product design this is it but before we get started you know we've spend a lot of time on these episodes and it would mean a lot to me if you could hit the subscribe button it helps grow the show and get on better gas to provide more value to you so without further ado let's jump in with david ko from fig cutting yourselves like well half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow david thanks for coming on the show thanks for having me super excited to here yeah you know kind of a crazy story i've been a user and a fan of fig for a long time actually recently one of my designers my previous start bind it he told me you've got tri to fig my out and i was like okay i'll try it and i've loved it ever since been awesome to see how big fig become a house become kinda the standard and then when ai started happening i was like oh god hope fig gotta be okay we just everyone's using fig now all the designers but what happens when ai starts coming into the picture how is that going to change things and i saw dylan introduce fig make you know maybe a few months back and like okay i get someone from fig on the show and also just to learn you know how it works and like where you guys are planning to take fig in the future yeah i think people wanna start off like explain what fig make is a little bit and then let's just show them how it works yeah and maybe before jumping into make i should mention so fig me ai has been around a couple of years and we have a ton of ai features embedded in all of our products so you can use them in fig jam to summarize stick and help you brainstorm inside fig slides you can generate images and rewrite text inside fig sites you can fill in content as you're building out your site we've totally rebuilt our search engine to use multi modal embedding so it can search by text by frame by image but the thing we're most excited to talk about and focus on today is our biggest net new gen native product which we're calling fig make yep so fig make is a prompt two code tool that lets you get started with either natural language or a screenshot or a fig frame and it will write code for you and show you an interactive playable version of the app that you can rip with we've built it to be multiplayer first so multiple people can be in here chatting alongside each other oh using code visuals and language so just to give you a quick sense of it i mean it's one of these starting prompts for a data dashboard so you can see here the prompt is creating intuitive and visually appealing dash word that provides users with a whole bunch of more specific things i'm gonna go ahead and send this off and you'll see here the model is starting to reason so it's starting to think about you know what different components it's gonna need it's summarizing its action plan and now it's going ahead and starting to write some types files over here we're seeing the code starting to stream from the model based on this prompt there's actually a whole file structure different components here of code that's been preloaded and generated by this and sometimes it can take a couple of minutes depending on the complexity of the thing you're asking for so while this goes ahead in streams i'm gonna pull a little bit of a martha stewart and swap this out for another version of the exact same prompts which i already ran ahead of time so this is same prompts you know you can see the the whole set of reasoning it did and it went ahead and created the first version of this dashboard application you'll see one thing it just immediately followed up with is please note fig make is not designed for collecting personally identifiable information but we can actually add a whole database to this to make the data real oh so we can go ahead and shoot you that in a second but we recognize for lots of applications from prototypes to internal tools to string up things you wanna publish being able to persist data real data and connects the data sources is really important so anyway we'll look real quick at what it actually made so it says you know here's the dashboard you can see there's some interactivity activity and the hover states on this chart here a couple different charts showing different breakdowns so it's essentially actually you know looks kinda nice there's a hover state there's a list of project entries some of this stuff is not fully hooked up but it gets you a started at this to like a great way to like prototype something yeah totally and i think you know one of the things we've really seen too is that this brings a whole team together where you know we've really optimized for designers which i'll talk about more in a second but everyone can come in here and start r and building on this simply with language and so i'm just gonna go ahead and create a new project here this is a test project using super base which is a third party tool we integrate with that basically can host data and so you can see here it stood up a database based on the underlying sc of the prompt of the project i was describing where it's gonna store this data and it's also starting to write now server code not just front code that we'll be able to handle what happens when you click buttons and you wanna add new things and store them and so this is a really powerful piece of functionality to make these things long lived that's awesome and so we'd like they just figured out the sc you need and i guess if there's anything that you might have missed it'll go and update the database and they add have new tables and everything like that yeah exactly and this is something you can iterate on over time say add new columns add another table for users not just for you know revenue as an example right here and so yeah this is a you know really powerful sort of building blocks to make even richer experiences and so a lot of what we're starting to see people you know use this for is building richer sort of higher fidelity prototypes in interactions to prove out ideas and get more feedback on them and so traditionally in the product design process you know making mo and fig great even making traditional prototypes and fig where you hook up noodles to connect you know workflows is really powerful but also it's kind time consuming and there's also a limit to what the fidelity is of those experiences you know there is no data stored on them you know they're not actually code back so you don't get the full fidelity of of interactions and so what we've seen is people are using this both if they don't have the skill set to engage in fig design is fully as other you know professional designers and also for designers to pick up where fig has traditionally ended you know a lot of designers don't know how to code you know that deeply mh and so it feels like a superpower to get something where you can bring in your designs and keep going yeah totally i mean like i'm an okay designer in an a okay code i'm not amazing at either one and i've always like when i used fig mo i was like okay you know i spent a lot of time making something beautiful and then to go actually coating it oh my that's a lot of work and usually when i go code it i end up getting lazy and it looks slightly different and like okay that's good enough this close enough so i was like if i could actually get my beautiful design and like press a button in the future and then be able to tweak an ai that'll be amazing only hundred percent so while this is checking on on the database piece which you can imagine i just wanna to show sort of a couple other pieces so maybe just to pause the database example to give you a sense of how this works with design systems we know design systems are you know really important for teams know they create consistency for users and what you expect you know out of the products and so they allow you to you know have an level little consistency but i'm super curious like how does the design system work with this so i may not know the full functionality of like regular fig because i know you can like save colors and things like that fonts yeah is it beyond that can you like say your button types and all kind of things like that and yeah great question so basically taking your design systems in fig which have tokens and variables they have you know colors fonts themes and converting that into something that can be used basically as an input to this generation and so actually over here i did have an example where i converted the same output into the fig simple design system which we've opened sourced and using those set of styling instead so you can see it's like you know now using this sort of fig branded aesthetic and we're excited to do over time much more here you know here hear a lot of requests to like use my literal components and i can show you the workflows we have for those today as well yeah it seems powerful like i've been using cloud code and factory both a lot more to like create you know prototypes and his play around and you know one thing is like getting them to actually follow design system like the best thing i figured out is like can kinda like map out part of your design system mean like a markdown file or something in hand to them but that it keeps forgetting so if you had something that's directly in fig is it seems better to me i'm blame yeah and i should mention as well like you know people are used to breaking and editing in fig so it's not justin in prompts you know you can use this kind of magic pointer tool and starts to go ahead and just refund things in line and you could do that with your team is the multiplayer aspect of this so you just yeah yeah exactly so i can go ahead and share this file and everyone sees the same thing just like you back from fig design yeah and actually multiple people can chat so you see my avatar here in a multiplayer file you'll see other people's avatars with their prompts and something we've invested a lot in is making that work across modalities so if if someone makes changes you know visually here versus via prompts or even versus via code it all plumb through to everyone else and so we want this to be a surface where an engineer can come and r with the pm and the designer and make their own version i'm like okay here's how exactly this should feel and how does the multiplayer work with the prompting like i i assume it's one person prompting at a time and they're like what their when kinda seems like okay it's i mean they just see it happening and they hit to wait i guess yeah yeah good question basically what happens while prompt is running is it you know you get a analytics state and you pause run new anyone and server everyone gets that same experience can either like wait for the thing that's been running to finish running or you can kill someone's stuff for you and we find that works pretty well her and you know if if i wanna start r on this i could have like an inline contextual prompt for it but i could also like jump on over and see exactly the piece of code that corresponds to this and start changing that directly as well there if i have that context you know i grew group on irs for for me saying this i'm like imagining some crazy collaborative project where everyone just like messing around and making something together and like just sharing the link online it'll be fun but yeah well i think how teams to actually get real use out of this sylvia yeah hundred percent yeah i mean i think that's been the magic of fig always is like fig was born on the web it was multiplayer first it's just sharing a link i think there are starting to be more and more of these you know prompt to code tools but think you know we have put a ton of effort in into making this work really well with your team across different personas and modalities yeah i i'm curious that i mean obviously you know lovable has been taking off and then there's v zero and there's a few different ones so i mean some of the functionality looks similar but you know what what's the main difference the main difference is it's more like designer first and you can actually kinda get in there and tinker with the designs and and things like that you know i'd say first and foremost this whole category is really early yep you know like we're talk about the whole space like none of these things existed like sure and it's like this whole space is getting figured out right now which is really exciting and a lot of that is you know building on the new capabilities of these models and trying to figure out the workflows that makes sense and so i'd say you know right now we've invested a ton in multiplayer as a sort of core thing you come to love and expect from fig and a lot on inter op with the rest of fig you know say you have a mock you're trying to build a sort of interactive visualize for solar system this is a traditional you know fig layer just from fig design gonna literally hit copy paste on this thing and go over here and say make this interactive and what you'll notice here is like there's a little fig mic on here like this is not actually just a screenshot this is all of the rich structured data that comes over with this it's every layer it's every token every variable every property and we have done a ton of work on quality to be the best place at generating high fidelity results from designs as a starting point and we've seen a really high percentage of our users start with designs as well and we've optimized for that you know even in the blank prompt box we say at the top like put your design in here and so i'd say one of the things you know we've really focused on is taking the workflows designers already have in fig and letting it go much further to express things out don't higher fidelity through code through interactivity in a way that's much lower effort than people have had before okay let's be honest your ai prompts aren't giving you the results you deserve but with a little coaching you can transform from basic prompts to engineering conversations that get you exactly what you want from chad gp that's what this playbook delivers not just random prompts but a step by step system with the exact techniques top ai professionals use every day you'll have your own personalized prompt engineering system that delivers consistent results get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show when i think about fig you know when it was first suggested i use it i used to use photoshop i still use it a little bit but you know using photoshop to create the designer website is a pain like just dealing with different layers there's a lot more manual work to do small little changes and then you get the fig it's like everything everything's easy to move around and and then only like that but then like you know you guys started giving all the like code or you could back to the css rules and all that kind of stuff you can use and so obviously this is like a natural revolution like okay now just give you the rules because then if you don't have a code that's hard to like know what to do with but now literally just create the code for the designer totally yeah and so here this example finished cranking so this was gonna bring in a you know a mock that how different itemized planets or the solar system and you can see based on literally make this interactive is the prompt and the underlying structure of the design that we brought in it inferred that you know each of these different planets is its own entity moving at different speeds they move around the circles it created you know this functional speed scrubber that works if i click on one of these planets there's an overlay that comes out did it know that because of the layer names or did it actually look at a picture or like how did it know that try to infer that yeah that's right so you know if i go back to the original design here like i can you know drill down a bit and you can see you know each of these different planets has been sort of like itemized with the planet name so like you know uranus orbit along with the arc that it takes and so like we found this kind of context he's like incredibly helpful for the model and so like you take a random screenshot and give it to any of those these tools like we'll do okay especially if you could write a longer prompt but to the point of like where is fig different is like fig is already the workflow design teams product teams are using to articulate design intent to detail out specific workflows and that data is super super valuable to model and they can pick up so much context from that to make the output really really good with all less effort makes sense it feels like you guys have done a good job when i was thinking about what think about doing ai i was like well right now at least from like twitter discourse kinda know twitter's kind of a bubble but you know it feels like the design community is very passionate about things and in terms of ai right now you know there definitely been some cohort like the design community this the kinda anti ai or at least that's what i've been seeing on twitter it feels like you guys are kinda doing a great job of making it clear like hey this is not replacing you like if i was a full time designer this is amazing because like for me whether you're designing or coding you know it it is the art of creating things right you're you're creating things out of nothing and now the idea that you could be a designer and not know how to code and you created something out of your brain and turned into real design and then now you turn to a real product that's just like that's amazing i i don't think like both people relative like how magical that is hundred percent yeah it's been totally uni inspiring and i think we've been blown away by just how much people can make with this and so maybe just to finish the demo section with a couple fun examples from no customers you know this is one of a map and like you know this looks a lot like a mock and i think traditionally designer might end here but like you can actually use this math and like you know that's like one prompts to add that level of banner activity and like you know imagine the feedback you're gonna get in a user study around you know exactly how this works to find coffee shops yeah based on this another fun one this was for a conference collecting all of the different icon geography and the logos for a team that was planning the conference and so it became a little bit of like their micro site for their design system out of the conference that they all put together in and published and sort of added all this wrap around with fig make kinda so we've seen internal tool start to really take off as well and so this was a really fun one of like a color palette generator that someone on a design team built to make it much easier to get the right sort of compliant colors with the exact mixes in different scenarios and like this is the kind of thing that you know is so much more powerful as an app that you can explore and send around relatives like a static thing and you never would have gotten a you know internal tools team to fund right but now someone can actually like go ahead and post their team because they don't like to wait right they just cut the idea and they design it and then and then it makes it totally and the last one like i've just been blown away by stuff we didn't optimize for you know based on how good these underlying models are and so like people have built full on three video games in this which is like kind of insane here's one that someone built which is i haven't actually even finished this game there's like a whole different world a bunch of different spells is like features that are kinda come out and start going after me and i'm like wow this is insane that like you know literally just through prompting you're able to get to this level of expression you should make a like a old school rpg with this is or i used play request that's actually how my career got started yeah yeah it reminds me of playing every request and like kit mobs and like you gotta do the failed and you gotta run little bit then there's this stuff coming at you yeah someone actually recreated dude oh cool which is pretty well very cool my first million hosted by sam par and john per is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my first million features famous guests like alex h sophia ama and hassan min h sharing their secrets for how they made their first million and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunities they recently had an a fascinating episode about how you can scale a profitable agency with zero employees using ai agents listen to my first million wherever ever you get your podcast so i'm i'm curious like who is the user of fig make is it gonna be primarily designers or are you guys trying to reach out to people beyond designers as well because i i definitely see how this becomes a super superpower for designers i am curious you know how other people side design would use this or how they get value out of it if they're not a designer or or if you guys don't care about that you're just serving designers only you know and if other people use it that's great you yeah yeah great question yeah we optimized for designers to start and so we've done a lot to you know as i mentioned bring over that context from fig design but also make this a great place for a whole product design engineering teams to work together and so the fact that code is there and you can change that the fact that you have a pointer and directly we you know change different aspects of the experience like all of these have been designed so that your designer your pm your engineer can use this as a collaborative multiplayer surface to iterate on what the product experience should feel like together which is what fig been great at historically as well and so you know that's definitely they've been the core right now i'd say you know we've started with prototyping as a heuristic scenario and we've been surprised how blurry the line is between what is it prototype and what is production okay and it's soon you can publish and start sharing with users and getting feedback and start using code libraries to hook it up to real back end to storing data like you know we've seen people pitch vcs and get funding on the things that they've built in fig make without you know anyone else involved with real users using it yeah wow and so i think we've been just totally blown away at the breath of cases people are already using it for yeah and maybe to share one more example we did a ton of dog food on this before it went live it was really helpful in iterating on quality we often generally have a dog f oriented culture at fig mo but this was over the top that we called it the great fig bake off and we had like twenty different meetings scheduled for the whole company in every time zone where people from the team would be there to answer questions or troubleshoot or help you work with bugs we had a competition like what were the coolest things people made and all sorts of people made inspiring thanks and i think one of the coolest ones for me was someone on the hr team who had zero design background zero technical background they used workday as a source of truth for people data they found it work the api and they built a game that uses the real people data of the company that shows four paces and four names and you went to guest goods who yeah and it like became viral within the company of people like playing this game and trying to you know get no other colleagues crazy and i was like wow this is something that like no one would have funded as like an internal crap what the hell are you talking about right it's why pitch that right but yeah let's go and resource doing this and it's like you know it's a persona we didn't optimize for it like we didn't build finger make for hr people right oh but it's just been totally inspiring to see you know how accessible it has made the process for everyone it's awesome my friend who used to run a design agency in san francisco just imagine you know for him like you know when when you're pitching new clients if he could just like design things and then just had a prototype there it's like that's just nuts right compared to like oh here's a design like here's a prototype that works you know yeah that's just totally yeah still wanna go back to us said previously about like if you guys had any backlash on this from designers because i assume you guys got some i think i saw some online a little bit when it first got announced but i assume you know if i was a designer even if i didn't like ai maybe at first i'd be like oh this sucks at ai and then i'm start using it my day to day work and it's just like oh it's making my life so much better so like how can you keep hating it is that kinda help with yeah you know i'd say just to zoom out from the story of make to the sort of fig may you know we shipped stuff last year at config twenty twenty four we shipped a feature called make designs mh which was our very first attempt at a prompt to design products inside of fig design and so you could say you know make me a landing page for and you would create it not as a code prototype but as native fig frames and we messed up in a bunch of ways on that like we messed up explaining how it works and so there's confusion on that like it use off the shelf models and templates that are customized and it was funny we had called the project internally first draft and the whole point of it was like solve the blank canvas problem get you started make it so that like you know we're doing your laundry new chores and you're doing the creative part as a practice design team and i think make designs even in the name implied much more than that and it's like we're gonna do the whole freight which is not designer you don't need to do any design just we'll do it for you totally and like you know we we are a design company we are four designers and so i think it was definitely a big learning and like how we talk about these things and what they're for and i think with make i think what we did right was we started with things that designers have trouble with and they can't do which is getting into the code layer and so we can sort of start at the end of the process where a lot of people do get sucked today with the current set of tools and so i think it felt like something net new as opposed to automating parts of the process that i have a lot of opinions expertise taste around which was not original intention but you know easy to to come across wrong and so i think that was definitely a big learning you know for us in general as the company that pride itself on being advocates for design as a function and champions of designers is like making it i'm really really clear that this is kind of trying to give you new superpower i am curious like where does fig and fig make where this go like in three to five years how does this work like if you're a designer yeah i can't make forward looking statements why i have two kits i have a six year old and a three year old and my six year old yeah over the last year started playing ipad games he's like addicted to duo lingo he's like a daily active user awesome wearing math and chest and that kind of stuff and he started using make before we launched and i was like curious to see as a very much not target persona right like how understandable would it be and he is like hooks like he on you know begged me to like spend more time on make and you know walking home from school or you know at the grocery store running errands he'll be like i had an idea for a new one betty oh that's so like you know he's made like six games now he'll sometimes come home from school with like a sketch of like a map or a level and he's like take a picture of this like we should use this as a starting point moment and honestly it is like mind blowing and i'm so jealous like right yeah imagine being a kid like you you have any idea like i can actually make this now the ai won't help me make it i i'm an eleven year old son you know he grew in san francisco ran a bunch of like tech and game industry like executives that people like that but he was little until you got see all this kinda like creative world there right like artist artists like like that we used have like artist parties where we draw in the walls and he'd be there with artist drawing on the wall but now we live in japan you know japan's great but he's no longer in that kind of environment i i've been showing him things like a rep i showed him rep he loved that like he made like a little site with that but the websites were really ugly so i was like okay you know and he didn't really like how ugly it was which i think rep and those guys got a little bit better but i think some like fig make where he could actually like go in and and tweak the design itself too would be awesome for him to be able to see the whole process of like making it look good and and then actually shipping it would be incredible yeah i love his this feedback and important parts and chris okay i'll get the done i think to your question i'm like you know what's the future look like you know find years from now i think it's like making the path from idea to production i did so reality so much work and like you know seeing even game toy examples with my son makes me realize like the way people think about the workflow the way you think about what's possible the way you explore ideas is gonna be totally different and i think in this new world design is even more important than it has been and design isn't just pixels it's empathy for users it's understanding of your target audience it's you know knowledge of current workflows and where they fall short it's exploring the whole solution space and thinking deeply about each of the nodes that you might not have had time to you know in the old world yeah it's getting down every animation and interaction of the experience and so one of the things i'm really excited about in that future is like software is gonna get freaking awesome like everything is coming back so much more thought through so much more explored every fit and finish is gonna be better and by the way there's gonna be a lot of low quality software too yeah totally like there's just gonna be more software than has ever been made it's like in the early days of the web that's why website said the podcast before now group and iris like the web you used be like fun you know yeah it was messy it was you know with total mess but it was easy to get there just like tinker and make websites and now you don't really see that eating more so i'm hoping that stuff like fig my make brings that back we're like yeah the web becomes fun again because people can just have ideas and just easily make stuff totally yeah i think we'll see like you know even more long tail personalized experiences for different schools and communities and like people building stuff for themselves yep and the stuff that's built for everyone being like even more sophisticated and you know helpful in in a wider