Truth, Lies and Work

we won't to meet patrick fa he's a behavioral scientist a best bestselling author and the guy who spent a year deliberately making himself really uncomfortable i take the science of psychology and think about how to practically use it and apply it with this experiment i was seeing if i could apply it to happiness and making life kinda more meaningful actually trying to slow down time a little bit patrick made a commitment to do fifty two new things in one year one a week which involved him joining a cult could strangers and visiting a side or the name of science and here is what he discovered the experiences that made him the most uncomfortable but also the most transformative you haven't lived until you felt a strange man's g face between your hands as you stare to his eyes for a minute which has an introvert interview i absolutely hated that but the struggle but awkward the challenge with actually what made it meaningful this insight completely flips our understanding of workplace happiness because we spent billions trying to make work comfortable and frictionless but patrick's research suggest we might be making people more miserable in the process today we're asking what if the secret to engage teams isn't more comfort but the right kind of productive struggle patrick's has got a framework called marvel that could revolutionize how you think about employee experience this could challenge everything you think you know about workplace well hello and welcome to trade lies and work the award winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is leanne i'm a charged occupational psychologist my name is ally and i'm a business owner and we are here to help you simplify the science of black our guest day patrick fa is an applied behavior of scientist who's written best bestselling books in manipulation fake news and marketing psychology but his most interesting experiment was personal spanning an entire year doing fifty two completely new experiences from as we said joining cults to learn cuddle tags what makes patrick story really interesting isn't the world experiences it's a science behind why uncomfortable challenging moment create deeper meaning than pure pleasure and that has profound implications for how we design work experiences his research reveals that while we're obsessed with making work comfortable and we might actually be draining the meaning right out of it so after this break we're gonna hear about patrick's most transformative experiences and discover why struggle might be the secret ingredient your team is missing you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems south familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and their fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new sign ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better i'm in an applied behavioral scientist meaning i take the science of psychology and think about how to practically use it and apply it so normally i do this for money reasons do this but with this experiment i was seeing if i could apply it to happiness and making life kinda more meaningful and actually trying to slow down time a little bit which i know sounds odd but we don't really psychologically think about time in terms of clocks and calendars when we look back on our lives we think about in terms of holidays and weddings and and fun nights out and things like that but yeah normally in my day job i'm helping with marketing advertising i do a bit of academia and lecturing i've written and c some peer reviewed papers and things like price psychology and facebook psychology and a couple of books one of them is a sunday times best seller about how not to be manipulated by fake news real news social media everything else and the other book is about how to manipulate people through marketing advertising to how to make messages more attention grabbing and memorable and effective so this experiment feels like a bit of a pivot then from what your normal work is so tells a bit more a bit more about it where the idea come from and your motivation for wanting to try it yeah there were a couple of things really which kind of came together at the same time so we were just coming out of lockdown so all of the kind of did transformation that happened off the back of that so a lot more remote working screen time went up a lot and then i also i should say my wife also had a baby so that was a big kind of life shaking up event i actually for my book on how to not get manipulated spoke to somebody who escaped or survived a cult and a multi level she went from a cult to a pyramid scheme that she she escaped those things and she was saying that she joined a pyramid scheme after she just had a a baby because when you have these big life events it tends to kind of disrupt a normal way of thinking and and new things happen so that was going on in my my personal life and then i was on holiday kind of extended honeymoon slash digital no type thing and we were in croatia and we've been away for a month and we phoned someone back home and they said oh have you been away from month already it it only feels like yesterday but for us it felt like a lot longer than a month it felt like six months or something it it gone by a lot more slowly because we were experiencing new things all the time we went to couture in montenegro this this old town full of cats and and climbed a castle and saw the bay when we were falling a sleeping in croatia we could hear walls hall in the distance we had all these new rich meaningful memories and that kind of slowed down time for us so i realized very much that against the contrast of being indoors on my laptop all the time over the last few years that actually what makes life meaningful and happy and and something worth remembering is actually just doing stuff getting out there and experiencing new things so all of these things together oh and also i did some research for that book about how to not get manipulated where i joined a cult which i wasn't really looking forward to i had to go away for a whole weekend to this cult cut kind of light cult in the woods for a weekend and i really wasn't looking forward to it but my c is very stubborn and and very much by disney me into it and it was so kind of transformative and special and meaningful i mean maybe the cop framework launch me i don't know but it's really great experience and so all of these things together just really made me realize that hey i need to actually get out of this routine and the screens and and go and try creating you think and i mean fifty two is quite a commitment where did that timeline come from yeah it seemed easy at the time it didn't really seem like a big deal job but actually yet it's it was hard work planning planning them they were harder to plan than you might think for example i wanted to see a like kind a psychic reading i thought this will be easier i'll just google psychic near me no it's very difficult actually to find someone and the weird thing is a couple of days later i was driving past a pub in my house and knows this big sign psychic every thursday so i almost feel like you know psychic cr it was out there in the universe but planning them was difficult thinking of them was difficult coming up with fifty two things harder than you think and then it's also quite expensive i mean it was more expensive than it needed to be most of them were free but i did things like went to monaco to to go to a casino which i didn't need to get to monaco for that but yeah it was fairly expensive in the end but once you kind of get the ball rolling it it just kind of happens and you tell people about it and they give you their ideas if anyone's thinking of doing it you don't have to make such a huge commitment you could do one you'd being a month for example what was some of your your highlights say if you were staying if somebody wanted to try this which which ones would you recommend oh well that's really difficult i really i really enjoyed meeting people that i had car of or that may a a disagreed with politically i'll give you an example i think is a fairly safe example is is just stop oil which i understand the intentions but i just see them in the news that i think god they're so annoying like throwing paint on paintings and and laying down the front of cars where i hate these people and then so i went to one of their meetups and it was so eye opening to kinda of meet them and no longer were they these car in my mind that they're real flesh about people with hopes and dreams and big fears and anxieties and it really did something for me in terms of empathy so there was that there was also i went to my little pony convention again bro in my mind with these kind of weird cartoon ironically car but then you know i met the actual people and it changed how i see them a bit i mean not completely but it it changed it a bit i went to bd club which is not you know each of their own everyone needs to hop but it's not mike up tea but it's very interesting again to to see these as real people so that's one of the things i'd really take away one of my favorite things to do anything involving people and also anything involving something that i didn't really want to do so for example a cuddle workshop where i have to cuddle strangers you haven't lived until you felt as strange man's g face between your hands as you stare into his eyes for a minute which as an introvert interval i absolutely hated that but the struggle the awkward the challenge it was actually what made it meaningful so those are the if if you're gonna start anywhere i would start with what you really not want to do what's something that you would say god i've never do that i think you have to immediately put that on the list and then anything where you're going and getting out of your comfort zone socially i guess the meeting people and talking to that normally wouldn't i have to follow up on some of these experiences i mean you mentioned first of all that that the cult call a cult light i and it was transformative tell us about that because i'm sure there'll be eyebrows raised by some people listening to this so for that book i joined two cults one i think is safe to say it is a cult although i can't say that because they're very this is so i actually wrote a chapter on that but i couldn't we couldn't publish it because they the ti and their lawyers sent this big letter when we asked if they had any comments you can probably guess who that right they did a personality test all that the other one was i think it's a little unfair to call it cult but it you know it's sensational so i do but what they do essentially is kind of like a psychological therapy for men so so it's a men's meet up in the woods where they take away your phone and your jewelry and take away your name and give you a number and then you kind of do