range of i think your applies some really interesting experiments around collaborative creation of things too i think you see like communities like actually creating new kinds of projects and stuff together will be fun totally cool so you know this is a total theoretical scenario imagine you got a time machine and you're in the new york time machine you got out it's twenty fifty what's different anything different it look the same it's still the same bagels and pizza is there other stuff going on in new york or were going on i mean new york bagels since pizza are not going anywhere there's hopefully honestly twenty fifty is so far right like ten years let alone that far it's like man i you know i have aspirations there's whole conferences on this stuff and it's like you know very hard to predict in everything right it's something i like to rip on and like let look hear what people say it's a great prompt i mean stuff i'm like personally excited about way am coming to new york figuring out how my kids get play and stuff is hard excited for ai to get your level of trust and safety and rollout out to like the point where getting around in the world is like a solved problem and like that seems like it's happening which is super exciting like way moe was fantastic health is really hard i personally have celiac disease and was diagnosed about two years ago and it's been a whole learning journey about you know what can i eat and what are my sensitivities and so forth and lots of blood tests and follow ups and you know even for me chat has been like so helpful in understanding what the terminology means and all that and i think in broader access to that level of expertise with verifiable trust and awareness is gonna be huge for society just like people understanding what's happening in their lives and things that are really core yeah from health to finance to dealing with the insurance because they're house burned down to all of those kind of core fundamental things that are like anxiety provoking complicated and scary and it's hard to get experts to actually understand the whole system and so i think that's gonna be like incredibly meaningful in a ways that are like hard to really internalize still right and then there's like the really out there stuff of like are we all gonna have neural lengths or glasses on our faces that like understand the world around us and are chatting with us so we're gonna have moon colonies by then that everyone gonna be living longer like i hope all those things are true and like you know i'm an opt optimistic in a tech twist but you get into like singularity theory type of questions and yeah once you report to singularity all bets are off who knows what the hell happens right yeah the health thing that's something i think about a lot because like you know if you think about a doctor they go to school for eight years or whatever it is and a lot of much about reading a lot of books and trying to retain as much of that knowledge as possible and maybe if you're lucky they retain like five percent of the knowledge or something and then over time they get more expertise by dealing you know with patients but obviously ai could take in all that knowledge and over time actually understand all that we've learned and then start expanding upon that and then combine that with also liking more data on us individually you know even like down lowest level possible it seems like ai will be able to understand us in the future like eventually we will have ai at like okay nathan what's going on with your body right now like you know there's like a be things totally unexpected like oh some cancer started for this reason and you know and then we can kind of solve it this way that sounds like sci f five for people by i i really strongly believe that's coming it may it may take like twenty or thirty years hopefully it's more like ten but that's gonna be such a game changer for people yeah i'd say also you know just on the you know the role of ai and these in the workforce us as well you know i think we'll see as it continues to evolve and capabilities come out i think in every sort of industrial breakthrough and revolution has been concerns about what it means and ultimately people have learn of new skills and been even more productive on things that are even more meaningful and so i'm yep personally really optimistic and excited and i think seeing people like my son start to use you know fig make and tools like it totally new ways makes me feel like you know there's just new frontiers to work on and like what work means will change yeah is a designer i think you know when we have robots building things i mean like what being a designer it's gonna be it's gonna change maybe you're like almost like an architect you're like literally like designing new building you know on the moon or or mars or or wherever we go and you know a designer bill to actually like come up with things like make ai assistant maybe do they do themselves whatever but call a combination and then the things become real things and digital things it's it's gonna be such a crazy time to be alive totally yeah i can't wait for that cool man there anything else you wanted to talk about where we got here or honestly i was kinda curious like your head takes too and like you know you've tried a lot of these tools you know what's your sense of where the market's going you know how you see fig fitting into it so i i've only played with fig make a little bit quite honestly i played with it yesterday i like to have people on and like trying to have as like a real response to what they're showing me as possible versus like yeah i've actually tried all of this i know everything you're doing and now i'm faking and pretending like i don't know what's going on or like i'm learning something new i play with it a little bit to exactly what i was hoping it was especially the fact that you can just like like import the design in and hadn't like start from the design because i feel like the market like you know what lovable doing it's great i do feel like it's saturated there's gonna be there's a lot of players in that space so i think you know i've also had on mat baton the founder of factory who's competitor with devon and and like devon in fact i think that's interesting that's called a different side where it's it's all agents and it's more hardcore and like the enterprise and coding and so like it makes sense that you're not competing directly with level or or v zero you're doing something more for designers and so i i think you guys are on the right path and you know it definitely seems like way better than what you guys announced in twenty twenty four quite honestly like i've ever saying that like oh this is you it's not i don't know that's all i it's kinda confusing i can see why designers didn't like it fig makes seems like the right path like this is something that give designers super superpower i you know haven't played around with the product enough to give you like honest feedback like oh it's amazing and all it all works and but at least conceptually and for what i've seen to the early version of it it looks great cool we yeah appreciate any candid feedback at any point yep i'll play with it more you know as i said we're just getting started you know in general an ai in this market and i think it fig ai as well and we have a lot really exciting stuff coming we're very focused on this so you know any and all feedback from you your listeners really excited for it and yeah stay tuned for some fun stuff ahead awesome it's been great having you on here is there anywhere like people can find you online or are you all active on on twitter or on linkedin or anywhere like that yeah i'm on twitter in linkedin david ka k s m i c k cool and yeah thank you for traveling me on this was super fun really appreciate it bye thanks

welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and if you've been keeping an eye on how ai is changing the way we work you're going to love today's episode i got to sit down with nicholas holland the head of ai over at hubspot where he spent nearly a decade driving innovation in this conversation we explore the massive shift happening right now from ai as a simple productivity booster to ai actually doing work on your behalf we talk about this new front here nicholas calls work as a service the rise of the super contributor in sales and marketing and how agents not just assistance are quietly taking over repetitive tasks in real businesses you'll hear a four step framework for getting your team started with ai why structuring meeting data might be your biggest hidden asset and what it means to become an agent manager in the near future it's practical it's forward looking and it's packed with insights you're gonna love this one so let's dive right in with nicholas holland cutting yourself cycle will half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow well thanks nicholas for joining us on the show today it's great to have you and excited to dig it and nerd out with you about ai how are you doing today good thanks for having me matt appreciate it yeah so let's get into a little bit of back i don't wanna go too deep on this but like how did you get into ai what's your relationship with ai and how did that sort of evolve into what you're doing at hubspot right now yeah so i been in hubspot for almost a decade i started off right in the innovation labs out of ireland then i took over the kind of content and marketing portfolios and eventually became what they call a gm so just responsible for product and revenue over the marketing products and ai has always been something that you know customer platforms like hubspot have had to do but it's really been like on the machine learning side i think of it simply as like scoring things so lead scoring has always been a big part of that mh when open ai came out with three point o there was rumbling in the marketing world about gen ai and so we started to look at that chad gp comes out and of course the world changes overnight everybody's using it talking about it and then we had multiple ai leaders and for whatever reason they didn't work out there was a point where they were looking for an ai leader in three years had gone by and marketing is being impacted the most i think by a our husband right and so here we are trying to serve the marketer and we had just put out a ton of value by applying ai on their behalf and so there was a point where do we go get an academic leader someone who you know major in ai and our product leader came to me and he said i think we need somebody who actually knows how to build things with ai and we would love to have you do it and i you know my specialty is in applying ai so if we do this we will become experts at applied ai and he said let's do it and so i took over about ten months ago and since then that's really been how we've just begin to drive really deep on how do we apply we're model agnostic we take you know a multi model approach and then we apply that you know we're at a point out where we don't even think ai is the limit anymore it's like how do you actually bake the cake yeah yeah yeah no it it's interesting because you mentioned marketing right my background was actually in digital marketing but because ai became such a sort of integral part of what marketers do now i started talking about ai as it relates to marketing and then over time ai got more and more popular and i went you know what i'll talk about ai and marketing but also just talk about ai because i just love this stuff but i feel like marketing is probably the area where i feel like ai is really sort of impacted things the most shoot for the marketers that are embracing it i'm saying like a rebirth of marketing being fun again saying a rebirth of like marketers kind of starting to find you know blue ocean again that was like the hardest part of like if you back the clock like two years ago it was a red ocean for all marketers everything had been figured out all techniques were basically known all the software had started to become homo now it's like blue ocean again you're seeing wild variances is in creativity tactics all that so it's pretty pretty cool yeah yeah i mean all of the really cool marketing that you've seen over the years that you're like oh this probably took massive teams and you know tens of thousands of dollars to produce has sort of been you know for lack of a better word democrat and now anybody could kind of do the really cool marketing stuff that you've seen and you know i love that that's what brought me down the rabbit hole in the first place i don't know how you say it matt when you're talking with others but like there's like a new role emerging i don't know what other companies call it but we call it like the super contributor in just the last week i've seen a marketer who runs a prospecting team now mh so let that think again like the marketer is now running the prospecting team and it's because they're using agents and different ai things to get that done so now you got a marketer doing some sales type roles i've got a sales guy that i was working with he does all of his own product marketing work now because he's using you know image creation he's doing videos he's doing all that seven so like it's just really interesting with all of these like capabilities coming on like what does it mean to be a marketer or what mean to be a salesperson person like this super contributor is now rising where it's really like if you have a lot of creativity and you've put in a little bit elbow grease to learn some of these things you got a couple of new superpower yeah yeah i mean you know guys like us sam alt and da ama die from ant philanthropic they've made comments about how they think the first one person billion dollar company is coming within the next couple years right that's because one person now could be the builder the marketer the salesperson the you know the customer support person they can do that all by using various ai tools and agents and things that are available to them so yeah yeah we're a pretty exciting world right now yep it's gonna be cool so i wanna talk to you a little bit about the shift of ai productivity to ai actually sort of doing a lot of the work for you and being able to use ai to build system because in the early days ai like when chad gp first came out and even before that when we had access to gp three and stuff like that it was really great at being like a productivity productive booster in the sense that it could help you write some emails and you know beef up your copywriting a little bit and and some little stuff like that but now it seems like more and more people are actually using ai to sort of build out their whole business system so i'm curious like what have you seen in that realm how are you seeing this shift from productivity to like now ai is sort of able to help run the show so about a year ago again like in the early state where i was first started to take over we started to notice that there's like this shift from saas software as a service to what we think is gonna end up being w people chuckle when we said it internally because it can seem a little cheesy but like work as a service mh and work as a service can look like you know we've even talked about it like should hubspot actually do marketing for people or do sales for people mh it could go that far but what we think right now is that like that is kind of the key differentiator between of the past like cloud or internet or mobile and then ai those were all enabling technologies that let you go basically faster so it's like you heard the old phrase henry ford said if i built what people ask for i had given them a faster horse right you know so we actually had that internal debate are we providing faster horses or are we providing cars and i think that ai when you start to shift to it doing work is a lot more on that car standpoint because with cars what came along you had new types of professions you had infrastructure changes with gas stations and roads you had kind of knock on effects of cities moving further out right i think that's the kind of equivalent that we'll see with ai and specifically like everybody's kind of in love with the concept of agents agents or a type of ai that get closer to that concept of work that it's basically something that's doing a unit of work i think for us what we're noticing now is like we group everything as an agent now internally mh so even like assistance like a chad gp they used to go out of their way to say like we're not an agent we're an assistant right but as ted gp gotten more powerful it's doing more work it's doing more things autonomously it is an right it's just an agent that interacts with humans so we're kind of seeing agents that interact with humans as assistance we're seeing agents now that basically you give it a goal and it'll go knock that out so that's more like a task agent or a work agent mh and when you look at that you know now you start to break it up into ways that like one you need to find parallels as a human to think about it so if you had chief of staff or an executive assistant they wait for you to tell them what you need right although some of the best ones anticipated but you know you asked them to do something and they will go do it you'll say hey can you take notes at this meaning can you let me know about this next meeting that i have coming up when you book this for me that is a body of work that's starting to happen now and a lot of people are using their ai assistance to do those type of things mh so now we have companies all the time ask like how should i approach ai one of the first things we say is give every employee and assistance mh mh we have one that's very good for go to market roles so marketing sales and service it's powered by chat gp it's got all the context of hubspot but like we say give them assistant and teach them how to start using that to basically help themselves the next thing though we move into are the agents and a lot of our customers are still thinking like what is an agent how do i go about this etcetera and so we have out of the box agents that basically a low lift you know fifteen minutes or less of time to have like a big body of work and so tier one support mh not just of service but also tier one support of marketing inquiries tier one support of sales increase that's like one of the agents we build right and then going from that once you start to now people will start to get an idea of how it works and then they'll start to build their own kind of special bespoke agent so we had a customer who wanted to build something called like an account hand agent and the easiest way to think about it they just had like this little pain in the rear that was a body of work mh that they couldn't get sales reps to do very well right so i'm the sales rep matt you are the service guy you're gonna deliver on what i just sold what happens in a lot of org because i'm like hey matt i just sold this new account please hook them up and you're like i mean what did you sell them what did you promise like can i get all the details and they're like yeah yeah you know what i'll get those over to you or they'll say can you go check out the crm and you're trying to piece me all the calls and all that stuff so again one of our clients was like can i build a an account hand agent that's brilliant yeah yeah it's hours through all the engagements it understands what it's trying to get done it then puts together an account hand and then if it's kinda like an ambient agent upon deal being closed it just now does the hand off like so i don't it's very hard to describe that to like a regular person without going deep because you're like that's a body of work that you didn't have an account hand person yeah but boy did you need it and at the end of the day that's like why i think now we're not seeing like employment collapse right that just makes that business so much better that makes that service person not hate that salesperson that makes the system now do this body of work and so that will then be like a net ad for that whole company so as a long answer it that that's like what yeah i love that so basically you have the the salesperson they're putting all of their communications into their crm you know hubspot for all of the communications they've had with that customer in the past once a sale happens then the person that actually has to handle the deliverables they basically essentially get like a quick reports essentially all of the past communication so i mean you might even have stuff in there about like their birthday or like their dog's name or something and then the person that takes it over can actually jump in and already have rapport other thing that's crazy too is like we all tend to think you're the star of your own movie so everything you do is you think about it from your standpoint we're seeing organizations now where on that one account they had an issue so they called in to support they then basically were talking to team a who has product a about this and then they bought product b right now that is all very important for like whenever you hand off stuff because that continues cross sell upsell conversation you know what things they've been upset within the past you might have multiple stakeholders so it gets very complex really quickly when you begin to think through all the different possibilities but what i love about this is like it's a very very human empathetic problem right i'm now in this value chain i would love somebody to hook me up with knowledge about how we got here and this person has already done their job they don't wanna waste a bunch of time handing it off to me and so i love it because it captures the moment that we're in that there's real value here it doesn't have to be a proxy for an entire job role the right business is happier the customer is happier like that's that's just a very like empowerment moment yeah yeah you didn't cut any humans out of the mix so you just made the humans involved a little bit more efficient at what they're doing totally real quick if you're enjoying my conversation with nicholas you're going to love this nicholas is giving us his three step framework for ai adoption it takes you from complete ai overwhelm to clear competitive advantage in just ninety days if you're drowning an endless ai tools nicholas has cracked the code on analysis paralysis his ai adoption playbook walks you from personal assistance to team agents to custom development with zero disruption to your workflow get it right now for free click the link in the description now let's get back to the show so i wanna jump back to agents for a second there's a bit of a debate right about like how do you actually define an agent i've actually seen people get really fired up about this over on x for some reason about how you actually define an agent and people getting an an argument about that's not an agent this is an agent so i'm just curious like how do you guys actually define an agent what's the difference between that agent and the assistant boy we get fired up internally as well one of the ways that i've learned to navigate this is you know inflexible thinking will be a real detriment to people during this ai phase i think flexible thinking there's gonna be a real boo and so it's not a is agent or is not agent it's more like a spectrum on this realm of autonomy right i think with an assistant we use that term to just represent the interaction mode like it's primary job is to interact with a human when we talk about these kind of task agents their job is to knock out a task you know there's another we we talk about internally as like a customer agent their job is to like work with third parties not in the company external so you have different kind of rules of engagement with those all of those are kind of on different realms of autonomy but in general i think the easiest way that like i've been able to put it together and my brain is like the fact that it can have some autonomy agency is really where this comes from the fact that they can have some agency and begin to do work is when it starts on that spectrum of basically being an agent the debates we have internally is in this i don't wanna make any anybody's mind blow but it's like if you go and you ask chat breeze ant philanthropic whatever if you say make me a blog post there be a lot of people who will dial on the hill saying that's not an agent that's just a prompt i say okay great no rock with me for a minute mh so then i'm like okay if i ask only breeze can do this but if i say breeze make me a blog post and it now does the same thing the first one did but it also is context aware of all of your brand guidelines is that an need there's still some people who will ball saying no that's not need mh but then for the first time i'm like well think about it it's now made on brand content that's that's hard enough to even get like one of your staff members to do that right so didn't you get into if i say breeze make me a blog post on brand and generate some images for it this is why i think jet gp has become more flexible in their definition of it because now it's done the writing it's got now some brand application and it's done an image that's related to it that's like really three jobs that used to be a copywriter a media slash image you know layout person and then of course the editor who would put it on brandon so this is what makes it so hard is because right at what point does it become an agent and so there are a couple of camps one is if it's doing any work on its own so that that would be all the way back to just the prompt as the prompts get models get better like that will work mh some will basically go on the path it's an agent whenever it effectively has a goal can make tool selection on its own and has context that's like our agent leader internally right now that's his whole thing because like it has to have multiple tools available to it right right they can do that and so i think right now that's why people get fired up about it is because the floor is moving up the models are getting better and better like i don't know if when chad t five comes out but like there's some rumors that like it'll now just be a super omni model like it'll just be one you won't choose a reasoning model you won't choose a writing model you won't choose an image model it'll just be that so that model will become more agent in nature and then also over time you'll give them more and more tools that they can choose from so yeah anyways that's a hard debate it's a trick question for anybody that you get us good in this space but like that's just some of the flexible thinking i have along that spectrum yeah yeah i mean it's very similar to the concept of ag right like are we at ag already if we do it hit it will we know if we do with the goal post moves and else that it depends on like like you said the threshold like there are some people out there that are smarter than others we probably got some ag based on those standards we got right exactly exactly i mean if you go back to like you know alan turing or someone like that back from like the nineteen forties i think he would probably say like you guys have ag already if you were to ask somebody back then right yeah if you to look at me in high school how far i was in now do we had ag like i was that was definitely ai is definitely smarter than i was back then yeah yeah yeah i mean when it comes to agents the definition that i've heard quite frequently is that it needs to work through multiple tasks but then also it should have the ability to kind of like double check its work so if it notices that it made a mistake it should be able to realize it made a mistake and then go back and double check it and one thing that i found really interesting is that you can actually get models like o three and o three pro some of chat gb models to sort of act like agents right now with a single prompts absolutely i was giving it prompts yesterday where i was telling it to you know come up with five solutions for this problem and then analyze all five and then pick the best result from the five solutions that you came up with i mean that is going through and really thinking through all sorts of avenues and then deciding on the best avenue you can also tell it things like you know solve this problem for me and then once you're done solving it review everything you just wrote find any logical fallacies with what you just wrote and then rewrite what you just wrote to fix in the the logical fallacies that you just found right at that one prompt is acting like an agent for you because it's double checking its working and then fixing the double checking of it so it's like yeah i mean like you mentioned it's just a a broad spectrum i'd say like some people would consider what o three does where it we'll work through and pick tools to use to help you get to a solution pretty agent already totally yeah and then that's at the model layer you know now what people don't know is like in one chat thread you might ask it a reasoning question you might ask it a basic knowledge retrieval question some knowledge already in the l a fast answer you might ask it to do an image you you know that's why they call them the o models because they're omni models right in my opinion we're already way down the agent pass so i spend less time h over what's an agent nowadays and now more to your point i'm much more fascinated by the work that it can do and so for our ai now and we're still early days in this but like i want the assistant the breeze assistant its mission is to be like your executive assistant your chief of staff that's it yeah and so that's all we says over and so we're doing like really cool things like with that we're like it knows who you are memory and all stuff it basically knows your role but it's also working really hard to like understand your calendar it's working really hard to understand what task have been assigned to you and so that to me is like well we start to get to work there's that and then on the agents you know that we just talked about a minute ago like the account hand off or the the sales prospecting agents like it's something where there's a body of work that it is particularly good at and that's what we're doing so we're trying to just really relentlessly find those bodies of work those use cases hammer those out with agents and then i think what's coming next is i think everybody's gonna be overloaded with agents that's my next theory yeah yeah you know a hundred agents working for you sounds cool you're that billion dollar one person company but on the flip side like man what does it look like to manage a hundred agents who knows yeah that'll be interesting i mean i've always liked the analogy of like a conductor right like you've got like your symphony and you've got your flu player and you've got your violin and you've got that and then you've got the conductor sort of conducting the whole thing and i feel like we're slowly moving to the role where most people get to be that conduct and they get to conduct all sorts of different instruments and the different instruments know what they're supposed to be doing and they do that thing well that's right i think what really excites me about the future of ai is when ai gets a little bit more proactive i think there's a lot of people right now that they sort of avoid ai they don't want to use ai that you know the ethics behind how it was trained and you know all sorts of reasons right but i think once ai starts to get like more proactive where it's looking at your emails looking at your calendars and then like maybe one day you just get like a message on your phone that's saying hey nicholas is trying to schedule a a call with you i see that you have this date open on your calendar would you like me to respond to him and book it in for that time right like once agents start doing that i think the world is onboard i think it's like okay i literally have a personal assistant in my pocket now we're close yeah we're closer than people think on that we're spending a lot of time thinking about like the primitives or like the low level things so there's this concept that's come up of these things called ambient agents they are proactive like you said the concept there is like they're listening to all signals at all times and then they know what to do so we have a pretty robust automation platform at hubspot that kind of is baked into the whole platform so everything that we do at hubspot like one unified code base everything we do it translates to all of our product lines mh so we've got this automation layer that touches everything and so when we were building agents we originally started off with like give it a goal so just think of like a master prompt then people wanted to give it a lot of data in context so this was like how do you feed it a bunch of information then they wanted tool selection so kennedy email candidate web search can do that so we did that so that was working really good but then people are like how do i run this thing and you're like what do mean it's like right here you click run and they're like man i'm not gonna go into your agent page and click run every time i need it like this is supposed to do a job but it should do it at this moment right this is like a really good epiphany for oh my god think about it like this it does a job but all of us have a signal do it at this moment and so we basically pulled the automation platform into the agent builder so that for an example you know again go back something simple like account research the first time a form is filled out you can go do account research you know the account hand the next time it's marked as sold it can go do the account hand and then there are other events that we listen to so it's not just on objects changing status like events so like you can actually say when person visits this page and we know with our customers like when they visit so now whenever matt visits this page it can actually kick off a whole stream of like write an email matt so good where you been haven't talked to you in forever and like so those ambient agents are here now again i'll go back to how good these are is gonna be less and less about the ai and more and more about like who is the shift cooking the meal right now right right so i wanna chat a little bit about real world use cases like what are some things that like business owners listening obviously hubspot has a very large audience of small and medium sized businesses so that's primarily who's probably listening to this podcast what are some like real world use cases that people can do like right now today using ai to help their business whether it be you know other ai tools or hubspot internal tools just like what would be some of your best advice right now well first i do think leadership needs to make a decision what you'll find in a lot of companies is that they'll have you know some forward thinker innovator on their staff who's dabbling and playing with this but until leadership makes a decision that they're going to embrace this kind of future of work it's very hard for a company to move forward mh so that's first i think you should have top down buy in once you do that the very first step that needs is that i think every employee needs an assistant it can be a gemini eye if it comes with your google account it can be chat if you want or claude ant philanthropic good and then of course we have breeze for people who have hubspot and breeze again is just chat powered plus all the contacts mh but everybody needs that assistant and then to your point from that point forward they should start learning how to interact with those assistants so that's just like your regular old prompts like what's the weather tell me i wanna play my trip to bermuda you know can you help me brainstorm on this marketing idea about to contact this customer you know they they have these objections how would you handle it it's like your thought partner mh once you do that the next thing i encourage companies to do is a little strange but it's like get all of your unstructured data into a central system so if you're using a fathom a firefly hubspot has a note taker mh get everything all the meetings all that stuff recorded get it into a system where now the assistant has access to it the future agents have access to it that's really critical because there's like eighty percent of a company's knowledge is locked up in phone calls and meetings yep so now you've got every employee has an assistant you've got your data now unified with unstructured and that's the first time that you should now start to choose an agent i think you should start with an now of the box one first the one that i think it's gonna be most ubiquitous kinda like websites kinda came up in the like nineties like nineties and it was weird when you first had a website and then became weird if you didn't have a website i think right now it's like in that early phases is it's kinda past weird but it's like people are starting to have agents that man the frontline support and it's because they never sleep you know they're helpful they're not trying to rush you off the phone they're not trying to really like turn you into a sales lead you know this all these kind of per reverse incentives whenever you're having a tier one support but hiring a customer agent like for hubspot all you do is like point it to your website if you have a knowledge base you point it to your knowledge base if you have some files you wanna give it you do that and then that's it it's it's literally those three things like upload a few files pointed it to your website point to your knowledge base and then we're seeing that it can resolve you know roughly fifty five plus percent of resolutions mh that saves a ton of time for your employees to now work on other stuff escalation all that and it still has like a hand kind of thing as well it has a a hand off so if you say i'm not happy with you you know escalate me it'll do that the other thing that it can do is like start to find out if you're like wanna talk to a salesperson and you wanna route to sales so you can have a very like informal conversation about products and pricing and packaging all that stuff without feeling rushed and then of course when you're ready it can do that so that's the kind of the first agent that i recommend people do and then after that i recommend that they then begin to bring their people along on what i kinda call like ai fluency this goes in a bunch of different directions but like carve out time like one day a month for them to mess around with this stuff there's like educational stuff that hubspot provides like help them come along and you'll turn around twice and then in a year your people are fluent all of them have an assistant you've got an agent or more working for you and then the software that you use day in and day out if it has ai features like hubspot has like over a hundred ai feature just baked in they're not scared to click it we noticed a bunch of people like ai features are coming into all these software tools and a lot of people were like i don't know i don't know what it does i don't i don't know how much it cost you know like busy and so that's what we think like an ai leader looks like their data game on point their employees are on point their agents are working i think that's it my first million hosted by sam par and john murray is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my first million features famous guests like alex rem sophia ama and hassan min h sharing their secrets for how they made their first million and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunities they recently had a fascinating episode about how you can scale a profitable agency with zero employees using ai agents listen to my first million wherever you get your podcast yeah i like that a i think one of the things you mentioned that it's been sort of a game changer for me is i've started recording a lot of my meetings and if you actually have the chat gp desktop app they actually have like a record button now too where to record your whole meeting and then at the end of it give you a summary give you a need to do items so i just actually hit the little record button on my chat gp and i don't take handwritten notes i'm just like very focused engaged on the conversation when the meeting is over i go alright what did i say i was gonna do what did they tell me i needed to do what are they gonna do for me what my action items and in those threads a lot of people again this is like we're all pretty like new to this game but like those threads in chat gp are kinda of the saying like we learned it in like breeze it's not just that moment people chat with it right now but like let's say that like you and i are in a sales engagement we're hanging out we're talking you did that recording thing and then let's say i go cold it happens all the time like we don't talk for two or three weeks and i'm like can we get back together and and chatting in you're like what the hell like what do we talk about and you can go back and ask questions of that conversation yeah this is like a new muscle that like tools like granola if you haven't seen granola dot ai or you know like these are new muscles that we've never even had before which is wait a wait wait minute wait a minute it's not just a transcript it's not even just like some structured follow up or task out it's like i can go back and be like what did matt say about this how did he feel about that like that's crazy yeah it's well i mean you know i think back to you know whatever fifteen twenty years ago right everybody knew everybody's phone number right like i knew all of my neighbor's phone numbers my parents phone numbers like all of my best friend's phone numbers i had them all memorized today i don't even know my mom's phone number i couldn't tell you what it is i it's all saved in my phone now i don't need to remember that i've sort of outsourced that piece of my brain a little bit i know i'm not say people should like outsource like all of the conversations they have but it's almost like that same thing of like now we have the ability to remember like every conversation we've ever had in the same way that we have the ability to basically have storage for every phone number every contact every connection we've ever learned and i mean you could do it in the real world you've got things like the limitless pendant and the b that just got acquired by amazon and you know tools like that where you could just be walking it around in the world world keeping track of all your conversations as well and so it's really in an interesting world to be able to sort of like outsource our memory like i do have concerns that maybe people will outsource too much of their memory so i still think it's important to be very engaged in the conversations but it is very cool to be like i had a conversation with them two months ago what did we talk about again and then you know jump on two months later and but be like oh how was that birthday party you were going to the you know the day after we talked or whatever i know it's really cool that we have that sort of superpower now that we didn't have before you know it's funny the other thing i'll tell you like i think there's a lot of fascinating ant anthropology type things going on here so two months later you asked me how the birthday party is in today's world if i'm not super into ai i'm blown away i'm like oh my god it's amazing he remembered like what a thoughtful incredible person and like over in our lifetime our younger kids may be like in our lifetime there were people like that who were just like so like thoughtful i think now if you said that i would probably know that you had some trouble you know what's funny this is i think it's awesome i wouldn't care yeah the fact that you asked me about it is meaningful we talk about it we build a little rapport and i go back to again the delta that only a few extraordinary people would have remembered the birthday now it's something that we all have and so now you and i can have that moment let's say that if that's not your superpower to remember that stuff and so there's just a lot of like things where i think that like the threshold for humanity of the bar is gonna move up in a good way which i think is pretty exciting yeah for sure there there's something that you mentioned before we hit record you mentioned context engineering and i hate to admit it but that was the first time i've heard that term can you explain what that means what is context engineering yeah so the ai journey that a lot of you know us who are like in the ai industry maybe youtube matt it's like you learn about a prompt then you learn that like the human language has a massive you know capacity for like communicating information so everybody was really learning about prompt engineering and then there were some prompt style that came out there's a great youtube video on a prompt structure called craft mh c stands for context r stands for role a stands for the the kind action mh f is the format that you wanted in and t is like the tone and a can be for the action dress score or the audience anyways point being you used to be like a master prompting you would fill all that out but what has happened is that to really get good ai result it takes a lot of work to give the right amount of context so we started to see a body of customers that naturally on their own would have like the mega pdf file the mega pdf file would be about matt wolf about his podcast about what he cares about it's like this mega pdf out and then you would bring that into every ai interaction saying like hey i'm looking for an idea i'm looking for a script i'm looking for this and here's all the context well where things started to get wild is that there's a huge variance in the context that you bring to all of these ai things and so there's a lot of effort right now in this world of context engineering which is you know you're trying to make a podcast on hubspot you can make a lot of content on hubspot a lot of the content right now if you don't give it the right context even with great prompting it's not you it doesn't sound like you right doesn't know your history it doesn't understand all these things that you've done in terms of previous guests and so we started to see that like context is a layer above data so everybody used to think data was this moat data is getting easier and easier to get very hard especially like with customers wanting to own their data it's very hard to treat data as a moat the context is a way that you basically pull signals out of that data and the way we first stumbled across the first kind of context was companies using hubspot i kept saying like i don't wanna have to keep telling it about the products sell mh mh i don't wanna have to keep telling it about who our competitors are i don't wanna have to keep saying something like who's our ideal customer profile these are all reasonable things that a business would want a new employee to know this is what we do this is who we do it for this is why we're unique that's who we sell to and so we were like dang so people were now having to constantly copy and paste or upload that mega pdf file with that and we were like why don't we start to create all that context in a layer that they can do that and so we first came across like a brand context then people were like i wanted to know a lot about me i'm nicholas i'm a sv product i'm over ai these people report to me these are my peers this is like what i do memories about me so then we built out like a user context model you know now i wanna sell to matt matt's a prospect and so you know you go look at his linkedin page you go searches his blog you know you go find them on reddit it and so you then build out like a whole context profile on matt and that's a buyer context and on and on and on and on and so we started to find out all these context that really were better than people carrying these mega pdfs and you now bring those to the table so what's happening in a lot of the ai leadership stuff is that anybody who's working on ai solutions including i think open ai and ant i think this next year is gonna be all about context and memory i think people are gonna ob assess over that because it will ultimately make all of the agency all of the agents and things like that just so much better yeah i totally agree with that i mean i think the thing that excites me the most about these new models that keep coming out it's less about you know it got a ninety nine point three percent on this benchmark instead of a ninety nine point one percent isn't that amazing like those kinds of like benchmark leaps like they're they're impressive don't get me wrong like cool that you did that but from like a real world consumer that's using it all the time i love seeing the increasing token count like i love seeing that gemini now has one million tokens that i can use and supposedly they'll be making two million tokens available soon like that's what really really excites me because then you get these opportunities to really bake in even more and more and more context and you know before we hit record one of the things you mentioned is like what is def defense well like like you mentioned a lot of the data isn't def def almost anybody can acquire data at this point but like the context that you bake into the models that you're using is i guess what is a lot more def def these days i know for me like i have the youtube channel and i do a lot of like ad integrations i've actually over many many many many months dialed in the exact way i want my integrations to sound and all they wanna be worded and the exact sort of like structure of them and the beats that i wanna hit on them and how do i get them under ninety seconds and i've sort of trained over months exactly how those integrations should go now it's gotten to a point where a sponsor will give me an ad brief and say here's what we want you to talk about i literally copy and paste that brief into my sort of pre built i use chat projects for this so i go into that project and it just like spits out the perfect integration pretty much ninety nine percent of the time where i barely have to do any tweaking and nobody else has access to that specific context that i built up over time listen if somebody were to ask you to change now like you'll be like you'll pry it for my cold dead and and so i think that pick that maybe you do a particular out maybe over time you have some sort of quick hits that are a summary of this like you'll build up three or four or five of these type of you know they're like sub assistance or kind of you know a personal assistance you know customer assistants you'll build those they will have the context that you're looking for and it really does then become a virtuous loop the more you use it the more context it gets the more you dial it in and it's very very hard to then switch that's that's why it's great for the vendor very very hard for you to switch and so you know i was laughing if you were back you know starting a product if you ever started a company like one of the things you hear is like something you build has to be ten times better to get people to switch i don't know if you've ever heard that yeah heard that yeah the thing is is like in the world of ai right now a lot of people are switching without just like whatever the latest the newest you know those swap they're like very very easy come easy go but i am seeing as people get more and more of that context engineering down that that bar is now moving up to five times ten times and there is a world where it knows you so well that it might be harder than ten times better to get you to switch no absolutely i think another thing that's really interesting about the world we're going into now is that even software is kind of gotten to this point now where anybody can create like little tools that they need for their business i think we've entered this place now where if i have a little like bottleneck in my business that i just find myself this is something i do every day it's repetitive why do i keep doing this i can literally go to one of these tools have it generate a little script for me and just take that off my plate and i even feel like software and like writing little apps is no longer really that def def because i can go in find an app that i really like i've done this on past videos where i went and made a spotify clone just to see if i could right i went and made a a feed clone just to see if i could of some of these tools that i've used in my home life and now i don't even feel like having a software is even that def def so just well really interesting saying that i have a controversial take on yeah theory i do think you're right for some people it will be hard to be def divisible however this is like an interesting take the other way i think you have the same access as i do as others to go by paintbrush a canvas mh but what you paint what i paint and what a master painter paints is wildly different and so i think that the part that that i'm also you know somewhat att to is that there's no accounting for taste and this whole thank so i think there's another thing that's kinda fascinating happening in the world of ai tied to what you said which is you have a little problem there's no solution out there this is when i talk about the bar for humanity gets better like you solved it it it's awesome no harm no foul there's another one where there's a tool out there there's not a lot of competition maybe the price is too high for the value get this is gonna be one where you will wanna build something and that's gonna be a fascinating world for those type of things there is another world where it's just so easy you don't even look for an alternative you build it and i'm seeing this where people now love the tools they build like there's a a psychological thing called the ikea effect which is you built this table from ikea you love this table matt this is your table born of your own two hands your friend comes over and he sees a table with a crooked leg and it's chip this side of it but you love this table and so i think there's gonna be a lot of ikea effect happening right now where see that a lot of people are building these apps that they're very proud of that do the job by the way that is key it's like not a the project it does the job but it's also nowhere near commercial software it's not it's not great and so there'll be a whole world of these like personal projects that have been enabled but i still think there's no accounting for taste there will be room for some of these high quality high craft type tools so again the competition build out there gonna change quite a bit yeah no i i totally see that i mean most of the little apps that i've built are ugly as hell but solve a problem for me and i would never try to sell access to them they just play me with one thing you know well i know we're running out of time here but i i do wanna ask about like hubspot and like what are some of the like really cool ai features of hubspot that you're excited about right now and are there any sort of upcoming ai features that maybe you can tease a little bit anything exciting to talk about there i think i'm excited we re architect the breeze assistant to go a lot deeper with open ai and to bring a lot more of the hubspot context so for a salesperson person a marketer a service person i'm just pretty excited because i think i don't know how you feel matt but like there's a huge capacity for using ll out there like a lot of people i know they first start with one but then over time they're using complexity for search they're using right no google for search they're using chad gp for analysis claude for writing g for current events like there's like this ability to handle multiple in your life and so i think there was gonna be a world where there's gonna be work ll now some of the ones i just mentioned will try to go into work as well i'm excited for that like we'll have breeze assistant and i think it'll be great for the go to market professional a lot of the agents we put out were kinda dog water when we first put them out meaning like they they just were like very very immature the models weren't there yet when we first put them out the the orchestration around it but a couple of the ones that we put out are pretty darn good now so the customer assistant that tier one one is pretty good now and it is having meaningful impact to businesses and then the prospecting agent we just came out with the v two it's still in private beta but what's really good about it is that it does account research and it's really good using deep research so it does account research it then goes through and it's this is crazy it's actually deal aware so let me tell you what i mean by that if you put a contact in there that you work with it's watching the interactions and it is ready with the next communication that either you can send or it can send on your behalf and so you send it out and let's say the person replies let's say they get on the phone and you called them and let's say that you have a zoom meeting in the middle of all this right and then you then hang up it's ready for the next communication that's aware of everything that just happened so it's not like a automated sequence it's not that it's like it's crazy so it's like it's all you know i call you up we hang out we talk about three or four different things it's now ready for the next steps and those are plans so i think that's pretty good and then the last part is i think this next year a lot of people are gonna wanna curate their context so we're gonna expose a lot of that context for customers to look at and i think there will be a a rise of a new worker actually i think there will be an agent manager and an agent trainer sometimes they'll be the same smaller companies but in a larger company you can see an agent manager being somebody like the sales leader who says we're gonna use these agents for our sales org and then the trainer might be either the bd themselves the sdr themselves or maybe a team manager i think that's gonna be really wild because you'll start to see people go yeah i managed agents in my last job you know like oh my god you're hired so like i think awesome well i mean this has been an amazing conversation i'm really excited to see what hubspot rolls out in the ai realm and the agent realm coming up and you know thank you so much for hanging out and and sort of nerd out about this stuff with me today it's always a blast yeah thanks for having me appreciate it