these therapy exercises where another person acts like your dad and you shout at him and get out all of your frustrations invent that you might have against your father there was one point where we all sat around naked talking about our our sexual insecurities and stuff which sounds crazy i guess in the way it was but it was it was yeah it was transformative it was definitely memorable i'll tell you that but it was just getting out there and having these like showers outside at six am in the morning and doing a sweat lodge and these kinds of things dancing around a a bon fire at night it's cath pathetic in a way it was it was there's this psychological principle called disrupt and reframe where if you want to change people's behaviors and habits so you have to kinda grab them and take them a little bit you have to get people out of an old habit if you want to introduce a new one i think in that sense it was very powerful because it was very odd new experience that that kind of shakes you off a bit and it allows you to break off break cold habits to kind of break them down and get free of them a bit so cock i mean they did lots of coke things like they they took away my name and when i arrived actually everyone was sat in this tiny room and they're all kind of cramped together it was almost gu guantanamo bay light like it was very uncomfortable and they all had to squeeze in there it turned out they had to wait in that room until everyone had a ride and i was about hour late because i'd stopped off for burger king on the way so they definitely use these kind of coke ish techniques but i would say a good effect there's something i'd imagine quite liberating about that as well kind of breaking all all of those those social norms yeah i can i can see i can see the the cath pathetic aspect of of that and i i also wanna ask you about the side did you go and were they right did they predict your future i went to the psych it was very interesting she said some quite wise things to me she said a lot of bo as well if i'm being honest but she said some things about funnily enough about business about how i should make sure i read contract properly and protect my ip she told me about she kind of psychic cr guest with a lot of help from me that i had a friend who was going through a tough time so she was like oh you have a friend called george who's died and i said no i have a friend called george but it's not dead but i guess i then she goes well he's going through some tough times and i said no but i have another friend who is and she went yes yes that's the one so i i'm not really convinced that she is psychic however she gave me some really good advice about that friend and about as i said business and that was a theme that i found with a couple of these things was that insight and wisdom came from surprising sources so from the psychic for example and also from an act ac so i had this problem with my my mouth where i had kind of tin and and numbness in my tongue sometimes and i went to doctors and they couldn't see anything wrong i couldn't find thing wrong even went to a to a specialist and i said i have a funny feeling in my mouth and he diagnosed it as all stevia which means funny feeling in the mouth so i was a best group three hundred pounds last spent but then this ac he told me to have too much fire any idea and i have a hot mouth i need to drink more water and so i started drinking more water and it actually helped and it's basically gone away so i wasn't drinking enough water i guess but none of the experts or the doctors told me that so as as kind of crazy as it was it actually really helpful so again getting out of your bubble and and seeking wisdom where you might not normally find it and it's suppose that it sounds a lot as well like it's it's facilitating that reflection and intros reflection that that was quite powerful yeah absolutely i mean with i really enjoyed it and i have people who really rave about it but has really helped them with with illnesses and and physical ailments for me it was just the fact that i was kind of pinned down like a butterfly to a table for an hour and i couldn't move and that to just be there reflect on my thoughts which was a very similar experience in the flotation tank just not being distracted for an hour not being on my phone or or emails or whatever it might be and just having time to reflect is actually extremely powerful because that allows you even so subconsciously to face up to your anxieties and and deal with them and and you come away from it feeling much better patrick's told us about his year of radical experimentation we're talking court weekends psychic readings but here's what it actually gets really interesting for leaders yeah after the short break we're gonna rejoin the interview where patrick talks about the difference between pleasure and purpose and why your employees might be craving struggle without even knowing it don't go anywhere hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like it it is of course brought to you by the hopes hubspot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the perspective of a millennial something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse an important voice to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love love phil a fellow millennial who's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh ashley has the best name to be said in the x fuck voice ash barbara done welcome back let's discover why forced fun might actually be a good thing and her leaders might be able to use patrick's marvel's framework to create genuinely transformative workplace experiences i think it's such an awesome way to learn more as you say about about ourselves about other people and but what does the science say what does the science say about going through these experiences this novelty and how it links to our happiness and well being and so the science says first of all that experiences make us happy especially compared to material things so there was a think diary study that found that someone who just purchased something experiential like a dinner with friends for example versus to someone who bought something material the people who bought something experience or was six percent happier which is statistically significant so and there's other studies of this as well but experiences generally do make you happier and there's all sorts of reasons to that might be because they're social and we're very social creatures and we'd like being around other people it's cath biotic also there was a study i think i'm not sure if it came out recently but i saw it recently on mind wandering and it found our activities or moments with more mind wandering tend to be less happy so if you're kind of rum or reflecting on things you tend to be less happy then if you're just getting stuck in and doing something and getting lost in something which is flow of course one of the things that makes people happy is spending time with kids i think the only thing that makes people happier than that is making kids according to that study so if you're like doing something in your absorbed something you're not kind of rum on on your anxieties and your stress so i think that's what makes you you're happy from it as well and then there's also as i said the the memory component if you're doing new things meaningful things these are just stored more rich via memory and it kind of as i've had slows time down a little i think i know our listeners and know someone gonna be thinking this is really cool i'm gonna try one new thing every week they'll be good great that i've got kids i've got a full time job i've not got the time how can we approach this in a way that is maybe a little bit more digestible well i think there's a psychological principle that actually ko called incremental so you need to take people through the the lobby before you show them the penthouse so you don't have to commit to this huge daunting fifty two new things projects can just do up with bread crumbs just try something new here and there i mean since that year i've now committed to doing just something every weekend typically with my family it doesn't have to be a big thing going to bird well for instance going even just going popping out to nand on a sunday but just getting out of the house and just having some new mini experience because actually in that year some of the most memorable experiences were quite small and it was the min which made them special so i really enjoyed seeing my first sunrise i actually purposefully for like sat down and watch the sun come up for the first time and that's not a big deal the sun rises every day right but there were all these little details like the little birds flirting and playing with each other the punching the the ice to my boots this small thing got made it so they don't need to be grand things on my there were two things on my list i didn't get to do i wanted to go to north korea and i wanted to go cage diving because shots are my biggest fear and i was like if i have to do anything that i don't want to do it probably be that i didn't get to do those and but my point is it doesn't have to do those although north korea's borders are now open if if anyone wants to do that yeah feel free to come with me it doesn't have to be those it can be small things like sun sunrise where i had my first donna kebab yeah they don't have to be huge thing i'm wondering then it can this then potentially be an extension of hobbies we already have so for example i love to cook so if my new thing is where every month i'm gonna do a new recipe like i'd never attempt do i feel i don't think i like or can it be an extension of things we're already doing i think it depends what you're you're you're trying to get out of it so i'm i picked up the guitar again for the first time in in many years and i'm getting more value out of trying to learn songs that i wouldn't have before if that makes sense so they use different techniques different kinds of rift etcetera because it's that getting out of your comfort zone getting out of what you already know i think it has so much more i don't know exponential power to to learn what you're doing whereas if you're just kind of in your safety zone you're not really learning that much new however i think if you're going for the kind of really memorable and and transformative experiences then you need to just abandon and everything that you currently know and do and just try something completely new and walk so with that in mind then because as you say it sounds like the the the experiences that pushes out of our confidence are and make us more uncomfortable we'll have more of a transformative impact than activities that we might find pleasurable where's that what is that difference in between pleasure and and meaning and why is it important that it's really interesting so there's some psychological research and happiness that says there's two dimensions to happiness pleasure and purpose so having like a lovely i don't know i mean this is not the height of pleasure for example going to nand and anything eating the the perry chips and and and a chicken burger very pleasurable he and that does contribute to happiness to an extent but i think too much of that and too little purple actually makes people mister wolf which is something i think kind of we're seeing at the minute you know we're very comfortable and there's these trends like having a cold shower or or or dipping yourself in ice water in the morning and i think the whole point of that is to kind of reset your pleasure centers to give yourself deliberately some pain some light pain and and struggle because then the rest of the day doesn't seem so difficult whereas if you're if you're happy and relaxed and uncomfortable all the time the little stresses actually cause a lot more anxiety and stress than they should so too much pleasure probably a bad thing purpose is interesting because you know we live in an age where brands and tech forms are trying to make things as easy and frictionless for us as possible that again that might be making us miserable actually a little bit of friction in the right way a little bit of struggle is actually a good thing as i found with these experiences you know they were awkward difficult that actually made them more more meaningful so i think there's a great opportunity for experiences to add friction but in a in a good good way to give people perfect okay so so far we've heard about patrick personal transformation through these really uncomfortable experiences but i'm thinking about our listeners who are managing teams people with limited budgets and even more limited time exactly because while joining a cult might be transformative i'm not sure mother's our departments would approve that as team building but patrick's insight about struggle creating meaning now that's something every leader can use and this connects to something we're seeing everywhere really the back to office debates the discussions about forced fun questions about how to create authentic connection in hybrid teams what if the answer isn't making work more comfortable but making it more intentionally challenging in the right ways so here's patrick explaining how leaders can apply his discoveries without sending their teams to cuddle workshops so how could teams or leaders use this idea in these principles to to build that connection that meaningful work so i think any time that you're creating experiences for people you're going to be fostering bonding between people and colleagues so back in my young man single days i had a a principal to take a date to a second location so you go from the restaurant then to a bar or or whatever it might be and because you're going into that experience together and you're you're you're experiencing it together that creates kind of social links and and bonding and you're kind of tackling facing something together so it's very good i think from a morale and teamwork perspective also from an empathy perspective if you can get people to see say their colleagues perspectives or or live life doing experience that a colleague does i know if a colleague does marathon maybe that's not the best example but a colleague does marathons get everyone else to do that so you can with the colleague you can kind see like from their their perspective a bit resulting in empathy yeah just more experience as i would say i like this idea of of experiencing something that a colleague might what what springs to mind for me is having worked in in kind of operational delivery there was always a bit of tension with compliance because there is things that we wanted to do in the way that they they insisted we needed to be doing so it tim's like what would like job swaps or kind of shadowing and that type of thing might be effective yeah i think so i think that's a really good idea job swaps i like that and how about in terms of like the social because we hear a lot of organizations say you wanna have a fun culture and we want people to to have these shared experiences but they're often things like away days or going to the pub after work and kind of encroaching on an employee's time how do organizations use these principles so it's effective without seeming intrusive it's really difficult i suppose because as i said struggle is kind of part of effective experiences so in a way i've always not been the biggest fan of forced fund but now that i think about it after this i think forced fund might actually be a bit of a good thing if it's a bit awkward that's probably kind of the point and it it yeah it's the struggle and talented of it that makes her the experience meaningful so that's an interesting point you raised that it's usually an employee's time actually there's so much benefit to it in terms of well being social connection seeing things from other people's point of view and making life and work meaningful that it arguably it should be part of the job really rather than something that's tacked on outside of ours but most work is just you know set on on zoom calls and staring at the screen and that's when life goes by in a blink i think as an employee you probably want people have a different relationship with work right and not have this i guess like that tv show severance where your your your work life and your your not work life was so separated and i think that resonates because the work life is so screen based and often remote and indoors that you're not actually forming rich memories it's just just goes by in a blink right if you're on the laptop day you look back on the day don't really remember anything probably it's useful for leaders if actually people relate to work because something meaningful that they remember it actually connects deep creates deep connections in their memory which would involve experience of i can also imagine some people go oh well that's why we should make everyone go back to the office then so we have these experiences but it's not the point is more the intentional the experience of potential novelty of it and and and yet how how the team engages with it is that fair yeah absolutely i mean it's probably not popular but i do see the value of getting people to go to the office at least a little bit i do think it's important but absolutely yeah try and create more of an experience i suppose in the same way that retailers are trying to create more experience experiential shopping the way that's in london here the mayor has just announced that experiences are a big pillar of the economy for london marketers are doing more and more experienced marketing secret cinema type events vr and ar events these kind of things i think we you should probably bring that into the workplace and have experiential workplace of why not what would that what would that look like if you're in charge of of putting that together where would you start oh gosh that's a good question though that could be a home you a home new kind of industry i guess i can kinda think through this out loud i mean one thing i'm thinking is don't necessarily have to work in the same place every day or every be week now i mean there's remote working there's cafes there's parts why not mixed it up a bit i could be one way to do it so i did a project for an experience marketing company where we are collider and they designed these experiences for for brands and i found the psychological levers that make experiences more effective in marketing and we came up with this acronym marvel so m is for magic which is about making things emotional surprising and different so any kind of magic you could sprinkle into the work there of things that basically people haven't seen before that become the emotional peak of their day you know the peak end interval we remember the emotional peak so if you go on holiday you remember the jet skiing you don't remember the flight really as a rule because it very boring so i think the problem with work is that it tends to be the flight that people don't remember and then they maybe remember going to the pub afterwards which is the peak of bed day so can you bring in an emotional peak ideally a good one for the day the a is for adequacy which is just about meeting basic standards being comfortable having amenities which i think most workplaces do just fine but also going above and beyond those standards with little kind of surprise delight moments so companies do this already i guess with having pizza for lunch especially if people aren't expecting it and especially if it's a pizza from a nice pizza place for instance just those surprising to like moment top a lot the r is for relevance i guess that could be figuring out what your employees care about and bringing more of that into the workplace rather than just being this functional thing where employers often are just kind of extracting taking what they want from the employees you know not d generalize too much but could could go the other way a little bit and finding out what employees want and giving it to them being relevant it doesn't necessarily have costing been but people have hobbies and interest and b is for value which is about getting something out of the experience which you're again can be freebie b's people like gifts and things but it can also be information learning curiosity so any kind of anything new or interesting that you can bring into the workplace would be good e is for exchange which is about interactivity so can you have an element of of physicality about the workplace of of interacting with things you know typically google might have a a slide in the workplace i mean maybe that's a bit of a trait example but just things that people can physically interact with and not just be passive l is for labeling which is about branding but think that really applies here but i suppose the takeaway is what kind of sensory flash bowl impression are you leaving of the workplace is it somewhere with office chairs and halo and lights you know plastic tables that's probably not great versus if it's somewhere more kind of comfortable ball and and nice to be and then the final one that s is for social which i think we've talked about a lot can you foster those social connections between people i love that and i'm sorry for put you on the spot pat but that was brilliant and i can see i can see entrepreneur loving that as well like you say there's just so many little ways that they can add that little bit of magic or improve the relevance and i think particularly around as you say this whole conversation about people bringing them wholesale selves to work which sound a bit fluffy and a bit met but if you're talking about a way what would the what are they interested in what are their