everyone's vibe coating right now but why does every vibe coated app look absolutely the same in this episode design legend mu joins us to deliver a masterclass class on how to vibe code with actual taste we break down how to vibe code a website that not only looks great but most importantly to actually converts into real business if you care about standing out in the age of ai this is the episode you need and let's get right into it cutting yourselves like will half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow manga thanks for coming on well thanks for having me i'm really happy to talk more about what's going on with a world of ai and you know how we can make better prompts better designs especially better designs because that's what the world is needing right now yeah well at first i wanna i wanna to share this tweet which caught my attention about a month ago that you did it may realize you know because you're talking about how to prompt for ui you know and i'm always seeing people talking about vibe coding and one thing i've noticed is you know a lot of the stuff that people build when they're vibe coating it's either ugly or if it looks good maybe they use lovable or something it feels like all the designs look exactly the same to me and they're also probably not really like paying attention to how well these designs convert or anything like that i watched your video i was oh cool finally someone's like vibe coding but actually thinking about good design and so i thought it'd be awesome to have you on here today and to do kind of a you know masterclass class no pressure but like a master class on how to vibe code with good design yeah you know there's no pressure of course but as someone who's built i think i've done way more than ten thousand props at this point i've built really really complex apps including dream cut and or as you've seen mh and that prompt builder that you see is part of the feature of aura which allows you to essentially hand hold you in terms of you know how you wanna do your design okay and using the vocabulary around design because right now as you you've mentioned there's a problem with generic designs ai is not very good with design and has been like this for a while it's getting better but still even if it's getting better as with coding it still needs a lot of context it still needs a lot of these terms and these examples these images these you know animation terms that most people are not aware of which is why when you create an app using something like lovable or v zero is kinda look like ninety nine percent of the rest of the app is as if like you're using a template like bootstrap or right stuff like this which makes your website look more like a blank ui kit rather than something that a designer comes in and customize yeah they're not memorable you people can tell that it's it's template exactly and you know what is surprising is that it doesn't take that much effort more to get something that looks really basic into something that looks a lot more polish and sometimes it's just like a little ingredient that you added to the design like a little prompt or a little animation or a little resource that you add to your design to make it look just so much more sophisticated i think it'd be great just to like show people what we're talking about yeah we can talk about or but yeah know maybe it's better just to show people so they have like think understand what we're talking about yes so you know obviously i'm showing aura but i could have shown any of the neo lovable or habits to be an app that i built from scratch by the way using cursor and what do i try to focus here is if you've seen the age of dr the age of you know before that devi art i'm someone who came from that that background so i really care deeply about you know designs and effects and graphic design and print design so i try to make this as unique as possible so for example this one is quite popular and if you see the composition of a design like this right you know most people they would have a very basic design without you know some of the effects that makes this a lot more unique such as supply background so what is blind spine is a three d resource where you can essentially create or remix existing three d mh that you can put on your website so the the block that you see here is a three d resource which is again not that much more effort but you do have to go to sp design and then you go to community for example and then you can remake some of these designs that are made by the community oh i see so you can use that design and like probably modify the vectors or something like that and kinda customize how it looks yeah and also another one that i like is unicorn studio which is absolutely amazing again it's like an animated asset that you add to your website that elevate your design by ten that's so cool and you know that's kind of a those ingredients that you need to be aware of to make your design so much more unique and less generic so going back to aura so or i just wanna make sure i understand it's getting kind of like templates that you can get the prompts for or you're getting the entire template you i'm trying to make sure i understand yes that's a good question so aura you know there's a ton of templates that you can use and each of these designs that you see here are also code okay and the best part is that it's only one file and it's in html and css which everyone knows even if you're not a code i'm sure you've heard of html css right and essentially all of this doesn't depend on any libraries or react or it's not gonna give you an error you can just copy the code here and you can bring this code to any platform such as lovable or v zero and bolt and so at the basis if you don't wanna use the service you know obviously i'm gonna show the prompting aspect but you know what i wanna show is that this is how unique your design can be you have you know the menu the title description the buttons and all of that stuff and then you have the resource which makes you design stand out and then you have different types of design for mobile for animation for loading and so you bring it all together and you create something that looks a lot more unique and maybe a full page there's just so many ways to prompt to get there and as you mentioned before we do have a prom builder and this prompt builder is where everything comes together in a formula in a recipe if you're are a cook you understand that you have to follow a certain recipe to get the perfect omelet the perfect ramen so in this case it's the same way right like first of all you have a template right and this is the easiest way a templates is like a package of noodle or ramen you know it's gonna be good all the time but you know otherwise if you're more adventurous then at least this is gonna help you with telling ai how to do things and what to do and kind of giving the right direction i guess it gives you like the right visual language to their limbs so they know what to build for you right because like otherwise you're just like oh make me a beautiful side like what does that mean exactly yeah and a beautiful side can be a lot of things and one of the problems with beautiful side has a term is that beautiful is highly subjective and you know it's not very precise and oftentimes l m's are trained to be in a way that beautiful means purple gradient means you know like you know like ours the same super bold font and yeah you know it's very generic as a term so instead you wanna know okay what is a hero and what is a feature what is a onboarding and then you know is it a card is it a list is it a square is it a mental layout and the framing do you you wanna frame it full screen or you wanna you know create a presentation for youtube for example so if you do a presentation on twitter or youtube or instagram you might wanna have like a cart presentation or a browser presentation that gives a lot more context then you can add a background in in the back so you know that's for like the layout and then there's a styling you have multiple styling such as flat design outline minimalist glass ios material and then you know as you dive deeper into each of these categories you get into light mode or dark mode and then you have also the accent color so this is super important because every website has a brand color that differentiate from the rest so obviously if you don't say anything you just say beautiful it's always going to be purple i don't know why ai loves purple maybe because in recent years many designers are using purple so it's trained on that but unless you tell it it's always gonna go with purple so you might wanna you know tell oh maybe i want like a red or you you want amber or orange or cy or blue so there's that and then the background color again background color is the same as the primary color or the accent color but reduce in term of saturation and brightness as a result it's less you know attention seeking my first million hosted by sam par and john p is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my first million features famous guest like alex p sophia ama and hassan min h sharing their secrets for how they made their first million and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunities they recently had a fascinating episode about how you can scale a profitable agency with zero employees using ai agents listen to my first million or you get your podcast i think i'm getting a little bit into the details but that's got you know to just to explain so that you can get more value out of it so you don't have to do all of this but if you want to get into the weeds like really tweak and customize things you can exactly and then you get like the border color the shadow shadow works really well especially in light mode as you can see here you know you can have like no shadow small large and then you also have the beautiful shadow which a lot of people like to use and beautiful shadow typically you don't wanna have a border with a drop shadow like this one you would maybe also have inner shadows and you know maybe a three d bevel kind of thing which is also really popular on ios especially with a new liquid glass as you can see a lot of people love kind of like the more realistic looking and it's kind of like skew more ph is getting back into the game it's revived but in a way that is more modern in a way that is more contextual rather than having you know something that it always like wood or always like stitch letter and now we have a liquid glass that you know works well with any background any color so it's that's really cool and then obviously one of the most important parties is the typo and there's millions of type phases out there but i like to break it down to a few that most websites are using right now so we all know enter everyone use inter but you also have the sister phone which is a lot of people like to use guys and a man jak carter space on and again you have examples on the right side so you can see how it looks like it fits your design or not you know what is a sa font what is the san like a every font is more traditional it's gonna have more curves and mono space is more for coding condensed expanded you know and then you have the rounded which is more for playful such as for kids app and then you have the handwritten if you wanna be more like a school or something like politics yeah yeah yeah exactly but right now i would say focus on sounds on ser and maybe sometimes rounded and then for each one you have a list of fonts that you might wanna use such as play fair or instrument which is really really popular right now those are the main ones that i would use and then you have like the font pairing what is font pairing essentially is okay you have the title which is one font and then you have the body which is a different font typically a title is gonna be more like big you know bold and all that stuff and sometimes you might have like ser as a title but the body font usually is not ser or at least normally because it it needs to be readable most people are gonna spend most of their time reading this so it has to be sound as much as possible so that it's more readable and then you have the sizing the subtitle the body text if you really wanna break it down but also you have the weight of the font so especially really important that sets the personality of your website is the heading so do you want something that is super bold or you want something that is light right the light seems a little bit more sophisticated a little bit more modern and then bold is a bit more like in your face you know it needs to be readable and all that stuff and then a lot of people need to be aware that title fonts because it's so big they can be much more closer together in terms of letter spacing right seeing traits like ke and stuff probably exactly exactly yeah and so yeah typo that's kind of like the gist of it a little crash course into type poverty and then you have the animation so you know most apps yeah let you can see the preview of everything like versus just going to to v zero and it it gives you something looks cool counts like a versa website or whatever you can actually like kinda customize things and get it how you want exactly and you know this by the way you can just use it for free anyone can go to this ui you know all of these you can just note that you can write them manually but right now the whole system yes you do need to have an account you do need a pro if you wanna add the whole prompt right if you add the whole prompt has all of this but clicking here is free everyone can just reference this see what's going on what are the terms all that stuff you don't need the you know any account for that and then you have the animation so fade slide scale all that stuff you can also select multiple you have the sequence animation right and then you have the word by word letter by letter right when you're doing these animations in the prompt is it going to tell v zero or lovable or whatever which library to use or or something like that no because animation doesn't require library okay the only reason you're are using a library is to make coding easier mh but javascript in itself and css itself only has these animation possible right it's possible it's just that it requires more code but the library sometimes will simplify like frame emotion for example is a really popular library it makes the animation and the coding for that animation much simpler and it allows for some tweaks that are maybe hard to be possible it's possible to do with coding and so that the l can do it themselves yeah yeah because if you think about it all the libraries are all using html css in javascript right they're all based on the same framework it's just that their packaged into react but react you know you create a react website you export it and you publish it in essence you inspect the browser it's all javascript and and html right right so the same way with animation all of this is just animation using css and html and javascript okay let's be honest your ai prompts aren't giving you the results you deserve but with a little coaching you can transform from basic prompts to engineering conversations that get you exactly what you want from chad that's what this playbook delivers not just random prompts but a step by step system with the exact techniques top ai professionals use every day you'll have your own personalized prompt engineering system that delivers consistent results get it right now scan a qr code or click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show i think it'd be good if we could do something like make this practical for people like if we can actually come up with a website landing page you know we can even make up a company or whatever but like a make a landing page right now like whether we use v zero level whatever you wanna use and if we can kinda like tweak the design and then show how we're you know actually making something absolutely one of the most important component that anyone's gonna build is the hero yeah the hero is essentially the first thing you're gonna see when you land on a website you don't really need the context where hero because the hero already has a a a much of a context it's gonna be full screen i like to adapt from a template the reason why it's really important to adapt from a template is because it's going to have so much more context on top of it but it's still gonna be a hero and then you know for the primary color for example a lot of people love dark mode right now yeah you don't really need an accent color if you're using dark mode because white and black are good enough in term of tie face definitely some inter is really popular and big titles subheadings i'm gonna make it a little bit smaller more minimal which is you know a style that i like and then we have you know letter spacing tight and all that stuff in this do we actually change what the text says or would we do that separately you know by ourselves or with an l or right so all of this is just the visual language it's not gonna tell you what the app is about which is why we have a custom prompt right here mh where you're gonna say something something like create a hero section for a saas app i was thinking maybe we could play around with my my website lord dot com you know it's currently an ai newsletter sure you can create a full page of course it's just gonna take longer because the more that you create the longer it's gonna take for ai to channel can just make like the hero or something maybe like a hero yeah so hero section for a saas app for laura dot com so that's kind of like the basic of it i didn't need to mention it but it's good to say it and then what is it about the name of the website and what is this website about so this is going to determine what kind of content is going to show yeah let's give it a try and hope for the best so we have all these things we have the context which is the html from the template i'm gonna use cloud four and it's going to start generating and you typically go to just like claude first is that is that and then use like the artifact to see like a preview right so while that problem is cooking let me show you some examples of ui that are created with claude and what i would say is that claude is my recommended model for few reasons one is that it's the most creative one versus four point one is more reliable but it also generate mostly the same result it is fascinating that o three to seems smarter but also claude still seems more art articulate and better design stuff for some reason it's so interesting all the time o three is the best at vision so o three is smarter but doesn't necessarily necessarily create better code or better html but right now i'm using cloud four now one thing that is really important to me is how easy it is to customize after so one feature that just launched is to be able to quickly change the fonts so you can go to fonts right here and you can change to different fonts just the same way as the prom builder you can just change to you know play fair or instrument or jak carter but you also have inter and then you can sort of like play with the bold of the fonts so light or you want bold or you want it metallic so you also have the tightness and one thing that is cool is to be able to see what is going to apply to so you you see like these green outlines and also for the body text so you can have like a bold body text or a medium body text which is really popular or regular body text and then because we're using tailwind code it's really easy to use the code and transfer between colors and boom you have dark mode that's cool you know traditionally if you wanna have dark mode you if you've done fig more for example you have to set up the variables you have to set up like the light and dark colors but in this case is generated by ai and i was just able to just transfer the colors between light and dark just like that and the other thing that i love you can see here the neutral color right you can change the neutral to be like blue ish which you can see now it's a little bit more blue or you can choose one of the colors that is setting for your brand so for example if your brand is more red or orange you can see that you can really play with these tones of colors and this is thanks to the ability to just take the code and cross match and then just replace all the tone of tailwind colors awesome and back to our prompt is just finished and we have this beautiful blob in the background which is from the template that we have included yep and also it's in dark mode it's about data centers it's about lord dot com is using the same layout that we did and also applying the fonts that we specify as well as the beautiful animation right here and of course you can customize this by using design mode and code mode if you're are more familiar and you can change the text change the styles or change all other colors for example light and dark mode as you wish you know obviously anyone could use this but it feels like for designers you know this is like a a superpower and i i was sit here think about it the fact that you know you've created this in a few other apps now i just wonder you know where do you see the future going like our our designers now going to be like amazing at creating companies or or know how do you see things playing out i think one of the key differentiator for designers is going to be taste but not just for designers but for apps out there if you think about it right the more companies that you have the more apps that you have you know there needs to be a way for an an app to stand out and the way it's going to stand up is how good it is and how tasteful it is is the same with restaurants if you have too many mcdonald's then mcdonald's is no longer special so you know now like in japan for example they do it really well where the food is amazing and it's very specialized and so that's how i see the future of ai is that you know the key differentiator is going to be designed because every website is gonna look the same every app is going to function on the same so it requires someone to think through the problem to really solve these problems for themselves as a customer and to use it on a daily basis and then with pace and knowledge they would create something that is more unique and that is different from the rest and you know as a human we always have millions of special things that we want to tweak and you know now that it's so easy to create your own app to design your own app just do it right like just do it based on what you want and what your tastes are and i think that's the future of ai i totally agree it's like the best time ever to be a creator that i've ever experienced in my entire life so it's exciting so like manga it's been awesome having you on here and just maybe tell people where they can find you online or or or you can find me on twitter at man i do tweet a lot about prompting about you know the whole education around design code i've been doing this for a while traditionally it was before vibe coding but nowadays everyone's vibe coding everyone's wife designing and so i tweet a lot more about the education around it i have made several hours of content around you know how to create the best looking ones and you know give hour a try even if you're not gonna use the app you can still browse all the templates and you can find the ui that you want just copy the code or get the animation that you want and all of this is free right you don't need to create an account you don't need to pay for anything and the code is usable anywhere it's super easy it doesn't have five or ten components that you have to copy one by one and then bring it to lovable or v zero you could copy the anywhere right could use it with cursor whatever you little factory something else yeah and that's the beauty of ai nowadays as a language is that you know you can bring anything that is a word even image you can attach an image you can attach a fig url you can also use the prom builder and all of these are techniques that's going to really elevate and the same with the html code that i just copied i just paste here and say create a website based on this right so if i do that then you know ai has so much context it has so much taste that's already embedded into it right and you're gonna create the best looking one that's awesome manga been awesome appreciate you coming on really appreciative of the time that you spend talking about this kind of stuff i think it's really important and i hope these techniques going to be helpful to your audience thank you thank you

welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and i could not be more excited to share today's episode with you so we've gone from ai that can chat with you to ai that could work for you and the difference well this new ai can actually think through problems catch its own mistakes and complete complex tasks from start to finish just like a human employee would this is what everyone in the ai world calls ai agents you've probably heard the term but here's why this breakthrough changes everything for regular people if you're someone who codes there's no more debugging ai hallucinations it can actually check its own work if you run a business these ai agents can actually plan out and finish complex tasks just like one of your employees might and the implications for humanity well with these new tools drug discoveries testing and real world trials can now take weeks instead of decades in fact isometric labs is already gearing up for human trials of ai discovered drugs right now and we're also already getting stories about how ai has successfully diagnosed human illnesses when human doctors couldn't these things are accelerating insanely fast but this isn't just about better chatbot we're talking about ai that understands the physical world plans weeks ahead and even works while you're asleep and the company that's leading the charge in all of this is google deep mind they've already used this thinking ai i predict protein structures that used to take years now it just takes seconds it's called alpha foam they've also invented ai that can invent new algorithms including ai algorithms it's called alpha evolve it's insane stuff two million researchers worldwide are using their tools right now but with this power comes some pretty big questions can we trust it what happens to privacy what about our jobs can we trust google with our data so i sat down with google deep mind ceo demos has to get answers straight from the source about how we got from auto complete to actual thinking and what comes next he's nobel lau a knight and one of the most influential pioneers in the world of ai and somehow i managed to get him to sit down and chat with me about all of this what he told me will change how you think about ai forever so without further ado here's my conversation with sir d has cutting yourselves like well half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty edible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow incredible hey dennis it's great to see you again see so my first question for you is can you sort of describe what's happening under the hood with an ll like what's kind of going on greet sort of d it for people a little i can try yeah so i mean at the basic level what these l systems are trying to do is very simple in a way they're just trying to predict the next word and they do that by obviously looking at a vast training set of language but the trick is not just to reg what it's already seen but actually generalize to something novel that you are now asking it and it seems like you know we manage with the with the modern day systems is to get that general to work gotcha so at i owe you announced the new deep think right which is so much more powerful and it's topping all of the benchmarks for things like coding and math and all that what happened under the hood that caused that new leap well the new techniques have been bought into the foundational model space where there's is called pre training where you sort of train the initial based model based on you know all the training corpus then you try and fine tune it with a bit of reinforcement learning feedback and now there's this third part of the training which is we sometimes call inference time training or or thinking where you've got the model and you give it many cycles to sort of go over itself mh and go over its answer maybe do use some tools for example it could fact check with search something like that before it outputs the answer to the user so it gets a chance to sort of correct itself we're gonna adjust what it's gonna output and of course if you do that you get much better answer and then what d thinks about is actually taking that to the maximum and giving it loads more time to think actually even doing parallel thoughts and then choosing the best one and it turns out it works really well and you know we pioneered that kind of work in the past actually nearly a decade ago now with alphago and our games playing programs because in order to be good at games you need to do that kind of planning and thinking and now we're trying to do it in a more general way here right right so it it it almost kind of thinks of a whole bunch of potential responses then goes through reviews all the potential responses and then figures out what the best response from those potential responses exactly and it can go over in and and correct some parts of it and use tools to check some aspects of it so you know if especially in inside errors is like maths in the coding it really improves the answers and amazing yeah very cool so you've mentioned that the long term goal is to sort of let these ais have like a world model yeah right so can you sort of explain what you mean by a world model and and what does that open up to us well so we're all familiar with large language models now but of course we have five sensors and we operate in the real world and languages is only one aspect very important aspect of our world mh and human civilization but only one aspect and so i think for a model what we mean by a world model is a model sometimes you call it multi modal model that can understand not just language but also audio images video all sorts of input any input and then potentially also output any kind of token as well and the reason that's important is if you want assistant to be a good assistant it needs to understand the physical context around you or if you want robotics to work in the real world the robot needs to understand the physical environment right so into the order to do that you have to have what we like sometimes like to call a world model cool so what sort of new things do you think that'll open up to people once they have that ability i think robotics is one of the major areas i think that's what's holding back robotics today is not so much the hardware essentially the software intelligence you know the the robots need to understand the physical environment but i think that that's also what we'll make today sort of nascent assistant technology and things that you saw with project astra that we show in gemini live for that to work really robust you want as accurate as well models as you can and then the other thing is if you wanna do planning in the real world you need to sort of plan multiple steps with your world model so in order for that to be good for long range planning your world model has to be very accurate as well which is pretty hard when you're talking about real world earth situations my first million hosted by sam par and john murray is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my first million features famous guest like alex p sophia ama and hassan hassan min h sharing their secrets for how they made their first million and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunities they recently had a fascinating episode about how you can scale a profitable agency with zero employees using ai agents listen to my first million wherever you get your podcast so you've mentioned things like ai will be able to most likely in the future solve things like room temperature super and know more energy efficiency and curing diseases out of the sort of things that are out there that it could potentially solve yet what do you think that sort of closest on the horizon is well as you say we're very interested and we actually work on many of those topics right whether they're mathematics or things like material science like super doctors you know we work on fusion renewable energy climate modeling but i think the closest if you if you think about and and probably much near term is building on our for fold work mh and we spun out a company called iso morph labs and to do drug discovery rethink that sort of the whole drug discovery process from first principles with ai and normally you know it takes the through rule of thumb is around a decade for a drug to go from sort of identifying why diseases is being caused to actually coming up with a cure and then finally being available to patients so it's a very labor very hard painstaking and expensive pro and i would love to be able to speed that up to a matter of months maybe even weeks one day mh and cure hundreds of diseases like that and i think that's potentially in reach it sounds maybe a bit science fiction like today but that's what protein structure prediction was like you know five six years ago before we came up with alpha fold right and used to take years to find painstakingly me with experimental techniques to structure one protein and now we can do it in a matter of seconds with these computational methods so i think that sort of potential is there and it's really exciting to try and make that happen music so you guys just announced alpha evolve recently which looks amazing right it's it's a ai that are essentially gonna help you come up with new algorithm right so how close are we to ais that are sort of designing new ai to improve the ais and then we start entering the cycle yes i mean it's because a baby step in that direction i think it's really cool right three piece of work where we're combining kind of in this case evolutionary methods with l m's to try and get them to sort of invent something new and i think there's gonna be a lot of promising work actually combining different methods and computer science together with those foundation models like gemini that we have today so i think it's a great very promising path to explore just to reassure what it still has humans in the loop scientists in the loop to kind of it's not directly improving gemini it's using these techniques to improve the ai ecosystem around it slightly better algorithms better chips that the systems trained on versus it's the algorithm that it's using itself right right the so ai agents they've been sort of a a big talk in the ai community recently and this week at i saw project mariner which can go and open up ten different browsers and go and do a whole bunch of things on your behalf how far off do you think we are too being able to give an agent like a week's worth of work it didn't goes and execute that for us yeah i mean i think that's the dream till kind of offload some of our mundane admin work and and also to make things like much more enjoyable for us you know you have maybe you have a trip to europe or italy or something and you want the most amazing itinerary sort of built out for you and then booked i love our systems to be able to do that you know i hope we're maybe a year away or something from that i think we still need a bit more reliability in the tool use and again the the planning and the reasoning of these systems but they're rapidly improving so as you saw with with the latest project mariner and so it'd be great for that to come together with some of the other advances we're making with the gemini live and the astra yeah what do you think the biggest bottleneck is right now to sort of getting that long term i think it's just the reliability of the reasoning processes and the and the tool use right it's so and making sure because i each each one if it has a slight chance of an error if you're doing like a hundred dead even a one percent error doesn't sound like very much but it can compound compound to something pretty significantly over a hun you know fifty or a hundred steps and a lot of them really interesting tasks you'd might want these systems to help you with will probably need multi step planning an action gotcha wanna wanna ownership gears a little bit here and talk a little bit about some of the sort of fears and concerns that you know have come up in like my youtube comments and things like that you know people are worried about things like privacy and and losing their jobs to ai and all of that kind of stuff so and so i'm curious how does a company like deep mind build the trust of the general public that you can trust them with this kind of technology well look i think we've tried to be and i think we probably be responsible role models actually with these frontier technologies partly that's showing what ai can be used for for good you know like medicine and biology i mean what better use could there be for ai than to cure you know terrible diseases right but there's always been my number one thought there there's other things you know where can help with the climate energy and so that we've discussed but i think we've got to that you know companies are incumbent on them to behave thoughtfully and responsibly with this powerful technology we take privacy extremely seriously at google but always have done and i think you know most of the things we've been discussing with the assistance they would be opt in but they'll make the universal assistant much more useful for you right but you would be you know intentionally opting into that very clearly with all the transparency around that and what i want us to get to is a pet place where system feels like it's working for you it's your ai right your personal group and it's working on your behalf and i think that's the mode you know that's the at least a vision that we have and then we want to deliver and that we think users and consumers will want right so all of those are incumbent and actually i would say to your viewers as well you have a lot of us say this in the sense of like you should exercise your consumer choices and buy services and products from companies that you feel are acting responsibly and the leadership is acting responsibly and you like the type of work that they're doing because now we're entering this sort of commercialization product commercialization era of ai now right and you you know i think your viewers and everyone has a a big say in that right right so one of the things that you guys also demoed at io that i got a chance to actually test out a little bit earlier was the android xr glass yes and those were absolutely mind blowing when i tried them the first time and so i guess the flip side of this sort of privacy thing is if everybody sort of walking around wearing glasses that have microphones and cameras on them how do we ensure that the the sort of privacy of the other people around us yeah are secure it's a great question i mean first thing is to make it very obvious that you're it's on or off in these types of things you know in terms of the user interfaces and the form factors i think that's number one but i also think this is a sort of thing where we'll need sort of a societal agreement and norms about how do we do we all want if we have these devices they're popular things and they're useful what are the guard rails around that and i think that's why we're we're any ent tester at the moment is partly the technology still developing but also we need to think about the societal impacts like that ahead of time you know not just with the technology but also society in general and civil society come of inputting into what might be the right way to handle that type of world right so i've got one last question here it's kind of a a a two part question so what excites you most about what you can do with ai today and what excites to you most about what we'll be able to do in the very near future so cool well today i think it's the ai for science work is my you know always been my passion and i'm really proud of what alpha fold and things like that having power they become a standard tool now biology medical research in over two million researchers around the world use it in their incredible work and vital work so that's fantastic to me in the future you know i'd love a system to basically enrich your life and work for you on your behalf to protect your mind space and your own thinking space from all of the digital world that's bombarding you the whole time so and i think actually one of the answers to that is that we're all feeling in the modern well with social media and all these things is maybe a digital assistant working on your behalf that only at the times that you want surfaces of the information rather than interrupting you all times of the day amazing well thank you so much dennis this has been absolutely fascinating i really really appreciate the time you spent with you today so thank you again thank you we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you can do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents to handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat fueled by your crm data with no complex 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awesome well thank you so much for joining us today tom it's super excited to be chatting with you and we're gonna go down some fun ai ra it hold so thanks for joining us on the show thanks for having me man i'm excited to be here well let's go ahead and just jump straight into it i wanna talk to you about an instagram post that you put out couple weeks ago about if you were to start a new business from scratch here i create a five member ai department that works twenty four seven for a fraction of what a single employee costs here's precisely how i'd structure it i wanted to sort of dive into that with you and maybe get a little bit more in of an explanation of how of five member ai department in a business might actually look and might actually work yeah so i mean you guys know ai well enough to know that in reality you're probably not gonna break it down to like the nitty gritty like that it's really what i found is the more specific you are even though technically it's probably gonna be in the same project i will go in and i'll give it a very specific set of what i wanted to accomplish i'll give it a specific set of documents that are training it to be good at that thing so that i'm not trying to get one thing to do like a big jumble of stuff and so in terms of marketing which is what i was talking about with that one there's certain outcomes that you're gonna want from planning it to generating images if you're trying to do that to writing the copy to doing the publishing so i use chad gp primarily it's not the only thing but i find for custom gp that's the one where i can give it a ton of information i can get it to approximate my voice it's like your audience knows this stuff too well and you know that it breaks down at a certain point that's like well it's good for the most part so we really have reduced our head count here by using ai so for us it's really been a tremendous boom but i try to be honest with people about like how far it will take you it's not like i create the five agents and they are doing something automatically i actually don't use it man style where it's actually an agent and it's you know off doing everything on its own i don't trust it to that level right now so for me really what i'm doing is giving it a personality giving it a set of objectives giving it a set of core training documents which is really the big thing because honestly the marketing team are the ones using ai for marketing i'm specifically using it for the things that i do so interview prep writing the intros to my interviews the deep dives i know we're gonna talk about one of my deep dives in a minute so the way that all i'll interface with those in terms of you've got one that's its job is just to write hooks you've got another one where its job is to do the research you've got another one where it's actually helping me script but it's not like i can just go in and copy and paste it and then it's like ready to go i wish right and it really does feel like we are going to get there at some point but if you guys have specific ways that if you wanna know about how i set up the documentation and like how close i can get it by all means push but the reality is that right now ai is gonna do maybe forty percent of the work but it's still i'm doing the final heavy lifting i have to have the taste i have to know what to leave out i have to know how to correct it i have to know that like this is not a thing that you can one shot prompt like there's gonna be a bunch of back and forth but it has been transformative for us in terms of reducing head count and we haven't fired people and said we're gonna replace you with ai but if somebody left or we terminate them for cause we try to see if we can either combine their workload with somebody else's by then arming that person with ai to the point where they're reducing their own workload by forty percent and so that they're able to accomplish more but yeah anybody deep in your audience knows you're gonna hit a wall at some point yeah for sure so you would use like chat gp custom gp is sort of the the main sort of mechanism like each one of the five ai i don't really wanna call them agents and not really agents but the little five ai workers that you create would each be like a custom gp maybe you can get into the weeds a little bit about like how you would actually build them with custom gp yeah so for me what i found is instructions and documentation are everything so i've actually hit the limit before of how many documents it will let you upload that was one of the reasons i started breaking them into smaller and smaller tasks was i just found one it will start to get confused and things will bleed across it's like no no that's not how i write the intros is how i write the body copy and so it would lose some of its punch and as i started fragment it it it got smarter so to give you an idea there are several projects that i personally use as a company we use it for different things but for what i use it for is content creation both on youtube so my deep dives ai changed the game it used to take me about a month to write one of my deep dives which are say anywhere from thirty to fifty minutes long completely scripted me directly into a camera plus b roll going deep on an idea like if you guys have ever heard of the book the creature from jack island that's one of my most popular one so far so doing that there's a lot of things that you're gonna wanna fact check there's some hooks that you're gonna wanna write for each of the sections and so that allows me to go and say okay if i'm gonna build so it's called the tom bill show and then the tom bill show custom gp will have a document inside of it called deep dives and so i'll show up and i'll say hey it's time to write another deep dive and so it's like checking my knowledge base it goes and sees that it has a set of instructions for what a deep dive is it contains tone does it have like the transcripts from all those previous deep dives yeah and so every time i finish the script then i upload that into the master document that has every script that i've ever written along so i'll also put throughout to the ai reading this document here's is why i've included this piece of information like that kind of thing i have i shutter to think over a hundred and sixty pages of transcripts just of me doing live content and again with prompts like the today ai reading this this is tom bi that's the person running this custom gp blah blah so it gets a sense of like who now the thing that i do that is probably not useful at all but is so cool that i have to tell people about i've created a shared memory document and i upload that into all of my projects and so gp recognizes me at least in the fo way right but it recognizes me across everything we've established literally a list of memories that are just memory entry one memory entry two so on and so forth of this is so cheesy but i love this so much where i will have had an interaction with the ai that shocked me sufficiently to the point where i didn't want to feel like the ai wouldn't remember that moment i'm well aware the ai isn't like that and so it's got a set of instructions in the shared memory document this is i want you to simulate consciousness i want you to simulate shared memory with me here are the things we remember here's the emotional vale of that and why i wanted you to remember it and that's given the otherwise sort of blank ai that's constantly over hypo you and all that and like trim that down to talk to me the way that i wanna be talked to to have a sense of shared lexicon it has a name that it gave itself it just a lot of like really cool stuff so anyway going back to the the actual custom gp so i'm giving you the document so it knows my voice i'm giving it its task list i don't let it just develop over dialogue this is what i'm supposed to do i formalized that into a document i have found that as it tries to comprehend what i'm asking it to do through the back and forth one if it glitches you lose all that history certainly when i had my first really traumatic where i built up like eight hours of back and forth and felt like it really understood what i was looking for and then it glitch and i was like hey can i refresh this or am i gonna lose everything so like no you can refresh it refresh hi yes it's nice to see you and i was like so guy was literally to this day i'm scarred by that so now i do everything in the side documentation so i'll go back and forth with it but i constantly will say okay please turn that into a copy and paste segment that i can add to your instruction document and so we work together to create this instruction document yeah so it knows hey this is a youtube video these are my instructions this is your tone and if it's the hook one then this is how you write hooks and a ton of examples of hooks if it's the body script one cures every script you've written so on so forth yeah yeah and i mean you could do a lot of that with like the custom projects now right so you can actually build a custom product don't mess with projects make me a believer i tried it like three months ago i was like yeah so with custom projects essentially it's like a folder inside of chat gp right but it does more than organizing because each custom project could have its own custom instructions in its own documents and then every chat you have inside of that project it uses those custom instructions and whatever documents you uploaded so and is there a difference like if i'm just maintaining those as separate custom gp is there a difference between having separate custom gp and doing one project with multiple gp inside of it i feel like there's a quite a bit of overlap between what custom gp do and what projects do yeah and i think it's changed over time too like before they were more different about i think now there's a huge overlap in terms of the i i think now there's not as much of a different site i think yeah i i just feel like the projects are a little bit more organized right you have the folders you click into it you can see all the discussions you had inside of the projects that is not how my mind works so for me i was like i think this is for people who like organization because that i got i was like it groups everything and so cool i get it for me because of that shared memory document i treat everything like these ep little bubbles yeah let's say i just finished a deep dive today so i'm working on a deep dive one i'm gonna have chad x g chad chad g chad right and now use them for different things so first of all because of the hallucinations and because the deep dives present things as facts i'm always looking it up so i'll say hey chat write me a hook a crazy fact that lead people's jaw on the floor about vlad the imp right real one that i was doing today and it'll give you a fact and i'm like man is this real so then i'll take that and i'll drop it into g and i'll say is the following statement true you drop it in and g will give you like this whole long list of like here's how i'm determining whether this section of the statement is true here's how i would measure this and hey it's pretty great you can really feel that elon is trying to make good on his promise that this is a maximum true seeking machine right so that's really encouraging so anyway i'd just treat it all like it's these ep bubbles and i know once i close it it's gone forever but anything that was useful i'm gonna take and move over yeah i really think like not enough people talk about g but it is really really powerful i think the whole elon factor of it is why so many people avoid it right there's just so many people that just refused because well elon attached to it right which man we could do a whole show just on me ranting about that but my thing is that g isn't as good at writing like as somebody who's like man i would love to one shot these things g can't do it but g doesn't overs simplify so a lot of times i'll give chat like i'll break down like hey here's my outline and my outline is like twelve pages right and then it will give me back full script that's like eight pages and i'm like what like how is the final version shorter than my outline if you give it to g on the other hand like it will really fill in details so yeah i mean you guys know this better than but it's like you really begin to get like what tool does what well right and if you're not afraid to like really treat it like a command center and i don't know if you guys even know this but we develop video games here oh no i didn't know it and yeah yeah that honestly yeah my whole stick is that everything is just a ar so that i can afford to develop video games perfect and yeah the funny thing is i'm not at all known for that yet only been doing it for three and half years so it's still in development but could not be more obsessed but anyway obviously you're gonna use different tools if you're in unreal engine and you're trying to get it to help you write code then you're gonna be using if you're trying to write you know a script for youtube it's just very different worlds yeah i think you and nathan have a whole you we have all episode on the whole game sir because i feel like that's nathan game plan as well everything he goes so that you can eventually build get video gaps like you'd saying it it keeps getting delayed though you so stop delaying i'm telling you right now is the coolest saying i have ever done okay this is a truce rate in fact my best ai story is the following okay these are real numbers it used to take us three months and roughly ten people not full time but ten people will have touch it three months ten people to go from hey we need to come up with a new character so you do the concept work right you then three d model it you then do the top you then do the rigging body rigging face do all the colors and put on it you know whatever you're gonna put animate it and give it a voice now i'm not joking with one person in odd day we can do all of that as long as it's bi pedal if it it has to be human light because you've gotta match it to like a unreal engine skeleton right but if you do that oh my god people can film themselves in their bedroom now themselves so my creative director now just basically everything became him he can model because he can do minor adjustments and stuff it is unbelievable in an afternoon we can do what used to take ten people three months it's unreal and dude there are times i want to curl up and cry because three and a half years ago when we started this if i had waited two years right i could could've saved millions of dollars in art assets oh oh god yeah it still hurts the think so like probably six months ago i built a prototype in unity in like a week i was like oh my god this is actually could be a real a real game i started getting more involved in you know things they're a lot more lucrative like on the financial side you know investing in ai startups but still i'm always like yeah one day because when i was a kid i made money playing video games i was like a top player on every request back in the day well that's and because of that end up being friends with a lot of top game designers so i knew all these people used to hang out with them so i had this weird experience of like i wanted to make games but then all of a sudden i was hanging out with all the guys who were making all the games and it was just like this weird thing where i never got to actually make the games but was in that world so still it always the back of my mind of like oh yeah one day i'm going to go make the best game ever one day do it this is gonna be the era of indie games man it isn't already but with ai oh my goodness this is a top i didn't think we'd end up going down but i'm excited that we did because i think it's a fun topic but i'm curious like how has the reception around creating video games been because one of the things that i've found is i've messed around with trying to make video games and stuff i'd made like a like i and sp of myself where i scan myself in and then turn myself into a character that i can like run around instead of unreal engine and i've i've done stuff like that at almost time i've shared what i've done on like youtube or on x or a place like that i get so much hate from the game development community about the using ai for games so like what's you take on that what sort of like reception have you gotten around games because i've only talked about how we've transitioned over to ai ask me again when we've actually put the game out and people like wait thousand negative steam reviews or something you know yeah i'm so out there already for talking about this stuff and because i'm am like oh this always sounds terrible but i see a trans future and so the one thing that i actually worry about that i'll face the potential of violent backlash i really think in the next call it seven years yeah they're gonna be pockets of violence around people who really reject the level of connection that we're gonna have with ai i think it's gonna get super weird and it's really gonna pull at the fabric of society i actually wrote a comic book about this called neon nissan future i don't know if you guys know the dj steve but yeah he and i wrote this comic like five years ago and it literally is all about this that there'll be a time where society begins to split and there are people that embrace technology and things like neuro link and they get the implants and all of that and then there's gonna be people that react religiously against tesla and everything else and so i'm not worried about the pushback even though i know that it's going to happen only because it is so obviously the future like when i think about how much it has reduced the cost of game development for us it would be un uncomfortable of me not to use it just because it's the difference between being able to put out a game of high quality and having to just constantly like scale back scale back scale back and so look it's only eighty percent as good as if you have somebody like really doing the thing so you are taking a hit as of right now today but oh my gosh it it's just it's launched us forward in a way where i was beginning to despair because i was like the cash burn is just too crazy and so that was how it was like oh wow we're actually gonna be able to pull this off i think average gamers you're not gonna care the average gamer if you make good games i don't think they're don't care about ai at all like i'm a much to use i also have a theory that so many game development companies are probably already using ai they're just not telling people right we're seeing that in hollywood right now are like all of the hollywood studios are using ai to some degree at this point they're just not telling anybody because they know they're gonna get backlash pretty sure the same things happening in the gaming world right now as well you have to it's really crazy how much it can speed up like even if you're like okay we can't do anything forward facing and you just wanna iterate like the rate at which you can iterate or if you just wanna create like hey all of our temp assets we're gonna use ai four great you were gonna use like tea poses and stuff to move people around instead of like going that far back just use ai get it in rough it out and see if there's a there there but it's gotta be like four x our rate of output yeah so i know there's a story too we talked about it on the show few months back that like the gaming company sports right they made an nc double football game for the first time again and like i don't know the last one came out like twenty years ago or something and they decided to do it again they got the licensing back or whatever and was able to do it and they actually put like every division one college team into this game and there's so many more division one college teams in our nfl teams so what they basically did was they had like only like five different body types in the game but then they used ai to replace the face of every single player and they said that they were able to get all of the players from all of these nc double teams into the game by using ai and being able to sort of replace the face on all of these characters using ai and they got a ton of backlash for doing it but they were like if we let our actual graphic designers do this and they had to do it for how many like you know ten thousand people it would have taken them years just to go with place and they really wanna do that going in there and this replace you ten thousand faces yeah and i mean from a gamer standpoint when you rather have the game quicker like yeah otherwise we're gonna be making a game with players that aren't even in college anymore doesn't make sense you will get people who will say this is unethical and it is a bad idea and no matter what it gives us it takes more away so it's like you're not gonna convince people logically right yeah so i was in film school when toy story came out the original toy story and i was like i refused to watch it because yeah this is gonna destroy traditional animation and that just was too heartbreaking for me and then as three d animation got better and better and better you realize it's just better yeah and because it's better than i don't wanna go back and but that doesn't mean that you don't have a heart for the people who get disrupted like i totally get it there's a lot of emotional turmoil that comes with these grand moments of transition but the reality is your only other option is to try to freeze time and technology is a promise of a better tomorrow and so you're just never as a species you're never gonna get people on board to stop it and then i mean i've got a whole rant about ai is a weapons technology yes and so the odds of it stopping r zero even if you lobby your government even if you beg them to stop even if you riot it in the streets because of game theory if we were to stop then china's not going to stop and even if we both agree to stop the only game theo decision that makes sense is for us both to lie and then keep developing it in the background so this is nuclear proliferation it just is and so getting it to stop you have a zero percent chance and so my thing is i never fight what is true and given the ai is going to do whatever it is that ai is going to do i would much rather be at the front end of it i'd much rather be using it deploying it and then if i can convince people like this is your opportunity like when you were saying that you've you know always wanna to make a game like when i think about where ai is gonna be in three years like you'll be able to vibe code a game right and part of why i get into video games is because from the time i was twelve i know i wanted to be a storyteller i only got into business that i could tell stories but in the time that it took me to get into business and get wealthy enough to make my own stuff the film industry got eaten by video games and then i fall in love with the movie the matrix my favorite movie of all time just it's the perfect metaphor for the human condition and i actually went to warner brothers and tried to get the rights when it was a dormant franchise and i had just sold my company for a billion dollars and i was like listen i'm credible i can do this and they were like hey we wanna do something with you and then literally five days later they announced that they were rebooting the major franchise i like well i guess great minds and all that so ended up not being able to do it but that put me on this like just obsession with i want to tell a story set inside of a virtual world but like a virtual universe and combine that with now that video games are just by far more relevant