hobbies what are is valuable to them and bringing that into into that environment will be really powerful yeah absolutely especially with ai as it is there's certain you know there's pii and and data purchasing and stuff but i'm sure there's there's data that you can get on your employees and feed it into an l and it will give you really good creative relevant recommendations for things that they'd like i have to ask you about your whole experience and and kind of its impact on your happiness were you happier well i mean i was very unhappy to begin with so yeah in that sense yeah it definitely no it definitely did make me happier and also the lessons that i've taken forward from it i've definitely made me happier so i as a rule don't work weekends works except last weekend i did work i have to say but get released fee i don't work weekends anymore i'm quite like strict about that because weekends are very very very important for experiencing things spending time with family resting and that might sound obvious but i see some people seem to think weekends are disposable like elon elon musk says he works every weekend it's a superpower and i'm i don't think i don't know he's very successful so do i but but for me personally i don't function as well if i'm not taking that time to rest and experience new things and then all of the the the lessons that i learned have helped with happiness so things like empathy so i don't if i see a group like just the oil in the news you know they used to annoy me i don't really get annoyed by by things in the news anymore i actually don't watch the news at all to be honest but i i i i find it hard to dislike groups of people because i've kind of realized everyone's human everyone has their own motives everyone believes their believes everyone wants the best for themselves and their family generally speaking so that really opened my eyes and i think i'm happier for that you know i don't hold grudges or anything and i also learned kind of new things so when i went to the cuddle workshop i learned about mel hugs and arm chair hugs which are something that my wife now loves so she's definitely benefited from that what what are they so melting hug is where you go up to someone in new hug them and then you kind of breathe into them so as you exhale you kind of let both exhale together and not together an arm chair hug is where the the other person is sitting down and you sit behind them and with your legs and your arms you kind of envelop them like an arm answer oh and there they're they're higher quality hooks that's a good yeah i would say yeah they're def the melting hug is definitely because a normal hud can be a bit like i don't know superficial you know not really putting any effort into it whereas melting hook you're really getting into the hug love that i suppose that the breathing aspect as well we'll looking at with there okay so your wife is your wife is getting high quality hooks which every wife should oh and how about how about with your son has it impacted any of your approach to parenting definitely in terms of the fact that i'm now very deliberate about doing things with him we have a new baby nine weeks old so oh thanks with with both of them eventually thank you other than that i'm not sure i learned anything about parenthood i probably should have done something parent related but i'm looking forward to kind of doing crazy stuff with him when he goldman they i heard when you're speaking on on phil show that you were talking about how you allowed or you ask chat gp to plan your day whilst you're holiday so if somebody listening to this on a beach somewhere would you recommend handing over the control to chat gp oh yeah absolutely for me when i'm on holiday i always have this huge fear that i'm not using my time properly so if i'm just relaxing i'm like oh i need to be going out doing an olive oil tasting tour or something whereas if i'm out i'm like oh i need to be relaxing and never relax so it's that effort and risk and responsibility which gets to me on holiday so it's really nice just to find it out to chat gp and i have a great day it wasn't perfect i ate three cheese pizzas which was enjoyable at first but not by the last one it wasn't enjoyable but yeah it i didn't understand context all that well and it got quite a few things wrong but this was a couple of years ago so it's was i assume it would be much better if i did it now but it was overall a good day it was it was nice so i saw new things i had new experiences i had pistachio ice cream for the first time i didn't have to worry about if i was using my time responsibly because that was someone else's problem it was checked two's problem so i would definitely recommend it i i must say that alan and i have used tractor to be chief in a wrote plan back drive from bosnia to the uk every christmas some of the places it's taken us man yeah amazing never would've have found them otherwise brilliant be a great driver i love driving through through bosnia there's this road by it's kind of carved into the cliff by this river oh was beautiful yeah it is it's also terrifying it the rate they overtake but yeah it's it is you die somewhere beautiful which is yeah a good thing i guess i saw these tie marks that's skid marks going over the side of the road it's it's an adrenaline are driving both new sure i look i think that's a great tip and that machine control as well is there any of kind of quick tip she'd give to anybody listening to this on a on a beach and well i guess in contrast to what i just said about chat to gp but put the phone down i was on a beach in cancun and it was so strange to look around and see everyone looking at their devices when they're on probably one of those beautiful natural places you could be in the world and i think phones are making us unhappy as well for various reasons but screen time i think it's it's just not good for us so yeah if you're if you're on the beach enjoy the beach he present i love it that was patrick fa and i hope that he's made me rethink a little bit about your employee experience and let's wrap up with our top three takeaways for leaders who do want to create more meaningful work lesson one stop avoiding productive struggle patrick's research shows that experience requiring effort and pushing comfort zones create deeper meaning than pure pleasure to maybe consider job swaps or challenging cross functional projects or maybe just deliberately awkward team exercises and lesson to think about the marvel framework although it is traditionally used for brands a lot of it applies to building meaningful workplaces too so try to create magic through emotional peaks focus on relevance by tapping into employee interests provide real value through learning and encourage exchange and social connection through interactivity so suppose is its marvel for brands and mister v for workplaces at number three embrace that intentional friction don't try and avoid it while some companies focus on making everything frictionless patrick argues that some struggle is actually essential for meaning at work this could be as simple as maybe collaborative problem solving sessions or learning opportunities that stretch people's capabilities now careful not to ever simplify patrick's approach here it's not about making work harder it's about making it more intentionally experimental when every day feels the same we will intentionally remove tension but when we create novel challenging social experiences we slow down time and build deeper connections you can find patrick at just do stuff dot c dot uk where he documents his ongoing experiments or patrick dash fa dot c uk for his work and behavioral science influence that's all for today remember comfort might feel good but struggle create stories worth remembering now go and do something that makes you slightly uncomfortable your future yourself almost certainly will thank you for it this is truth work we will see next week or and if you are looking for something to do and haven't it left a your review yet maybe try that not that uncomfortable very easy to do bye bye

hello and welcome to truth live and work the award winning podcast where behavioral science meets at workplace culture we are brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is leon i'm a charter occupational psychologist my name is a and i've got a strange voice today on let me do that again my name is a and i am a business owner i don't know why happened sorry i'm put the energy out yeah come on yeah my name is alan jesus i've just bang the microphone oh we're here to hope place hi hi hi yeah you probably guessed by straight away but this is not the most professional episode we've done not of our episodes apart with one to guess a particular professional but what we do on a tuesday in august we tend train to august stuff so i choose in august we did a little bit loose goose yeah if if there was a video version they should see that we both drink little glass the rosy lion yeah what my friends call a pass which stands for tale is rosie thank you for helping moment with my edit there by editing yourself lee no problem we did so last last week we had nick cut and john white we were on their podcast nerd journey so we gave you that if you haven't gone to listen to part two it's out now definitely go listen into that before that we did remote work ro where we just said all the places that we've been and where you might want to might want to work and what else we do for august as gold people ask old people yes ask all people we when we yeah we mourn the loss of aol dial up and dove to reddit ask all people feed to answer some questions and the first week where we do the first week i think that oh the moment the effort files the f files yes our own personal and career disasters is what we're calling our summer sessions and this is kind of our last summer session really because next year well we're not quite back to this week and work we are talking a bit more seriously about what what is the next three four months mh look like i don't say q four what you know or all thinking and what you might be able to do in terms of people and culture that time to have an impact well you will be able to do something because you've you've got alright from like the second week in december yeah not really much point in doing i think everyone's in a really good mood anyway but when people come back from holiday or vacation if you're from cross upon then they're probably even quite good moods so it's probably a good time to say guys shall we search shall which way continue the joy if you listen to last you haven't listened to last thursday episode so we had joel za on talking about troy it's joel z sorry talking about bringing joy to the workplace to go and listen to that anyway lee what are we doing today today we are going to be ranking the wildest