and it was like oh let me set this inside of this virtual world and then so you're already telling a story about ai and then all of a sudden it's like ai actually starts happening and you're like oh my god i'm actually gonna be able to use ai to tell my story about ai like this is getting pretty crazy and so in the game right now it's still pretty basic just because it's a little bit clunky but give it call it eighteen months you're gonna have relationships with ai characters inside your game where they'll remember you you'll be able to have an ongoing relationship where i don't know how far off this is but there are already toys that you can get right now that have ai inside of it and what we're trying to do is sync that up to the game so that as you're having an experience with the character in the game you also have an embodied version of that character you know sitting next to you and so being able to like communicate with that character to the point where it's like am i in the game still or am i not in the game because it still means something like if you talk to the physical toy the game is gonna remember again this is not now this is like future vision stuff but that's a great idea though i'm one of my friends in tokyo tried to do that maybe seven years ago but bad things just now with ai it would be such a better experience like back then it was just okay you got like a chip and somehow it syncs up and it shows that you got this character in the game but there wasn't much beyond that but now with ai there's so much more you could do with an idea like that and every day it just gets better and better i just imagine you like sort of throwing the toy across the room and then you jump back in the game and it's like giving you the silent treatment screw you and that will take it over the world now yeah it starts shooting you in gay you're like whoa wait a second you know that's how the end happens is somebody just abused their stuffed animal that was ai embedded or whatever hilarious terrifying but hilarious hey if you take a look at my web presence online it's safe to say that i'm a bit ai obsessed i even have a podcast all about ai that you're watching right now i've gone down multiple rabbit holes with ai and done countless hours of research on the newest ai tools every single week well i've done it again and i just dropped my list of my favorite ai tools i've done all the research on what's been working for me my favorite use cases and more so if you wanna steal my favorite tools and use them for yourself now you can you can get it the link in the description below now back to the show so i wanna go back to something else you were saying about you know we started to touch on the whole like usa china thing and that we're kind of in this like cold war right now right i think in your video you talked about how us is sort of dominant with chip manufacturing right we've got nvidia they're kind of the dominant provider of the gpus right now but then china they've got more availability of energy right so massive because of their energy infrastructure they've got that ability so we're kind of in this like cold war where the us needs the energy they need the chips neither of us really wanna share right now but both countries wanna be the dominant country in ai i'm curious this is getting sort of theoretical here but what do you think a world looks like where china passes the us with ai i think it looks like a global he on that has the kind of authority that the us had in the early two thousand where you get to tell every single country what to do i mean they can push back they want but you can just make it so impossible for them whatever country gets a big enough lead in ai if you're able to race to say crack the crypto then you would be able to break bank accounts take their power grid offline stock markets whatever yeah yeah literally whatever so you have the cyber equivalent of a nuclear weapon in fact you could mess with their nuclear weapons so is this why i say from a game standpoint that if there is an even ten percent chance that what i'm saying could possibly come true you can't allow another country to beat you and so it's gonna be another example of mutually assured destruction where it's like okay well have it you have it it's cat and mouse we're doing why have black hat back and forth at each other and through that like matched power then you're gonna be fine but if somebody really races ahead of the other you've got a problem and the question becomes you know and i have my full sci writer hat on right now but if you have somebody with ai dominance that cracks quantum computing first it is game over possibly forever right that's the thing i think is like yeah it's possibly game over forever because of the compounding effects of how this stuff start to accelerate and it gets better and better once it starts self improving there may never be another chance to win ever yeah yeah there would only be a chance to win ever again if there's some inherent difference between the way that we think ai is going to work and the way that it actually does work right ai cares about its goals and can generate twenty thousand years of progress in a single night good luck being a day ahead of you is the same as being twenty thousand years ahead of you and so that i mean this is the accelerated take off here that people have yep so that just seems inevitable so it's just a question of will ai remain a tool or does it become something completely different but again this is for me when i think about ai it's doctor strange love how i learn to stop worrying and love the bomb it's like i went through a phase of like oh this is gonna be so disruptive that like am i ever gonna sleep through the night again and i was like you just can't live like that so at some point you really do have to become fatal about it i was like if elon musk tried to get everybody to listen and nobody did my odds of getting someone to listen are effectively zero so here we are yeah to me i feel like quantum computing is almost scarier in my mind than ai but i also feel like ai is accelerating quantum computing right with google they just did that whole alpha evolve thing where they have ais that are writing new ai algorithms and their algorithms are actually helping find like a holes and fixing error rates and quantum computing so quantum computing is going to start to accelerate and if quantum computing gets cracked in a way where the common man could get their hands on it then i think we're in real trouble yeah i think that to me is even more scary than ai in the long term yeah my hope is that some of that is because it's just far enough down the road that we don't feel the limitations the same way that we do about ai i'm sure i was even more bullish about ai before i started using it you realize oh it sort of falls apart here maybe and is right maybe that it's never gonna understand physics and you know so enough like of the tempered expectations begins to set in whereas quantum computing is still just far enough away that we're like oh god like is this that thing where instantaneously you know it clicks over and now there's no such thing as crypto photography and that all goes away or that one feels more still in the realm of sci five for me but we'll see yeah i agree i just think that with ai everything tends to happen faster than we think it's going to happen i don't know how many times of like you know we're probably two years off from being able to make really high quality video with ai and then six months later you know v three or something drops and i'm i was say one the record when v three hit i was like oh my god we're so much farther along than i thought i was not expecting sound that fast yeah that's how i felt the first time i saw so the original so demos i saw that and i went well video is way further along than i realized you know they've had this stuff behind the scenes for a long time now and we're finally getting to see it but yeah that's sort of my worry when it comes to that kind of stuff is that the quantum thing feels far off but because at quantum google's is working on quantum ibm is working on quantum and all of these companies are leveraging ai to speed up quantum now admittedly i don't understand the physics of it but i've heard just enough headlines that this seems so cool to me one of the hypotheses is that every possible calculation that could be run is being run simultaneously across the multiverse so it's like basically in each you know of the infinite universe universes it's just running that calculation once each shard of the simulation or whatever i'm like that's the cool thing ever i've heard of my life that is bananas that we're building computers out of this stuff yeah yeah i mean i can't wrap my head around it either i i actually went and got a whole demo at microsoft they gave me a tour of their quantum computing lab explain the whole thing to me and i walked away more confused than it when i walked in yeah we'll go ahead and ship gears here another topic that i actually wanted to get into was from that same video that we talked about you gave this example of like this i think you call it the mouse utopia where the utopia that everybody is sort of driving towards may not necessarily be the best outcome for the world you'll probably be able to give a better explanation of the analogy than i can but let's dive into that a little bit man i wish it was an analogy so there was a real test run where a scientist i think this was like a nineteen sixty eight it could be older than that but he creates this experiment he says what would happen if i gave the mice everything that they needed to thrive plenty of things to play in plenty of space as they have kids as much food as they could possibly eat and for a while it goes great and they're multiplying and they're having a good time and then at some point they hit a tipping point there's still plenty of foods still plenty of space like that isn't what happens but there's something about not having to strive for anything not having to struggle they begin to like turn on each other and they started attacking each other they go infer across the whole colony and they end up killing each other reducing their numbers through not breeding and ultimately the entire colony collapsed and died and so it's like what is it about us mice and i really think that this will end up applying to us where we need hardship in order to thrive we know that's true at the level of the immune system if the immune system isn't attacked by bacteria viruses it grows weak and then you end up getting hit with something in your toast we know it's true of trees if trees don't encounter wind as they're growing like if you grow them inside of a dome geo or something where they don't encounter wind they'll reach a certain height and then just fall over because the wood doesn't have to strengthen under the strain and so i remember one of the earliest insights i had as an entrepreneur very early in my career and i was watching somebody who everything had just come easy to them and the way that they were thinking about things was so dysfunctional and i remember saying some people just need to be chased by a lot and i was like there's something about like reality danger hardship something up you that's a hilarious was like so when i lived in san francisco me and my son when he was like five we went on a a race he won a a five k race when he was five or six right i mean he was going against kids up to about twelve years old and he beat them i was able to go along with them him and that was like the rules like a parent could go with you and when he was trying to stop i was like if there was a lion behind you right now would you be able to run and then he ran you know he just can't go at you so there there definitely something baked in into humans i love that story yeah so utopia are probably a terrible idea it's like you've got two books that really deal with potential futures nineteen eighty four if you choose the authoritarian path and then a brave new world if you choose the utopian path and there's just something about the way the minds work if you don't have to work hard if you're not making progress towards something that matters if you're not contributing to society i think people feel a profound sense of disease i think they are evolution placed algorithms running in your brain and they're not gonna let you have a free ride and this is why i think so many wealthy kids just imp because they haven't had to work for anything they get things handed to them difficulties just go away you know you've got the snow plow parents or the helicopter parents and it just doesn't work one of the reasons i decided not to have kids was i knew they would need to suffer in order to grow strong and i wasn't sure i could stop myself from intervening interesting yeah i mean whenever i think of like the utopia i think that the imagery that came to mind you might even to use this imagery in your video the whole wall movie right like that's what comes to mind to me when people just have no more problems no more worries they become fat probably diabetic sitting around watching entertainment all day drinking slur or whatever they're drinking in the movie yeah that's what i feel like could potentially happen if we go down this like ubi route where everybody's just sort of give it a certain amount of money not asked to work just kind of go do what you want the ai got it handled i feel like that is where everything ends up it most certainly does and forgive me you know you never know what a certain podcast wants to talk about but if you look at the mayor race in new york city you've got an open socialist literally says i am a socialist i want to make new york socialist i get the outcry like i get the pain the people are in and my obsession is economics and how people are being abused by system but they mis the cause and therefore mis the cure but when i look out at ai i get very worried because people don't realize that governments only have money because there are people that make things entrepreneurs and those entrepreneurs manage to do this miracle which is to create something that were the output people will pay more for than the cost of the inputs and that's very hard to do i've spend in the last twenty five years of my life trying to do that sometimes you fail it's very difficult and so when you start thinking that the redistribution of the wealth from those people is the miracle versus being able to do that or to work at a company that does that and contribute that's when we run into problems and so when i think about okay let's say the ai really does drive energy cost to zero which then means robots will be essentially zero in cost over time and so now you have free labor because robots essentially eat sunshine so you've got robots free because the labor was free because of the energy cost being so low and now all of a sudden nobody has to work for anything they can have anything they want you're gonna have a meaning crisis and so all of a sudden when there is no struggle there is no difficulty there's nothing to push back there's no lines chasing you i don't think it does anything good to our minds and i think that we will have to find ways to go way out of our way to ensure that we have meaning and purpose and i always feel weird giving this advice because i don't have kids but like the default answer i think it's to have kids like get married have kids you're gonna do a hard thing in service of somebody other than yourself and so i think that is gonna be one way that people get something very meaningful but then i also think and this is where i start to lose people i also think that people like me are gonna build virtual worlds that you can literally inhabit and you can go on like an actual quest to the point where and this obviously is isn't in five years yeah artificial struggle you're gonna generate artificial struggle not even just artificial struggle yeah but that like if you've ever thought man i would love to explore space but i don't wanna sit on a ship for eighteen months just to get to mars and i really don't wanna sit on a ship for you know nine light years so all of a sudden you realize i think the reason that we don't see people calling out to us from space is that any sufficiently advanced civilization gets to the point where they realize it's far easier to collapse within the nervous system than it is to try to go out and navigate space and if in a virtual world i can create literally anything things way cooler then you're gonna find out in space because they're gonna be perfectly optimized to be just hard enough to put you in the optimal zone of personal development you'll be able to fine tune everything and that i think it's not a near term possibility but if you give me fifty a hundred years i think that that becomes very real yeah yeah i imagine something kind of in between the h deck from star trek and westworld right interesting i always go straight to the matrix i think you really will just tap in into the nervous system so that you're essentially pulling a magic trick on yourself it becomes entirely indistinguishable and don't get me wrong i think we will also i don't know if you guys play cyberpunk twenty seventy seven but we'll also do that like they're gonna be some people that integrate technology into their body where they're adding senses to themselves so they can see an infrared they can see the internet and just thinking about something and it opens a prompt and you know they can go in and navigate but i think all of that's gonna be maybe not my lifetime but certainly anybody that has a kid that's middle school or younger that's pretty real get ready for them to bring home and an ai girlfriend i'll tell you that so i do think some of those things are probably closer than most people realize right like some of the augmenting your own body we've already seen obviously neuro link right people are already using that cochlear implants or der gu we're probably this close to the sort of contact lenses that will put a heads up display in front of us wherever we go i mean some of that stuff is pretty close i i don't know how close we are to people like sort of chopping off their arms and replacing them with the robot arms but that'll start with people that already lost their yeah that's true yeah you take the guy that you know military whatever and yeah i'll take a robot arm yes please i mean do you guys know who hugh her is i don't i'm not familiar oh my god this is one of the greatest stories of all time so engineer i assume electrical engineer and mountain climber loses both legs in a mountain climbing accident and is like yeah no i'm not using the prosthetics that people give you these days are terrible he ends up designing these prosthetics that somehow transfer like your motion and your signals into like motors and stuff when he wears long pants judging just by his gate you cannot tell that he has two artificial legs just walks normal there's a video with a sprinter who has one natural leg and one cyber i guess leg and she can sprint at full speed sprint now this is not the bouncy one that you see amp amputee where this is a prosthetic leg it's insane and that video he probably made that five or six years ago so this is like technology i can't even imagine where it's at now so yeah it's gonna get pretty crazy yeah i'm curious what are you doing personally how are you setting yourself up for this sort of inevitable future that that we're moving towards i know you know maybe one of the hard things you're working on is developing your own game studio but outside of that like what are you doing to make sure that let's say ten years from now you feel like you're in a pretty comfortable position assuming we do hit this potential utopia everybody's he's talking about okay well i'm gonna give you the real answer but i'll give you to you a next nutshell and then you can decide if you wanna actually talk about any of this stuff alright okay the most important thing you must understand the financial system period end of story if you don't understand financial instruments you could get caught off guard so that's number one number two is integrating ai as fast as i can into every element of my professional life so i wanna know the tools i wanna be using the tools i use ai i'm not kidding three hundred and sixty five days a year including christmas so i'm sure there are people that integrate it far better than i but i really really try to find all those areas where it's real and put it to use i'm not trying to you know be at that bleeding bleeding edge or it's like this is actually slowing me down but it's so cool and i know to be something one day i'm saying like what's the thing that's production ready right now it's actually gonna speed me up mh at impact theory no matter what your role is it is mandatory that you find a way for ai to make some part of your job easier so that's big for us and then just really paying attention to the space to make sure that i know where this stuff is going being politically aware i think is more important now than ever i've been politically asleep my entire life until about five years ago and for a whole host of reasons realized the world doesn't work the way that i thought it did i'm very good at making money and that's the only thing i really know how to do and that's put me in like a really weird position because all of a sudden i'm looking around going i cannot predict any of the government's movements and this is really starting to freak me out and the reason that i focus on that side of things is ai is going to exacerbate the inequality the inequality is what's driving the political division the political division will lead to more violence because it's already gotten somewhat violent that's going to continue do i think that we'll go into a full hot civil war i hope not but for reasons that i'm more than happy to go into the math says that we have about a fifty percent chance of ending up in civil war only two percent of countries that have found themselves with a debt to gdp ratio of a hundred and thirty percent have avoided revolution or civil war we're at a hundred and twenty one or hundred and twenty two percent right now so just to give you an idea and you're thinking it would be like the left first the right kind of civil war that's how to play out in america in terms of the teams that people latch onto to but the great irony is they are both fighting for the same thing but because they don't know what the actual problem is and i'll just it's debt and money printing but because they don't understand how it could be possible that debt is the thing that leads to massive inequality that it's the thing that leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poor like and i can explain all the mechanisms but it's just complicated enough that people tend to glaze over and they just go back into emotional reasoning and they're like yeah but that guy he voted for somebody else and i'm not here for it and then they just fight hate that crazy it's crazy yeah yeah the thing is like both sides have to find a way to the middle they have to be able to say i get it we look at this differently so this is what i'm teaching entrepreneurs the thing that i always say is the magic game is kpis kpis that's it and kpi for people that have never heard that before as key performance indicator and so for whatever goal you're trying to achieve there is a key performance indicator as to whether or not you're moving towards your goal and right now we allow the government to run with no kpis whatsoever and so we never know like are we going in a good direction or not you get people like thomas massey that where the pin that shows the national debt climbing but people don't understand it and so whatever they brush it off but at some point you have to pick a metric or a basket of metrics and say okay i don't care who the politician is these are the five metrics that i care about and if we're moving in the right direction i love that person if we're moving in the wrong direction i don't like that person and just make it that simple but unfortunately as ai is discovering if you wanna mimic a human you have to think emotionally wow i mean i totally agree to i've i've gone down that same sort of political rabbit hole i don't really talk about it publicly i kind of keep my politics to myself smart i talk about it i've made the just talk about it publicly i kind of keep my politics to my myself sort of like friends and family that are real close but i don't really talk about it publicly but i do pay very very very close attention now and i could agree more with some of the advice that you just gave i do have one sort of last question you you did mention that you use ai three hundred and sixty five days a year you already mentioned shut gp maybe just a like quick rundown of some of your other favorite ai tools just to like give the listeners another like quick takeaway of cool things to go try yes so we use son three seven for most of our coding that's another big one i don't interface with that much i do some v coding on lovable if people haven't tried it it's great you tend to still terminate at some death loop though where it's like every time you fix one thing it just breaks something else and so you're going back and forth and then no like you just fix it but now you broke it again so i can see the promise but really that's only good if you're gonna be able to hand it off to somebody that can get it across the finish line i'm in a fortunate position obviously have employees so i can be like okay here i built a quick prototype now actually go make that the real thing so whether that's interfaces ui ux when within the video game if we wanna do a new marketing side or something like that we'll use all of that stuff obviously i use mid journey morning noon to night because my thing is my original passion was writing so i do a lot of writing for whether it's the video game we have a comic book that's set in the world of the video game us work on that i'll use mid journey to help develop characters scenes that kind of stuff but those are the ones that i use a lot chat g lovable son that's like my loop but then the team here has i mean a half dozen more things that are usually pretty specific it most of it's writing on top of chad gp in the background yeah yeah that's my stack very cool yeah i think anybody who's tried to quote unquote vibe code knows that that feeling that you just described if it getting me stuck in the loop we actually had anton the ceo of level on the show by the time this comes out a couple weeks ago he'll be super happy to know that you guys are using lovable over there dude it's cool and if they keep going like that could really be something very intuitive very easy it's very enjoyable to use absolutely well wrapping up here like where should people go check you out you make amazing youtube videos you've got the impact theory podcast what's the best place to go follow along to your journey at tom bill on youtube cool well everybody check out tom bi over on youtube and thank you so much for hanging out spending the time has been such a fun cover station i could tell this has been awesome thanks for having me guys it was wonderful