workplace tourism trendy twenty five so far this is gonna be fun yeah so regular listeners will know that this week can work our normal tuesday format has a news roundup up and you know it's my favorite time of the week weekend and i miss it so i brought some news back into my life so i pulled together the biggest headline so far this year some a funny summer shocking some really just sad making so i think missus el told me it's gonna work it's is basically we've got seven stories i've not seen them leanne has but at seven stories we'll pick one at random and then leanne anne is gonna read out the recap or i will read out the recap so you know what's happened and then we're gonna talk about it at that point you miss decide you wanted stop the podcast or keep going yeah but if you do wanna keep guarantee for each story we're gonna give it a grade so a bit like a school report card for americans or like you're getting your a gcs results a plus means it's brilliant for workplace culture a total fail how can you even look at yourself in the mirror how do you sleep at night but as we go we're gonna ask the same sort of questions like what does this tell us about work in twenty twenty five or is this progress or are we sliding backwards and obviously will people still care about this story in five years time yeah and that's it really nice and simple headlines but a context and then our or take it might be spicy it might be different let's see out right okay so after the short break we will look at story number one chosen by random leah give us a random number i thought we're known the breakfast i know but i'm i'm i'm building i'm building a curiosity i'm opening me a curiosity hook four four so today if you wanna know what four is join us after the break you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems south familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and la fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new sign ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better four that's so that's the number you chose for yeah so as as i chose it do you want to out i'll read it so pulling it out of the hat actually clicking on the tab on google docs so so par working for startups ups this is brilliant okay so this is what happened unless you haven't heard of him as i tell you the story you probably will will recognize it on july the second playground ai founder su dos posted a viral warning on x that's twitter for us boomers psa public service announcement there's a guy named so par who works at three or four startups ups at the same time he's been prey on yc companies now they post got twenty million views and prompted dozens other the founders to share identical experiences a database created an on july the fourth reveal i kinda like this guy reveals per had had nineteen jobs since twenty twenty one with five starting in just the previous month on july the fifth per appeared on a podcast admitting to working a hundred and forty hours per week across multiple re roles claiming dire financial service just put that context i believe there's a hundred and sixty hours in the week a hundred and forty hours in the week appointment so despite the controversy you landed a new job at darwin studios i didn't know that i did not know this okay so the reaction was the tech community split between calling my scanner and admire the audacity i'm definitely falling for the latter of those two it did create this broader discussion about remote work trust and hiring processes with some worried about the impact on legitimate indian remote workers shall we talk about that then we'll go to the question in a second yes so what are your thoughts is this the same because i remember you telling a similar story is this the same dude that you told the story about so i thought in that you said that he wasn't actually doing the work yeah but he wasn't doing the work well this is what i remember from the story and this is the bit where the idea is kinda cool because people were saying he's a genius people saying he's absolutely brilliant he's like a top rate engineer which is cool however what what was happening was should bubbly i'm on my podcast that's a little dog scratching himself and and to what he did was he'd go in and say he'd get a full time job and then he caught with all these excuses and one of them was like a drone hit his house like a military drone hit his house then he was in hospital i mean i'm not sure the timing of that but i'm i'm hoping it wasn't around that time no no no and i'm and also because he lived in india then he said he'd got himself of permits to live the us but he hadn't so it's the point here where i'm slightly disappointed because if he was able to cut to hold down three jobs for example and do them more brilliantly mh and he worked and he he did work a hundred and twenty hours a week but he did that for three years he went great generation or not generational world but decent amount of money call but it seemed like he was scamming a little bit yeah there's a dude on youtube who's getting a bit a bit famous now he's like he just financial advice in a very angry way and we seen him he has like two people one person will sit down and basically call them tau and yeah yeah but then help them get themselves out of debt and stuff like a very angry dave ramsey yeah well he he has admitted himself on somebody else's podcast that he got to that point of being able to go self employed because he worked two jobs remotely and took the salary but his point was that he looked through his contract there was nothing in that said that he couldn't he hit all the performance indicate he was meant to nobody a difference in that circumstance my only question mark around what we'd call over employment excuse me is whether you are taking the opportunity away from somebody else and in such a tough job market that is problematic no i'm gonna jump in there and say if you are taking that for someone else because you're not doing the work yes if you're taking that opportunity from someone else because you are better and you can still only doing fifty percent of your time you do a better job and someone who spent a hundreds at the time i'd say that's natural selection so i'd say that's merit at its very best so i think that i agree with you if this person's taken a role and is not doing the work then they're taken away from someone else if they've taken the role and they are doing the work and they just so happen to can do two at the same time tough and we'll have to agree to disagree on that one on the new nuance of that one i think over employment is definitely a thing isn't it whether it's with multiple organizations but you're a contract with many contracts whether you couple of side hustle going alongside your full time job it's a thing it it's just the way it is because people need money like it's it's really tough out there isn't it in a minute where it continues to be inflation everything else i in terms of rating this as a as a problem i'm gonna i'm gonna go it's kind of like d so it's a bit it's a bit poor it's a bit problematic and i think the main problem comes from taking opportunities away from other people and potentially ruining remote work for everybody else because the headlines that entrepreneurs and business owners and leaders are picking up on is that people can't be trusted to work remotely because they'll do things like this and i think that's probably the minority in the fact that he's gone viral and is is on the news and all over podcast of across the world is because it's a fairly rare thing in terms of holding multiple high paid jobs with tech startups i'm sure everyone's got a side hustle yeah and i think a lot of companies do encourage we had becky on recently who encourages high outside hustle of her digital agency but yeah look i i can't help but admire the guy i just think where it fell down was he didn't do what he was paid mh and if he delivered everything is paid to do then i be like guys you've got no address even if it is against the terms and of his contract you know i'm like well we've all done stuff which is against terms of our contracts i'm maybe not you speak for yourself i know i definitely have so we what you're gonna give it i give it a day it sounds like you're going a bit higher yeah i'm gonna give a c i'm gonna give it a scene and just remind me to see am am i what am i grading here because i'm a bit confused just like how how how good is it or bad for it for work in general workplace culture impacts it had on workplace culture yeah or in terms of stories like this and the impact they might no i think no in that case then i go id because it's had a negative impact on every every if it if it gets like ten percent of people who were slightly for work remote work and now they're like oh no we're not we're don't doing remote work because of that guy remember that guy then i i think it's bad for okay that's a day then that's a day sorry dude wow okay lee you're turn to to read the story in i turn to pick the numbers yes i'm gonna go with at number six please number six oh this is a fairly recent one i'm not sure you would have this would have entered your world let's see sydney sweeney needs jeans or jeans american eagle yeah yeah so this was july was about a month ago so what happened if you haven't heard of it american eagle which is a clothing brand in the us launched their full autumn campaign featuring sydney sweeney she's a very famous one from i say you euphoria i don't know where she's from i've just seen i've seen a lot of her yes both a lot of her and also a fair amount of her yes she is she's famous for many reasons so that the tagline of the campaign with sydney sweeney has great genes j e a n s this campaign then included a video where sydney sweeney says jeans g e n e s i'll passed down from parents to offspring often determining traits like hair color personality or even eye color my jeans are blue while the camera then pans to her blue eyes you might think this is harmless as well criticism criticism began very swiftly on tiktok and x with users calling it eugenics propaganda due to the blonde blow eyed actress discussing good genes a few days later a white house spokesperson got involved of course they did yeah that's we need they they i believe that donald trump is a big fan of sydney sweeney and i could not imagine for why but but this white house spokesperson called the backlash council culture run a mock and trump trump went on to praise both sw and the ad campaign leading to a twenty three percent stock rise on august the fifth so yeah in terms of the reaction it generated a fifty million readers across three thousand of news articles eighteen times more normal mention volume for the brand critics argued it echoed historical eugenics messaging while supporters praised it as put pushback