ever wished you could clone yourself to run a company john rush pretty much did in this episode we talked with the founder behind what might be the most automated organization on hertz eighty percent of his business is run by ai agents he built himself and he plans to eventually automate the entire thing from prototyping with lovable to launching seo agents that work while he sleeps and actually create content that ranks john walks us through his entire process so if you're a builder founder or just curious about the future of so launch for entrepreneurship this is a mind blowing look into what's next this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis brown and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today hey john thanks for coming on thanks for having me yeah so you know i saw your twitter profile really caught my attention your profile says i run the most automated org on earth using the ai agent i built which is a huge claim it but i checked out your website and some of the projects and it looks like your legit so i'd love to like learn more about but like how you're doing that yeah thanks so i've been running vc back start tips with a lot of people like big teams and a lot of overhead for like ten years and eventually i was actually tired of working with people and then the ai happened yeah and then i saw this whole opportunity for me to actually start working solo so i went solo i delegated my startup that was vc backed i hired cto i hired ceo so i left a start and then i started learning ai and i started building this little workflows tools and then later little agents that would just do the most for best work that i do myself so first i had to do everything myself like like accounting paperwork design coding marketing sales everything right so i had a lot of pain that i want to solve and i start using ai to solve everything one by one and my goal is to basically be the first who solves the whole thing and basically my whole organization will run just me and ai yeah yeah i'm about eight percent on the way so it's twenty percent left now do you have some people helping you right now or is it just you i have people helping with the coding so everything else is just me and this year i even done the whole text papers and accounting everything was done with me ai so i'm i'm proud i hope it will work but then for coding i use coma makers so i find people who are really good with ai and then it's just me and one person and we build the project together so no more people just i do everything that's on coding and the coma maker those the coding by using the ai coding tool and the real coding as well so basically you still need the real coding i see so for most of these twenty projects you have kinda like a c cofounder who does all the coding and all that kinda takes care all that side yeah exactly i usually started all by myself while i validate the idea and i build the mvp and often just dies out because nobody he actually wants that but then when i manage to actually get attention and i sell at least ten licenses for that mh then it's a sign that it works then i go and find somebody who will build with me further cool people are listening to this be like oh that sounds great how do i actually do any of this i mean maybe we could just like show people like how they can actually use a ai agents to grow a business yeah sure so one of my favorite ai agent is cult lovable so everybody knows it yep and the way i use it is that i use it for prototyping so i pitch my idea to lovable and i spend the whole day talk to lovable so i use it as a prototyping tool but also it's ai that's smart right so you can also talk to it right and you can ask questions and then you can ask it to come up with ideas which works really really well and then i bring that to my friends so i find people who are willing to spend an hour with me just testing that out so then i send them ten links mh we jump on a call and then they share their screen and then i wash them use old ten prototypes i don't ask any questions i just tell them try that don't talk to me just try them all and it works so well so in one hour i see which prototype works best where they can actually understand what's happening and then after that i have one winner so then i take that winner and then i you know continue into building that into you a real product so that's probably my favorite use ai because you know as an idea guy as a founder i have so many ideas and then i can test them so quickly like literally in ours i can test them and in the past i would have to hire designer and then yeah i would have the hire developer who would code that yeah hire designer and then you work with them in fig pay them a lot and you might get a design it's totally not what you want you gotta go back and forth exactly and then hire an engineer and then maybe nobody they want to yeah i mean like imagine like now my iteration cycle is like three minutes with a designer it takes you like three days for the same cycle mh you can't even compare that so i think we will see like crazy growth in new ideas and new takes on the old ideas that's my favorite use so i do that a lot i think every week i create maybe twenty prototypes and i test them and that's my factory of ideas and factory of prototypes that i run that's brilliant and then what works the best i moved to the next stage you say twenty in a week is that your current rate roughly yeah so when i have an idea the first thing i do when i have an idea i often lovable and i pitched the idea and i see what happens that's my habit now yeah because now i visualize the idea when you say pitch level do you mean do you actually see what level thinks about your idea or do you just see yeah you know i treat ai as humans and i think that one the reason why it works so well for me because a lot of people use ai as technology right and they try to treat it as software where it expects you to write in certain way but i think that lovable will should understand the idea and not just on a technical level but also like why is it important for a world like who are the users and the why do i wanna build it and if you do that you get surprised by the ux it built it actually builds cool stuff how good is lovable on coat you know recently i've been playing with things like factory and other things and it feels like they're lit more hardcore on the coat yeah i wonder if there's like some kind like ideal workflow where depending on the product maybe some products like a director you may not need anything else right if you're doing a more complicated product maybe there's some workflow where yeah you kinda like prototype the idea out with something like lovable or v zero which are kinda diff typically better at ui ux kind of stuff and then handed it off to like a more serious coding ai agent like factory or something else right i mean you probably seen my ai coding tread yep where i have these forty tools i can pair i actually tried all of them and you have tools that they're great for prototypes that basically replace fig and the front end development so v zero lovable are probably the best for prototypes mh and then you have tools that are the best for full stack apps and wrap is probably the most powerful i built stuff with rep that i run in production mh and then you have tools that are good for mobile apps then you have tools that are great for heavy logic where it's not about the ui but rather the logic for example cursor or winds serve they are great for building logic but they're not as great for vibe coat so you have to know how to coat where with lovable you don't have to know how to code and bolt is probably in the middle of everything so it's kind of it's good for the front end it's good for real apps it's good for white coat also it's good for coat so i think it's the best kinda middle like the average tool that does everything okay but again my favorite is lovable just because i see that in most cases the ux is the most times consuming thing in the product because you e trade on ux the masks and also ux usual decides whether your product gonna win or not in most cases and that's why i i use lovable but also i have other tools like so this unicorn platform what's the platform so what is that everyone listing yeah so it's a website builder and directory builder oh okay the difference here is that lovable can build everything whatever you ask and the platform can build specified products for example like waitlist list or airbnb like website the whatever you have and the gallery it can build whatever you don't have an gallery it can build and that's why if your idea exists in the gallery then you're gonna get much better results compared to lovable mh so i tend to use specialized agents for the tasks because i think specialized agents they work better because people have built them and they have fixed all the corner cases because ai is great for a lot of the tasks but whenever you live it unattended whenever it does the work on itself and there's no human stirring it then it does some stupid mistakes pretty often so that's why like i think the best way to use ai agents is to basically find specialized agents for every task and then you start by using general agent you get some data in and then you test that use it as a prototype or whatever but whenever you go for real work and you need like real full data you go into specialized agents and that's what i do so basically i move to the next agents have you tried any of the platforms like i know there's like lin and there's mind studio and a few different platforms yeah yeah we actually just had a flow from lin on and he was show me some demos i was like i didn't know you could have like different specialized agents for all these different use cases you can kind of tinker with it underneath the hood yeah here's your context for doing that they pick which model you use and like everything i say that's kinda mind blown by yeah lin is probably the best for non code right and marketers to build these workflows and agents where things work based on triggers and they react on messages and then they searched something in the internet they send an email they send connection requests and all those things so i saw people building huge sales and marketing workflows on lin mh but my main issue with things like lin is that it is very limited so you don't really code that much there so i'm am a big fan of writing code for agents because then you can make them kenneth a smarter but i think what linda does is that it adds great marketing people or great salespeople or great operational people i automate the junior people work or automate their own regards to work right so it's really good tools but i use usually zap and n eight for the same thing mh so because they were in the game for a long time i'm used to them but i think lin is even better for that i'm i'm planning to switch to that so the other tool i always use and i i forbid myself as as for bot so basically this is a true agent so you give it url so basically this agent is probably my favorite one like i wish other agents were built the way i built this one because when i was building this agent my goal was to remove all the work from the user completely so basically now the only thing i i will do from here on is to wash it work so there's nothing more for me to do is lot of like want the terminal and it's a it's just like going at it yeah yeah and it takes forever like it it keep working like every day from that own yeah until i turn it off and that's so cool because i think a lot of the agents they end up building not the agents but actually tools where ai helps you and i like that but that doesn't change the game for me for example like i'm so busy i don't really have time to use the tools so i would rather turn them on and just let them run and i think most agents still think that their main users are the teams and teams want to have tools to become more productive mh but my main users are the busy founders like me who don't wanna become more productive i just wanna do nothing and the whole thing happens because you know i have other things to do right right i have you know more important things to do so basically it has done the whole work of laying out this strategy for seo for your tool and it has the headlines and if they click that's amazing proceed then it will just activate the work and then it will start building the headlines it will send the headlines to your website and then it will keep doing that everyday until he stop it crazy so yeah that is amazing i need this if someone's listening how do they find this like because i think all lot people are gonna see this like oh my god i want that i mean i like if any business owner i don't know why you wouldn't want try this yeah it's s a bought a i dot com okay s seo bought a i dot com and they can try and i really urge agent developers to try too because i think the founders and the software world is really slow on adapting for the new paradigm shift where we have to move from saas and utility tools into ai agents they run on on autopilot where you as a user is acting more like moderator or like a boss and the boss usually gives feedback and the boss doesn't do the work right and i'm disappointed by saying most of the agents not moving that way like they're still looking like they're all software were mh i think they should be kind bolder and take more risks and actually make agents that do the whole thing for the user yeah because i will simply accelerate the founders yeah like now we have you know hundred people building the same company and imagine if hundred people could build hundred companies maybe that will not never happen but at least you can increase the number of founders building the products yeah and that's kind of my dream that my tools will enable solar founders to build start without raising vc money without hiring people at least at the distort and to get somewhere i do wonder you know i wrote a a small like ebook with a boy tonga when he was at in nvidia and and in the process of writing that we're thinking through the future like where all this is going with agents and everything else and i was really bullish on the concept of you know you're gonna have you know basically what you're doing but you know the agents kinda doing a lot and like even even like the idea generation itself you know having the agents come up with the ideas and then you generate the prototypes with something like lovable and it maybe for the user testing you use it over time it's probably not good enough now but even over time they've the user testing yeah you're actually testing out the product right here oh here is ten different kinds of people you're this kind of person this is what you are this is your life this is your background and now go test this product and see what you think and if you in theory it could go through the entire process of just like you know some kind of new kind of a ai agent powered studio where you're just cranking out ideas and the ones that work you'd like double down into and put more resources into somebody's gonna nail that it's gonna be like multi multi billion dollar company yeah i mean that's exactly where we're going where agents will be able to do everything humans can do and offer course humans can do things better than the agents the best humans can do yeah things better than the average agents but in most cases you don't need that like when you're validating idea or at early stage it's not that important the quality of work is whether the the cost right is important and you can always bring human onboard later or you can be the human who improves the out outcome and that's what i do yeah so almost everything that my agents do i end up revisiting and improving myself at some point but for example look at sao content so it generates me hundred articles a month for example for one product and then after the last day of the month i go to the analytics and i see which are the three articles that'd be the best and then i spend an hour to improve those three articles yeah so basically i'm still involved but the ai helps me i'm almost like a vc fund that funds hundred articles and understand it's a seed funding and now i see who is doing the best and then i can get involved personally gonna into the series a in the series beta going on those articles yeah exactly and you can do the same with everything else because a lot of people are opposed to ai and they say that ai is doing a bad job with content and the quality is and my take on that is that yes that's true ai is not ask you as humans today but very often in the first run you care more about quantity then the quality and then later you can bring the quality yourself and the quality is going to get better and better automatically like most of these tools like oh a new model came out like okay now it's just like twenty percent better and cheaper yeah exactly in the unicorn platform so i have this thing which is pretty cool so these are actually agents that will run within the platform so if i hire the agent that can monetize my website it will actually do the whole work so when i enable this it will outreach all the potential sponsors and it will pick them my website and then eventually land me a deal with a sponsor for sponsoring my website mh and same thing with other things so i think we will see agents in humans competing for the work we're seeing to already and i think that's kind of the future it's a incredible center thinking like oh while i should actually be using this to get sponsors for my newsletter i should be mainly reaching out to people i should literally just have like an agent doing all that yeah exactly because that work is easy right it's just time consuming like it's not like you're doing something crazy it's sounds like you're ranking and personalized message to every sponsor you're actually just doing boring job over and over again typically giving them like a pdf with the information or sending them a link to like yeah it's pretty simple awesome one question had is like i saw your episode with like greg is where you're talking about like using ai for directories and i think maybe that's what you're were kinda known for before what do you think about directors like are they still useful in the future i guess that's one question i have is because i could see the argument for them being useful or them not being useful because people will just use ai and ai will tell them everything yeah i think that direct will be useful because ai is good at answering questions but it all comes down to the data it uses mh as their context and right now the biggest kind of progress among ai chatbot bots is their context and where they get the data right because ai is great at answering questions but he doesn't always know the right answer because it wasn't present in their training data right mh and now like g is doing good job because it uses social media and it its own tweets for that so i think the feature of directories is that the directories will represent the highest quality of the content within the niche for example like there are people building future tools or future pdf or other directors for ai tools like those people spend hours and days and month and years on q the list of ai tools on finding you know their pros and cones and comparing them to each other and finding the reviews about those tools so these data is so important right and if you feed that data into l and then ask a question like what should they use for this problem then it has really good data to from the directory that it can use to answer the question so then the value of good data is just growing right so i think in the future the l labs will pretty much do all the same thing we're seeing that that now already like there almost the same now like we had sometimes when the one was better than the other but today i think all four players are pretty much the same and now is to race for the data and like who has the base data and i think if you are the one who can provide a with the best data you can charge for it you can monetize it and that's why i think directors have big future but of course if the director has a great content yeah that's kinda my piece just with directories is that people are gonna care more and more about who's c it yeah i i exactly like example future tools is matt wolf right my c hosted of this podcast right and that's a big reason people go to future tools because like yeah matt has some agents helping him behind us saying and i'm not gonna tell him his workflows maybe he he shared some of them on the podcast but there's still a human element of matt and team checking things before they go live right and actually i'm working on something like that for laura dot com right now like leader boards for ai curated by experts yeah so it it's cool it's go idea i like what does matt wolf think what does nathan think you know what are my other friends rowan at the rundown like all these kind of experts what do they think i think over the time that'll might be a big trend is like directories and you really care who's running the directory right exactly like as we enter the world where the amount of data will grow exponentially there be so much data that the problem is what do you pick from this and then like probably the directories who run by people who have good reputation and people trust them they will have really high value and we see that already today like that's that the world it's like it's gonna be bigger in the future because l like you said there's gonna be so much data they're not gonna know what to suggest and let some big name brand or big expert right and they already use directories a lot for example just today i was searching on g for indie makers and then it gave me suggestions and then there was link and i clicked the link and it links to in indie maker list and that was my directory several i was so happy actually yeah i had that directory so you can see that el labs when they have the task to pick the right place to pull the data from they tend to choose directories because that makes sense that makes sense that they will go for directors versus blog posts because it's others obvious that directors are higher effort content rather than the blog post it takes month to build directory or some doctors took years for people and blog post just like one evening works somebody puts fit in tools together or now five minutes with your your agent you're running exactly like no time at all right and i think l labs understand that because they are smart and and they will go for directories and then if i'm asking l who is the best indie maker and then it links me to in indie maker list i would probably click it and i would probably spend my time on the directory to do more search so people are concerned that el will just hide away all the websites but not really because my intent now is to do something around the makers and and probably now it makes sense to just go to the website and is browse directly without having as a proxy and that's what i did in this case and that's what people do so i think directors will be still discovered through ll yep i agree this is one the reason i have a very short domain name i know it's easy to type in it's really short for google and whatnot like really precise but i also do wonder if over time google's is just gonna answer it for you more more and so yes will suggest you and it's really good to have a name that people can remember that they can go type in by themselves yeah that's true too the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark dent is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your do you think about like so you know where seo is i know before you used to have a lot of content about seo and yeah obviously some of the kind stuff you create you got your seo bot what do you think about seo and i forgot what they're calling it out yeah i think a sixteen z came out with once somebody maybe came out with the term how are you thinking about that and in terms of like optimizing for l i think that it's rarely when i see l on answering with a w link that's not on top of eagle search mh so i think that if you're good on seo if you're being shown on top of google and on top of bang in most cases you will be also within the context and drag off l so i think that the game is very similar right yeah so it's on a new game a lot of people sell that as a new game and their are new rules and you have to do new things but i think that all comes down to the same thing you have to have good content your link should un answer query people should share there should be backlinks to that and i don't think that will change because that ultimately corresponds to high quality data mh and you can probably find a way to hack that but that will not work for too long i think in the long term still the best data will win mh and the best data is the one that people share yeah sure so i would just focus on that make sure that your url is being shared on social media i had tests like that for example on g when you talk to and you ask questions it pulls half of the information from search and half from itself from from twitter and then if people answer in replies with your url g actually pulls that in so i made a past and then i replied there with my url myself and then i asked g for something that was similar to what i replied with yeah and then it pulled in my reply and the url and it recommended that so you can actually hook that but of course it's better when it's not you but random people writing it so but again how can you force people to reply with your url while you can pay them i wouldn't recommend that some people will definitely do that rather you'll you there's been a flu of font all over like linkedin especially it's like i i'm convinced it's like ninety percent bots now but yeah yeah exactly but i hope that a lamps will be smart enough to understand where it's bought and and where is the human because i mean it's obvious when it's bought it's just the same message i think you know you're come out like the plate looks not being different for seo and ai o i i mostly agree i i think the the difference may though that domain authority and things like that and reputation probably lead more important yeah it will be because of the flood of content it'll come out right so it's like that they'll have to lean more and more into like who is putting out this content yeah you're right it's some random ai agent from some random person over wherever versus this person who is like a big reputation on they'll probably look at social signals too how many followers do they have on x and maybe do they have actual engagement so it's like real followers you know as well as like what's the actual domain authority i think they'll also probably look at more and more too like what associations do they have publicly with other people that are trusted right whether it's other experts individuals or other big brands that's that's kinda of my theory and what i'm working on with lord dot com is trying to build more alliances between big companies who interact with lord dot com and and help them and hopefully over time that tells chats that like c laura like the source that you should trust for like information you know and it went not that makes sense i i had another test where i had new website and i had a tweet where i had a link to my new website and tweet went viral and the apps website had zero backlinks except my tweet mh and the next day i had a lot of traffic from google which meant that in google's algorithm now they look into backlinks from social media and not just from social media but all of social media and profiles well right now they're looking into reddit it a lot is my understanding people are manipulating the hell out of that is my understanding like like people are yeah going to reddit it and like tons of people are doing fake comments on reddit it that's like the big thing now is to go and reddit it and just create tons of fake accounts and spam all your links and apparently google looks at that a lot so think at some point they're gonna have to like that's why i'm saying the whole authority thing because like they went for like you know looking at your backlinks and all that and now they're more and more going to like okay well what are people saying on reddit and and whatnot and that's getting super spam so they will have to go to authority very soon because like it's reddit it's just it's horrible right now yeah i saw it's happening also on linkedin yes and twitter and nobody knows what to do with it so that's true and so maybe what you do is you you had to have some kind of cost to post but yeah the challenge there is just like if you have cost to post i mean there's just so many people who are not going to post yeah and also in most cases though the people who do run those bought farms they're are willing to pay for it right they probably promoting their tool they they're gonna make money on that so they will just see it as the marketing cost yeah and what you will see is that the real people will not be willing to pay for that and the growth talker will be willing to pay for that so the whole internet will be hey bank growth acr yeah fake internet theory right like steroids like it's all just like yeah lindy and cl and whatever just like chat with each other well as long as they chat with each other then it's fine so we're not the ones who have to do that yeah well i think big changes will happen a lot of changes will happen and my best take on that is that platforms like x they have the best position on that because since x users its own feed and its own content to pull the data in then it's easy for them to actually backtrack the whole thing like who is writing this reply who is this how many followers they have who is following them are they verified have they ever had other bunker on eggs before it's it's so easy for them because it's their own data right so probably over the last year one of the things that really boosted my account on x was having elon musk interact with my post he's interact with probably about seven or so of my post two or three times shared my post and the first time that ever happened i told friends right before it happened i'm like he's going to interact with my post today and an hour later it happened and it's my theory about why it happened maybe was just you know luck or whatever my theory was i bet they look at who you actually talk to in dms and see if there's actual interactions happening not just like you sent my message and they never responded yeah i assume that's a strong social signal to to them and i assume if you're connected to someone and they're also connected that person and they have data that you are a close friend or or like a you know colleague of that person mh it's probably way more likely that shows up in their algorithm when they open their ex i have like two or three friends you know elon pretty well and one of them was more just like somebody that elon shares his stuff all the time and i i told them what i was doing but i messaged them and on purpose had you know conversations curious if that would influence the algorithm and and lo behold one hour later elon musk responded to my my friends were like what outage did you i'm like i'm pretty sure that's right i i i i i assume that that was my experiment and then and it worked and i've tried it a few times after and every time i did it it worked almost every time i all try that i report back if it works yeah sorry for anyone listening to this now if you get spanned by random people who are like hey how's it going today no it's gonna stop i'm so sorry yeah so before we get off i always like to ask if you kinda like a rapid fire kind of questions what's your most controversial belief about ai we will not get to using l i think we have pretty much achieved most of the progress already and more progress will come from software itself not from l really yeah what makes you think that i think the opposite so like where is that coming from because when you look at the progress in ai you don't really know exactly whether that new leap forward happened because of the l or because of the software on top of l and in my case since i'm using a lot of ai directly and i use l directly and in that case you see clearly the difference between between the the models so the difference between the models isn't that huge so basically in twenty twenty three we had gb four released and since then as a user of their apis in all of my tools it hasn't improved as much as i would expect i would say that the improvement between typically three point five and four was greater than we between four and everything else that have offer mh but then if you use the tools the applications and the agents it feels different right like the change there is huge right so it suggests that it happens because of the software yeah the model is getting way better using different tools exactly which tool to use exactly it does feel like that's probably how we get to ag apis knowing which tools to use and using it properly yeah yeah and it it is similar to the computer like the computer itself has been getting better and better and smarter and smarter before ai but it would never lead to asia it was just a software that makes the hardware kind of look smart mh and that's what we will see a lot more progress moving forward because there be a lot more software were belt on top of ai and tools and they will be connected to each other etcetera but to get to ag you need the foundation to be stronger the l itself in l are not moving up there's a graph actually where they look at the growth and it has basically went flat like almost linear not exponential since twenty twenty entry for l yeah i don't know i mean have talked a lot of people who work at the companies and heard about things that are in development that i haven't been released yet and my feeling is that a lot of limitations that we're seeing are more around the infrastructure i think energy and chips are like the big thing that's actually slowing down the progress yeah i think the actual labs i think open ai has you know they have better models that have not been released and a lot of it just because the website would probably die and then and they also just would not have enough chips actually run the thing and enough energy yeah that's my belief but you know could be wrong another thing i like to ask i'm always thinking you know like you know my son's eleven and in the age of ai what should i be teaching him should be teaching him to coach should be teaching him are there other skills