against broke marketing so the question is a is is calculated corporate strategy during a d backlash that delivered massive results or is it harmful messaging the echo historical eugenics and should have been caught well i think it's both and i'll tell you for why i think that it is harmless and i think it is deliberate because i think the agents agency you did this is genius because they've gone you know what they could do jeans is like genes and once we did a jeans thing ones done american users like we can't do that and they're like yeah you can yeah and now they've got millions potentially hundreds of millions of pounds worth of earned media from it is that the right term earned media basically not paid for media everyone's talking about it we're talking about it three months two months later i've seen so much stuff on there and also this is right here's a boomer he's a boomer account probably didn't get me canceled i think there are a lot of people in the world where there's not a whole lot going on in their life and they're just looking around and they cannot wait to find something to be outraged about and they saw this and they were he doesn't even reply to me but i'm outraged and i think that's what's happened and i think there are few people who've gone yeah is this like a sort of a nazi thing come nazi scene i don't know how to believe that just did just did is this like like you said this is all about blonde haired eyes man i think just the bigger things to worry about that a pair of brick jeans what are you think oh we are so gonna get canceled for that well i've said it not you i oh do you know why i think it is i think it is people's window of tolerance for this level of bs has shrunk down massively because we're seeing such a rollback in human rights in terms of of diversity equity and and various minority groups including women and the rollback of of women's health and d initiatives in organizations and the rise of racism and hate crimes in its anything that is potentially fanning the flames of this and causing more divide i think understandably that people are speaking up and going this seems a little bit problematic would this have been a problematic three years ago maybe not maybe not also wouldn't it was been as effective three years ago and that's what irritates me about marketers like we're all angry of course we're all angry we're frustrated we're feeling a bit segregated and we're feeling a divide and we're feeling a bit sensitive and vulnerable and you're gonna poke that better to make some money of course you are because that's what works that's the behavioral science behind at all but man if you use your powers for good what a world but you can't use your powers for this is the problem is that if you want to affect change and markers want to affect chains and want people to to move to american eagle brand to buy their jeans then they've got two options they go american eagle jeans are really nice or they go sidney got great genes maybe maybe it's a mate you know i don't know why won't to get alternatives if you know what what were they trying to say but anyway my point is they had to go down this route otherwise it's just like oh we got nice jeans you should maybe go and buy some they didn't have to go down the route but it's i admire it i think it's a bold advertising campaign i think it's was intentionally meant to fan flames and i think that there's probably some one percent of the complaints are probably genuine and i've got genuine points behind them i am sorry but my personal and this is this is not the opinion of the podcast all but my personal opinion is ninety nine percent of people just saw something to get i outraged about on one year great quit right do you remember back about fifteen years ago on radio two where russell brand although he's no no longer a good guy russell brand and who was the other guy oh yeah and they it was really famous he was he was what he called jonathan was granddaughter phone someone's granddaughter did something weird said some horrible stuff yeah i'm barry mind russell brand has now been yes in court for rape and sexual assault charges so yeah so i think that maybe yeah maybe russell brand was anyway that's a different conversation my point was that when and they had look a me to go where hell are you going with this out the point was that the bbc got about two hundred complaints for when that went out and then when it hit the papers the next morning then they got about twenty thousand complaints now those people hadn't heard the original stuff they was just like this is terrible right i'm gonna go and complain about it and it's like really fair enough but equally i think there's an element of when these things hit the news or hit social media an element of education as to why this is problematic okay for example you spoke to any door not so long ago and had now had a complete rethink about how you describe people where you'll catch yourself you go i'm at an incredible woman day and you're like wait a minute while each gender them that's an incredible person today let me tell you about them i think there's a of course there is a there a balance so we could continue to have conversations and be creative and empathize and learn more about each other in our an honest way that doesn't feel like we're having to to tip toe or walk on ag shells equally i just think any messaging that causes more divide put in the for the sake only of of in me in profit doesn't sit nicely with me fair enough so on a scale of a to f what are you giving it another day i think it you know what it reveals deeper problems in our culture in our organization life in our leadership i don't think it's necessary the ad campaign i think it's how it was doing the timing of it and and how people were now also use as another kind of kind of marking point to go oh well all this d stuff is just complete bs because remember how trump backed up the sydney sweeney campaign and he said it was fine and she was just selling jeans so it's the creep that makes me uncomfortable it normalize these types of of divisions and segregation and that i'm not down for fair enough fair enough well my instinct is to give it a c because i don't think it's i don't think it's made work life better in any way but also don't genuinely don't believe was made life work work life much worse so i'm gonna go with c which stands for which also is the word council starts with c's no well yeah yeah we got with tit for one more before a break or should we go to a break let's go to a break okay we'll see in a second hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like it is of course brought to you by the hopes spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the of a millennial or something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love it love phil a fellow millennial he's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley also has the best name to be said in the extract voice barbara dun welcome back if you've just joined us you revel your my kind of person this is what we're doing we're taking some new stories over the past past eight months or so we're recap and we're having a little bit of a say on on how they might have impacted workplace culture organizational life so far we've heard about the indian guy who had twelve hundred jobs and lied about doing the all sydney sweeney for that jeans campaign so let's go on to the next one i'll do you wanna is it your turn to pick number your mind my turn i will go with number two number two and what what was the number what was it what what what you're laughing now what number two is is it what i think like no no one i'm being childish what was the previous number we did was it six so we did four and six yeah got it okay what what's so gone on what's tell me jamie diamonds worked from her rant this is funny so this takes us back to february twenty twenty five j jpmorgan chase ceo jamie diamond lost it a town hall in a in ohio when an employee asked about a petition sign by over a thousand staff requesting hybrid work policies so mister diamond exploded and i will beat myself you said quote don't waste time in it i don't care how many people sign that effing petition don't give me the s that work from home friday works he went on to continue ranting about zoom calls a lot of you were on the effing zoom doing the following looking at your mail sending text each other about one a hole the other person is that's the abuse that's that's why i like those gonna zoom calls because i can text you and go with this person a bit of a knob yeah so anyway that audio leaked in february when viral pretty much immediately about week later jamie diamond did apologize for language but double down on his return to office policy there you go some reactions said it was support for authentic leadership criticism criticism come on you can do this the critics said it was a boomer ceo meltdown what he was oh on business media covered it pretty extensively as an example of generational workplace divide we have talked about this on a podcast before a where do you know however you reflected on mister diamonds behavior well to quote to quote mad i didn't think about him at all i think do you know what if that's opinion that's fine that's the opinion he didn't go to the news newspaper we didn't go on tv and give that opinion you gave it on a relatively private or albeit public but albeit company but relatively private call someone's taken that and they've just played it and it released it like this is what jamie diamonds thinks like this so first of all that could be out of context i don't think it is but it's possibly when this is what some people say about remote work remote shit anyway back but of course i think it's great now i don't think he did do that at all we know he didn't do that but here's possible but still look this this is this guy's opinion he is far more successful than you and i are ever gonna be yeah and far more money than you and i ever gonna earn and then the majority of people in the world are gonna earn if he wants to do it that way let him do it that way i don't think it's fair i wouldn't do it in my company i wouldn't do in his position but do you know what that's his company why not his company but he's that he's the currently presiding over it let him do it what do you think i think that it's another example if it's not about the business decision you've made it's about how that decision is executed there's is no need to be effing and blinding on a town hall with a thousand staff what message does that give in terms of the environment you're creating it's very it's very dictator like it's very hierarchical editorial yes exactly it's just it's old fashioned it's treating your your people like children clearly this is a cultural cultural issue been going on for a while where they've treated their