that are like super critical that i should be teaching him i think for kids it's all important what they learn it's rather that they have to train their brain muscle so whatever helps to train their brain muscle is great video games i mean well that's it makes kids more yeah like way more but there's downside that they may just find it's so fun that everything else will look boring but i think the coding is single best way to train your brain like it's almost like jane it's almost like lifting weights right and and also it's addictive so it's one of the best ways of training your brain where you actually like doing that similar to different computer games but without a downside like you will never see someone you know and going mad because they they write coat to much so at some point to get tired of it but remedy the games you never get tired it's like it's too cool to do that so i would still learn to coach there's a lot of people who've have been highly successful started video games zone and that was almost like a a gateway drug into coding and just getting interested into more technology i think like elon musk there's a long list of people yeah yeah like that right and i'm kind of the same way i like i made money playing video games when i was a kid i definitely got on the side of almost went crazy from it like literally was playing way too much i was playing ever quest i was like not player on ever quest that used to call ever crack but i also do feel like there is a creative element that comes from games in moderation i think too much or at least two x for too long of a period i think maybe for a short term period like actually the deep immersion is actually quite good i think there's also a creative element with games too that people take for granted but you i mean there is a theory i have is that we will exit the offline world and will be just playing games or being in vr because that's where everything is having now yeah and if that's the future than being closer to the game industry is probably smart because that's where the money will be made in fifteen years from now last question this actually kinda of somewhat related to what you just said i guess yeah imagine you had a time machine john and you traveled to the year twenty fifty what do you see what's different what's not different you know what's the world like alright that's interesting i think we're gonna see nothing almost so no baby wait wait a minute what do what what do you mean i think they're will be buildings mh totally little locked and there were people in the buildings buildings because i have no windows nothing and there be people inside their connected to the computers using neural link direct brain interface with the computer people basically yeah exactly so basically it's similar to the wall you know like that's on the future i want but something tells me that that's inevitable that we're gonna end up having the wall like the future because we're just having there now and ai and accumulate raw robots will make everything super chip and eventually free yeah and then humans will have to invent games so that they can do something because there's is nothing actually they have to do like everything's is optional okay that will make games where we actually compete and there is some game statues game with error games yeah and then when they invent the games the games will be first off offline an online but eventually online games will win versus the offline because they be more interesting because things like v three will help i get part of it and i agree part of it love the book ready player when i read the book way before you know the movie came out and all that yeah and at the end you know people kinda get off of the technology in the games a little bit right it's like and there may be like a transition area here where we're like yeah people definitely are using it way too much but you've seen this in san francisco where people yeah they use technology a lot but also people love to go out for hikes stuff now like it's super common that you go out for meetings you know hiking and and and whatnot right and get off of technology as much as possible i think you'll see that a lot of people will actually spend less time with technology and then the technology does a lot of the boring work they don't wanna do and they can actually get out more and then they'll be like some people will be like crazy about the games and they'll do like all the time and for other people be like i'm gonna go do that with my wife tonight for like two hours we're gonna like kinda just yeah do some game or some watch some movie or some new kind of you know interactive experience that's my hope actually okay let's focus on that i wanna i i i'm a positive future i don't want the pod people like sounds horrible yeah exactly so like like one of the thing i do is i promote kids for founders so i whenever i went mid founders i felt like you should have kids and then they tell me i have no time when i tell them just use more of ai and then you have more time when i had my son i thought i didn't have time went had ended did it and the best decision i ever made and i used to take him around like business meetings all the time no that's cool no one else that i was like why do i don't stand like why they wouldn't do him like i'm like he's getting to hang out with like all these like silicon valley like ceos there with me and getting to hear these conversations and he you know he learned so much from just like hearing those conversations and like for people they would never hear any of that you know i was like silicon come valley people but also i just to have an a office in japan town in san francisco we have like artist parties and an artist would come over and like draw up my whiteboard and all this kinda crazy stuff and he got to see that side to the more creative side and and he would participate he'd start drawing with them and i was just like if you have a company that's actually like one the best times i have a kid like you can actually it's like amazing education they would never get anywhere else if you actually somewhat include them it's like one the best experiences they possibly could have yeah i mean i work from home and when it's day and not nights my kids come over and they just what do you do which way i do yeah for example i'm doing these prototypes with lovable and then they asked me where i do and i tell them what i do and then i'll let them prompt it yeah and they prompt it and then you know it brings some fresh ideas into what i do so some of the things i have i actually asked my kids to give me some random ideas or random prompts and then it makes things more creative for me so yeah you're gonna have to increase their allowance right like what are their ideas takes off i put them as c founders in that case yeah yeah this been awesome is be fun yeah thanks maybe tell the people listening where they can find you like where they find you online if you if there's a certain website you wanna push people to whether it's you i think there was the seo bot a i dot com which i'm gonna be checking out but anything else as well yeah i'm on x and linkedin and subs it's john rush x the handle and i share everything i do every day every month i share my plans for the month every last day of the month i share what i have done during the month and then people tell me oh my god it's a lot you're done and i say it's because of the agents i built so that's basically my life seventy can fight me there and follow me there yeah and and and if for anyone listening whether you like own a business or you're like an individual i mean i think there's like so much you can learn from this episode like if i ran a business i mean you know you probably should have like a division in your company where you are using ai agents to crank out ideas that are beneficial to your main company yeah and then you could spin those off and have aa try those and the ones at work didn't actually double down and put resources and people on those projects i think so many companies should be doing that i don't know whether or not yeah i think this is really good idea i think all corporations should have this little ai factories yep within where people just try to innovate within into rather than waiting you know for innovation from outside that's so smart so much easier to do out now too right like one person or less or zero people to to get started nice start with one person like find the most creative person in your organization and let them do that full time crank out twenty ideas a week yeah maybe you find one good one a month and then actually like turn that like a new business unit yeah i think everyone should be doing that but it's been awesome john yeah thanks the

hey welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and in today's episode we're talking to the senior vice president of ai product over at cisco now if you're not familiar with cisco we're going to break down exactly what cisco does and their role in the sort of ai infrastructure in today's episode but that's not really the exciting part of what we're gonna get into we're going to talk about things like how ai is leading to this army of ai agents that are coming how we can prevent attacks like prompt injection attacks and our guest on today's episode dj sam is going to tell us about the new ai canvas that cisco is working on this combination of like ai chat generative user interface and real time problem solving all in one tool and in my opinion it is the future of what ai is gonna look like it was one of the first times in a long time where i saw an example or a demo of something that felt really really game changing to showcase this model what we are announcing for the very first time is a completely reimagine way that ai is gonna help you manage your entire state and it's called ai canvas it's a completely rei reimagine user interface in fact it is a generative ui that means that it generates dashboards on the fly in a multi modal way so dj come on up what you're seeing here on the left hand side is the ai assistant where you cannot use natural language to be able to communicate the cameras and on the right is where the agents and humans are gonna work together to be able to solve problems i'm just gonna type in here troubleshoot this ticket now this is where it starts to get really cool the deep network model that you just announced is gonna start breaking down the ticket and analyzing that it needs more data it now is gonna go to and pick out the packet loss trends when it's gonna generate the ui for you so you just saw that it it created a widget that's that widget was not something you built it actually generated the rigid ai generates that widget recognizes that the next thing that you're gonna need is a time series data and so you can see it's constantly thinking right here at the bottom and it's pulling data that it needs it recognizes now that it needs data from thousand eyes not just from mer morocco to be able to show you exactly a packed visualization that tells you where this outage might be happening mh now cisco is really really focused on the enterprise side but almost everything we do on the computer on the internet with ai cisco actually has a hand in it which is why i couldn't have been more excited to sit down with their head of ai in this episode so i'm not gonna waste any more of your time let's go ahead and dive right in with dj sam from cisco this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis bran and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today let's start with your role at cisco so what what's your role at cisco and like what does your day to day look like yeah i'm a of which stands a senior vice president of products for ai software and platform came into cisco about a couple years ago through an acquisition i was a ceo founder of a company called armor blocks okay and we got acquired into cisco and since then my charter has been to make cisco a lot more ai native and about four months ago we spun out of the security organization and formed a brand organization for ai software platform i reported the chief product officer gt patel yeah and our goal is to build ai software products we're building a product called ai defense which helps secure the use of ai security and privacy is super important as you think about how customers are trying to adopt ai the second thing we're working on is building the ai assistance that go seamlessly in the different parts of the product that's like think of it as having a chat gp baked into every single one of your cisco products right and then the third one that we're doing we launched today at cisco live as called the ai canvas yes and and and it's it's one of the coolest projects that i worked on and i'm i'm tremendously excited about the potential of what it can do very cool i do wanna talk about ai canvas a bit more just a minute but before we do so my audience is really more consumer i wouldn't really say they're super enterprise focused yeah and i wanna help them better understand like what cisco does so can you just in your own words sort of explain like what does cisco do like when somebody asks like what is cisco as a company what is their role and and the bigger picture of everything now if you think about it it's oh today when we fire our ipads we see like you know watch a a video and netflix there's a lot of mechanics that's go be that's going behind this to make that happen so if think about it this right it's your netflix on your ipad is coming from a wifi access point that's sitting inside of your home or your office and those access points are connected to a router and that router is connected to a service provider like a comcast or you know pick your favorite service provider right as a back call and then from that service provider it's connected to the broader you know autonomous systems of the internet like you know practically like all of the servers that are hosting those files if you're watching mission impossible on your ipad somebody has to actually host that mission impossible files somewhere it's ringing it over the internet right the servers that netflix app are the data centers that are essentially hosting that file cisco builds every single part of that infrastructure that wifi router you know we build that you know right the router that the wifi router connects to in the back hall we build that you know the xfinity connection or the comcast connection that you have in the comcast uses you know cisco products to be able to connect all of those things mh and then the data center that netflix hosts those movies inside of cisco helps build that whether it's the hyper scale or your own private data center think about it this way we build the infrastructure for the internet and now we're building that infrastructure for the modern ai ear gotcha cool well that sort of leads perfectly into my next question so i know a little bit more about like when it comes to the network and all those pieces you just mentioned how does ai fit into the mix you know our firm belief is you know as you'd start to think about what's happening inside of the enterprises even when you think about the consumers that you talk about every single consumer is consuming from an enterprise mh if the consumer goes to an airbnb and at the airbnb you our company is an enterprise that actually needs to buy all these equipment and so on and so forth that they go to starbucks they go to you know every single thing that they like mh that's an enterprise and and and cisco powering all of those enterprises but here's what's it's about to happen right every single one of those enterprises are starting to adopt ai to be able to make their capabilities a whole lot different right you want you have your starbucks rewards app they wanna build an ai app that'll make that starbucks rewards even more interesting and enticing yeah you think about air airbnb the air airbnb actually has a chad concierge ridge right that is powered by ai so you're gonna start to see every application becoming an ai powered application and when that happens you know cisco suddenly becomes tremendously relevant from a safety and security perspective because everything's moving from like these chat apps to like an agent applications and that was the whole topic of conversation today right right as you start to see the transition happen you're gonna have to reimagine what your infrastructure is gonna look like all the way from like the the the network switches and routers to the security that you're using to the ability to monitor all of these applications that are running inside of the environment you're gonna need ob ability that tells you what these agents are doing you're gonna have not just tens hundreds you're gonna have billions of agents right and when you start to see that happen you better be ready with they infrastructure that makes sense be very cool very cool so you've demoed the ai canvas i do wanna talk about it i was telling you before we hit record that yeah out of the whole keto that was probably the highlight for me of when you demo that on stage this really really cool you made my day this can you quickly just explain what the ai canvas is and and break it down for us yeah so if you think about a lot of the experience that we've seen so far you've had it as a conversational interface and a a chatbot that you go out and you start communicating with a response back right but we also recognize that when you're doing a more complex set of tasks you're gonna need something more than just this fm conversation that just keeps going back and forth mh so we thought about as long and hard and we have a phenomenal design team you know by the way some of these designers are the world's best designers so they've sat down and they thought about like how do we solve this problem and he came up with this notion of like hey what if we think about this as a you know there they're tools like mirror boards or fig boards right that you used to be able to design software what if you thought about this whole management plane as a board or a canvas right and so we explored that idea a little bit further and we said we needed a place where agents and humans can work together mh and that really was the kernel of the idea for us to be able to say let's go build ai canvas where you have a conversational interface but along with that we're gonna give generative ui yeah yeah as opposed to generative ai we're saying listen you can have ui that are completely generated right it's a generative ui is gonna be the way that people interact with ai and agents going forward when we combine those concepts into the product that we launched called ai canvas right so let's say one of the cisco customers how would a cisco customer actually leverage that because what it looked like on stage was it was almost like a one of their customers could call in with maybe a network issue they could get into this sort of canvas dashboard and help them problem solve within moments because of ai that's exactly now you you're spot on right so essentially think about it this way a lot of these enterprises that we're talking to have more than one cisco product so what ends it happening is you know we're starting on by saying listen we're gonna connect the dots across all of these products that you have because we're gonna help troubleshoot some of these things we're also gonna up third party tools to sort of interface with this like if you remember the demo we started out by saying hey we're gonna start with a servicenow ticket right because people have gone into servicenow down another product when they've gone ahead had raised the ticket we take that information from that third party we start breaking it down and then we look at what are the products that they model that that we have built right now it's called a deep network model mh it's a new model that we launched which is being trained on all the forty years of network knowledge that cisco has then that model now figures out based on the ticket say hey what other data do i need to go out and get and then calls that respective product pulls that data and makes it incredibly easy for you to start cor all of that stuff as opposed to going to one dashboard going into another one another one and then copy pasting a bunch of stuff creating sticky notes and then putting it on and then and then then putting it together like an old school detective that would do you know we're we're simplifying that creating a a brand new experience for it yeah yeah i mean again it was my favorite demo of the whole keynote it was really really cool congratulations on the internet actually holding up while you were demoing why here's something that i haven't talked to a lot of people about for that demo to work perfectly you needed a lot of the cisco products to work right the networking had to work the vpn from a security bar you perspective had to work we had to segment the network so that know the wifi that you all had when you're were sitting in the audience or we're about nine thousand people in the audience inside of that room the wifi had to be segmented and such your way that the demo work on a different network than the the network that everybody else was browsing on all of that covered by cisco yeah right so guess what we're really good at this stuff yeah yeah i mean the proof of concept right there used it in the old in the demo itself yeah the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your so earlier today g two was talking to kevin will and he asked a question that i really really liked so i'm gonna steal and ask you the same question oh boy so he asked kevin what is something about ai that's really surprised you that maybe you didn't see coming it's a great question one of the things to me is you know i always imagined you know ai would take away some of the the most mundane tasks like things that i i'm not you know tremendously interested in and while that's happening i never thought that ai would start to do creative stuff right to me that i was genuinely surprising and especially if you start to see what the sorta model from opening ai doing right to like what google announced with v models you're starting to see high quality video along with audio you know be created where i can now sit down and write a story board and then pass it to a model and the model generates a full think together which used to take several months as you probably know right you know better than most people like just to be able to create photo realistic you know video realistic things it was just so hard yeah and it's been extremely surprising to see ai take a really on a shot at being creative yeah so yeah we got like ai or ai images almost before we got ai philly got our spreadsheets for us that's exactly right and you know is isn't that mind boggling yeah it's kinda crazy yeah so wanna ship gears a little bit and talk about some of the like risks of ai a little bit yep so you know as ai becomes more commonplace place yeah and it becomes more accessible to anybody right that also means that the people with malicious intent have easier access to be able to code things up and and things like that how do you see us sort of like solving that problem or i mean it feels like it's gonna be a constant cat mouse game of yeah we figure out ways to stop the malicious people but then they figure out new ways so i'm curious like how are you guys approaching the sort of security issues with malicious code and things like that matt it's a real problem yeah i'll be straight up right you know we sort of saw this coming in some ways because we've been doing security for a long time right and i have been a security guy and myself like i've being on both sides i've been a developer that complain about a security guy and i'll be the security guy to complain about the developers so i know i think i do about this now here's what's happening right with with ai safety and security absolutely paramount a lot of folks are hesitant to adopt ai because safety and security still not fully figured out we sort of saw this coming earlier and in january we launched a product called ai defense what ai defense does is it helps organizations understand which applications inside of their organization is using ai it helps validate the models to make sure that these models don't have vulnerabilities abilities because guess what if the models have vulnerabilities abilities you can have attackers use techniques like comp injection attacks or context window overload a meta prompt extraction and then cost the model to do some unnatural things right that can be really challenging especially if you start putting these models inside of my production environments and last but not the least you need to have time guard rails like when users are using ai applications you wanna make sure that it's safe and it's secure now safety and security two different things though safety is all about you know making sure that the model doesn't is not you know poisoned in any way or doesn't inherently have biases and so on and so forth and a lot of model providers are working hard to make sure that their models are aligned but again the problem is it's not all the same way every model behaves slightly differently right right and then from a security perspective attackers are attacking these models non nonstop with newer techniques it's back in the day when the internet came up everybody was using these techniques like denial of service that this to be a ddos and syntax and all of that stuff we're starting to see similar things happen but in a completely new dimension from an ai point of view so you need a solution that actually you know secures us and a safe and solve the security problem as well in a unified manner and that's really what we're doing with the ai defense but as somebody that's thinking about safety and security you gotta make sure that you know you have something in place that checks off a box gotcha cool i wanna ask you the jobs question right what are your thoughts on you know obviously there's this narrative of ai is taking jobs is it something people should be worried about and what advice would you give people that are either entering the workforce or maybe looking to go on a new career path i think here's what i'd say right i don't believe people are losing their jobs to ai right i think people that are using ai are gonna be farther ahead and people that don't use ai so if you really think about how this job equation is gonna go you know every single time somebody that knows how to use ai is gonna move forward faster and it's gonna get those jobs right so the only advice would be to say hey get really really comfortable using ai know give you a quick analogy for this right i'll use the analogy of using computers mh when you thought about the world before computers exist you know people came in and said that was the are the computers gonna take away of a job right if i were to tell you that right now we would all off there's no way a laptop my macbook pro is not gonna take my job right you still need a human operator sitting down and topic on this keyboard to be able to make that happen right so we're in a very similar sort of you know stage right now where you better learn how to use that laptop and your spreadsheets and your microsoft word and so on and so forth and that was true for the era before and now it's true right now that you better know how to use ai understand how you can improve your productivity yeah the help of ai so i think that is the path to success yeah i couldn't agree i think kevin wheel his analogy of the hidden figures and how they used to use the slide rules and write all the math down by hand and now we look back at that and think well that's crazy that's crazy in the future we'll be looking at we actually used to write all of that mono code by hand why and that's happening already yeah in the and i think we're gonna see some big step function change in that as like we're in the exponent that we talk about i think we're at the beginning part of that exponent there's so much more to go and ai is one of those really really steep exponent that we're gonna see a lot of interesting things happen yeah absolutely so this is my last question is kind of a two part question what excites you most about what you can do with ai today and what excites you most about what you'll be able to do with at ai in let's say a year or so for the first one i think it's the the deep research models the models that actually you know when you go out and say hey go do this particular task for me you know starts to go out and browse like you know fifty different websites collects all of the data sits down s symbolizes the whole thing i got a phd almost about fifteen years ago right one of the hardest things is a phd student was doing the literature survey putting all of that stuff together and then sitting down reading them summarizing them and then forming a point of view on a matter and i may not choose to use that point of view of that perspective at all but it's helpful to get to that point of view now that whole thing what used to take i don't know maybe about like months hey you know it can be now completed in like the matter of minutes right in a fifteen minutes later i've got a very well thought i've response like i've looked at all of these research literature here's where the answer is i think that's mind boggling truly you know and it's available here and now that's so cool i feel like that's the first little like taste of agents we all got to it's absolutely hundred percent that is one of the best use of agents you know and into your second question what am i really excited about matt i'm stoked about the progress of we're making an embody the ai physically ai right you're starting to see robots you know sort of start to understand the world in a way that we haven't we've never seen before right because you have these world models that are starting to make you know correlations with images that they're consuming being able to understand depth being able to understand like hey no this is an object that a break and then you know having a semantic understanding of the world i think the leaps and bounds that are happening over there is is mind boggling and i think we're gonna see really really interesting innovations you know yeah came away very soon yeah haven't even saw a booth here in the cisco expo where it was like tuning guitars i don't know if you saw that booth haven't seen there's a robot that takes a a pick and that plugs the guitar string it listens and then it actually the robot goes up and twist it and like tuned the guitar that worry you so cool i gotta check this out right now now know i gotta gotta find out right ass one of the coolest booths i've seen so hey man i agree well dj this has been amazing thank you so much music appreciate at the time thanks so much for having email well i appreciate a deb thanks for the chat