people like children so they are acting out in ways that might seem un civil in a workplace in terms of not engaging in important meeting perhaps it do you know what the remote hybrid in office whatever its context and culture exists independent of that context this for me isn't about work from harm it's about control and it's from it's coming from somebody who feels it's slipping because everything he knew the world that he built his success on is changing at such a pace that he is it's scared yeah about what that means for him so that for me is his fear driving a a state of a of emotional dis regulation that's directly impacting his people and his business not cool fair enough no i i mean i don't think it's cool and i and i think also because we're very bullish on the whole remote work things so i think it is kind of a little bit harmful because those but i think all it's doing is finding those people on the fence and going i'm not sure do remote work mega go i followed jam jamie diamond okay well if he thinks that are thing the saying or it's just ammunition for those people who are already on the other side of the fence on the remote work is rubbish side of the fence and it's just giving them ammunition to go told you i was wrong told you i was right told you i was right you're wrong i'm am right for those people who love remote work and i'm very happy with that stuff to stuff to do remote work i don't think i think gonna make a slightest bit of difference to them so i think it's like a sort of swing state as they call it done they in the in the american and the uk elections it's only really affecting like maybe the ten or fifteen percent people who are still collecting him for collecting opinions and deciding whether to go whether they can do remote work or not so absolutely and like i said it's not about it's not about romero or in office it's not even about the businesses made it's how it's being handled and again examples of this very aggressive leadership style being normalized to the point most some people are praising it is authentic leadership that for me is hugely problematic that in we said that's a very very good point but then having said that the people who are praising it probably the people who want to be like him they're not you know you're not gonna get the the the the john reaches the world praising it john means of way we're gonna go this is a lot of rubbish don't be doing that and that's totally rubbish so right i agree that i think it's it wasn't called the away the way he spoke what he said i agree that is a very bad template for management but i also maintain that anyone in the age of thirty five would look at that and go what asked they're not gonna look at that and go oh maybe i should be more more more dumb i you know love the and tate the rise of of this type of more toxic masculinity on social media i don't think it is bound to an older age group anymore maybe well that case that might change my change my my school so maybe i'm gonna give this an f f hard f hard f oh dear okay well there you go we look forward to your letters lee we've not chosen an odd number yet okay then i will go for number five number five so story number five is you did something and it's got a great news newsletter called linkedin a f and if you're if if you under the age of thirty five you know what air stands for and it's ever comes out friday and it's really really good she finds like you know the best comments on linkedin then she finds the like the funniest things there was one guy and i can't remember it was you said something about going to a cold concert with yours with your cmo and then the most embarrassing thing was people know you're going to a called cold concert this is what we're talking about you will know what we're talking about here you got to july sixteenth andy bayer ceo of astronomer one point three million no one point three billion with a b billion tech company he went to he went to a coal play concert with kristen cabo the this is the this is the worst bet the the company's chief people officer k cam arrived on them obviously thinking these two couple can little bit older isn't that nice p look how lovely people people old people are still in love and they were like i dived out and and then just hell ari ensued and they're world blew up obviously buying resigned cabo resigned a few days later but there was it was just all over social media for about three days wasn't it yep the bit that i don't remember many people talking about was as the camera zoomed in and caught these people who who have both i don't know i told you but both having affairs i know you know that both having affairs with with each other then there was the it was christine second in command the chief people officer but she was probably head of hr or something was she she was there and had the biggest shit eating g on her face mh that's the story that's the story i wanna hear eyes here oh it's just it's just so awful in so many ways it's so awful cringe worthy awful because it's initially you kinda like your absolute idiots mh being so like pd when you're having an affair you're both married you're with people from the company yep then you get you know and then you get put in the big screen and then you hide you could have even started it out potentially and not got the attention because they hid so chris martin went well either you're really shy you're or having an affair if they it just kind of released each their own way been like probably would've have moved on and maybe would have got picked up maybe not it i don't think it be as big as it was no no so then to that's awesome so on one hand it's like falls what did you expect but then on the end nothing because i having an affair yeah come on naps is like a fair one zero one harold he's he's emphasis isn't his first rodeo on i i bet it isn't i bet it is sorry carry then you think about the dynamics of of it being like the workplace ceo head of people is oh it couldn't been the finance first and credit it so that's that's that's canada that makes it worse and then it's the thing that it's like these two poor people their careers man that's that's hard to recover from they're so well because in australia as well as it and i've worked a lot in australia with senior level of professionals it's a small freaking world in terms of whether they were based in sydney was it or melbourne or don't remember are that professional was been very small and your world famous at this point like people are gonna know who you are and then their families and how well that's been brewing so i kind of went from my whole thing was like falls to oh that's really bad for for kind of workplaces to these poor people and their families how are you gonna recover from that in a way that is even manageable like i i hope they're okay because that is traumatic well you can't take the wind out of my comedy sales here a little bit because you're quite right yes that is pretty pretty tragic not great for anyone i would say we're could get some emails from down under shortly i would say that a man who has an affair and then gets put on the big screen is famous around the world actually might not do as badly in australia as you thought as you might think some of the people we've some of the companies we've up with in australia they're slightly say nineteen seventies sort of mindset maybe maybe i think regardless of i'm not sure i'd go there with australia i don't think it is quite that but i think you're right he'll feel he'll fare better than she will oh yeah without a doubt she's yeah she's ruined and that's not fair and it's not right but how do you how would you come back from that when you're ahead of people that's the worst business isn't it i wonder because i heard that the the the other woman who was with her the one who did the big g they've been working together for a while and i wonder if the other woman just when she saw the kiss count went brilliant and chief of cheap people officer now whether that's what went through ahead like i i've got it i'm done i know you do you can't know kanye how calculated that that was or how in the moment that was it could be that she's been going on to her colleague for age this isn't right at needs to stop can't believe you've got your audacity to come here this is really dangerous blah blah that then it happens and she's been like well that's calmer or whether she's tried to style it out and been like oh we're just laughing here right we're just like my you don't eat out know tell people always quick to make women villains on there in terms of like this my plan along that and i don't i'm not sure that was a key i thought really genuinely wasn't it wasn't meant anything about being a woman and we're going at sent for sephora differentials of her here it was about being a person and she was just looking very happy but then the other thing is perhaps she just saw herself on a the big screen on the big screen yeah on tell which was nice to laugh where people are screen and they point at pointed at the screen not the camera yeah and they're like no that's not where the camera is the camera over there because yeah just did you see the advert with that astronomer put out a few years gwyneth pal you you you talk about this really simply gwyneth pal did a little advert for astronomer gwyneth is the x of chris martin from yeah hopefully what's really kind of a fair thing going on there or not i don't believe that they're consciously un uncovered did they not sorry not sick in my mouth yeah so she did this thing and it was quite funny but at the same time might have been in poor taste but then also at the same time maybe the guys the media guys there are law friend going we have to do something and someone went yeah get quinn on the line yeah but the worst thing was as well when it was it andy watts concerning burn burn and right byron sorry the manchester of mayor seems stuff you he released a statement saying that it said they released the joint me were saying that it was they should have had to sign a release formal or permission for the for the camera to go on them or something absolute nonsense and weren't focusing on the right thing to the point where then the next corporate concert went viral a clip from that of chris martin saying so what we're gonna do now is is put people randomly from the crowd on the big screen if you don't want that or if you're here with somebody you shouldn't be then you were might wanna stop doing whatever it is and it's like and that when violence like you're making it worse yep yeah if you dig in a hole and it's not going well so so in terms of for what this has done for workplace culture we've got nothing nothing above a d so far i don't i can't imagine this is gonna be bubba dee leigh what do you scoring it oh do you know what i think i'm gonna be fairly because i don't think it's as bad as everything else we've i mean it's really not great yeah but at the same time it's too consenting adults entering entering a relationship is ill advised but nobody nothing illegal is happening here i think it's average i think i think there's some which is everything we've talked about i think maybe there's some good in terms of if i wonder how many affairs in the workplace have since broken up yeah or how many people might be a bit more mindful about entering a relationship with us subordinate it in the future i'd hope there's some lessons learned from this so i'm gonna go average see i'm gonna go b it's okay because from what you've just said that i was originally gonna go c as well when you're gonna go b even possibly a because of those reasons you just said there it's may it hopefully will make some people rethink what what how they're doing things at work and maybe i should be think it's something gonna hide it better but still yeah no i'm with i'm with you b b i'm speed that's what i'm sticking with b so b solid positive overall not without its flaws yes okay talking b the number three rhymes with b and looks a little bit like a b without back so will you tell me not story the three i will number three duo ai first revolution i don't know this i don't think oh you do do i'm sure you do so this has kind of been happening all year so j you know the app like you learn different languages on the ceo lewis von anne announced that the company would gradually stop using contractors to do work the ai i can handle and become ai first so one of the first big organizations to really come out and say they'll make this clear gonna be ai first so duo has already replaced a hundred workers primarily writers and translators who create all the kind of quizzes and learning materials that the company is very well known for this actually followed earlier cuts in january twenty twenty four when duo cut ten percent of its contractor workforce and again it's a company shifted content creation to ai so the ceo van anne said teams must prove they can't automate work before hiring and candidates ai facility will be evaluated during hiring so basically what they're saying is that if i'm a hiring manager and i wanna make a higher prove that ai can't do it before i give you that budget a former work said that the ai output is very boring during has always been known is a very fun brand very quirky about about yeah just just kind of being that that lovely app isn't it that helps people learn and engage but it has received criticism for some mistakes coming out currently or recently in the content in the content yeah which you know after this criticism again the ceo walked back his comments and said that that i do not see ai as replacing what i employees do book potentially augment augmenting it so yeah there was a journalist brian merchant who pointed to this as part of an ai jobs crisis that's a series of management decisions being made by executives seeking to cut labor costs and other users have criticized the company online with many threatening to delete the app over quality concerns and ethical issues so yeah is it an honest innovation alice about scaling education globally through the inevitable tool use of ai or is it corporate greed destroying the creative job industry thoughts i don't think that's very particularly creative to translate something i think i think you just translate something i think if they are writing stories then that's creative but no so no i'm not gonna i'm not gonna class that's creative do you know what have you seen this at what level have you got up to on duo because i'll be honest i've not really got past a kind of general quizzes does it get a bit more complex as it goes on buenos don that's about as far as i've got but do you know what it was funny about this one i saw this i do remember the story now and there's a meme but that you see quite often like these sort of like cheeseburger or a whatever of easy these out these websites and is and it says me going to bed at two at to two am and then it's just got home it's got the duo owl or whatever is called them going let's review your mistakes and i like the idea that whether this ceo that these grace the want done memes away him going let's review your mistakes outside outsourcing to ai look i'm gonna be really not surprising i didn't know what i've been drinking today but i'm really grumpy today ai here just get on with it mh so ai took took their jobs so what boo who that's very sad for the individual people but from an actual like generally i was looking at going come on out pull it rein it in my point is i can replace out cancel him not me okay well basically you can still say where ai without because that's the way my my name is look the point is ai is coming for our jobs ai will take our jobs if you don't gone to notebook l i've been listening to podcast on notebook l that they've been creating from documents and they're pretty good they're like sixty percent good seventy percent good don't than know not other podcast are i'm listening tip we're replaceable everyone's replaced by ai the point is that was a shame but then when you know the calculators came in people who were adding up on a reckoning machine were replaced it's just the way the progression don't shoot the man from duo be angry and music mix metaphor metaphors don't blame the game don't blame the player great blame the game mh lee you school me i'm gonna get some wine from the fridge while you're schooling me no and you know what this is this is a difficult one actually because i don't i agree with you i'm not i'm not against ai coming into organizations i think it's talking with whether a will i icon or not i think it's how it's done the ethics of it really interests me and i don't think there's many organizations out there that are really thinking about the ethical implications of this the societal implications of this mh because i think it is yeah this is huge this is like this is bigger than the internet i think this is this is bigger in terms of its impact on employ i just think it's a very bold claim at a fairly early stage of ai to make the bold declaration we are gonna be ai first and i think from a marketing and branding perspective that was the mistake because i think putting it sort of publicly it's not necessarily about being innovative because you're not using a whole new ai thing that doesn't exist anymore you're using an probably or something similar to translate stuff so i don't think it's the flex that the ceo thought it would be oh no i might have changed mind slightly because i didn't know it was a flex i don't know it's like why else would you come out and say it because if you're if you're delaying people off for it no yes if he's come out and said sorry i've totally interrupted you there but i won't carry no no please please my point was that if he comes out and goes yes we're go on first and as a result we've got rid of all these people and look it's all ai aren't we clever yeah no you're in knob well that's what the story was in that case then i'll either edit what i've just set out or i just won't bother but you don't bother changed my i've changed my mind and here we go do you know jamie diamond they are going to use people are gonna use what i said about five minutes ago as my rant this will be my jamie diamond moment of going oh well boo who just get on with it there you go get in a context anyway leanne would you like me of like to please yes please yeah i do you know i think i think we're i think we're both on the fence a bit on this one i think it's again it was how it as handled the fl just didn't land right the ethics of this are barely being figured out the belle disgust let alone figured out true then we have kind of the element as well of of kind of this is fairly a fairly new shift in transition legislation could potentially come out i just think to be so bold about it when you're not an ai company i don't think that necessary and i don't think it's gonna make people feel better for losing their jobs because that's should we just go to stop personal going ai first oh laptop right then okay i have done a u i i've done a u and i'm gonna say this is an f oh i'm gonna say it's an f because is for this person is flexing that's not cool i think that i don't think so what i've changed your mind about is the story is about the that the ceo going yeah but we're got first isn't that cool whereas if the story was about the ceo replacing humans with ai we're like well of course duh we're all gonna do that but if it's about that then it's an f from me okay and was that wasn't a tim i i think i don't think i'm not sure it's that bad i think this is happening i just think how that's been communicated the word and how it's being merged within the organization is is naive so i think i'm gonna give it a say i think it's average i think there's some good aspect because again it's sparking conversation around people actually replacing people with ai and the problems that come with that both in terms of quality quality and ethics and how that brand is is perceived within within the market yeah i i don't yeah it's very it's average it was it it was yeah meh fair enough fair enough okay so we've only got time for one more we've got about three minutes left really i know so which number are you gonna choose me look at which one they are okay these are ones that we that will that means check do you want to hear about two hundred uk companies going to a full a work yes or do you want to hear about qantas being here hit with a record fine for illegal layoffs no a good news story to end good news story i like wine go and then i'll let you read this one out okay let we find it so number one number one so more than two hundred uk companies have permanently adopted a four day working week with no pay loss and this affects over five thousand workers two years after in a groundbreaking experiment these companies chose to make the policy permanent so the pilot was conducted by four day week global that's not child connor that's the that's different i think is different yeah yes i thought they work no no not them you wanna go for joe o'connor he's he's he's the guy who knows everything so it made up with twenty four companies and joe r the campaign director said the nine to five five day working week was invented a hundred years ago and he's no longer fit for purpose we are long overdue an update brilliant lovely basically what they're saying in this this the the facts the the companies revenue stayed broadly the same despite the fact that nobody work what people were worked on four days it rise rose by one point four an average the staff leaving decreased by fifty seven percent not five point seven fifty seven percent fifty seven percent guys mh fifteen percent of employees said no amount of money would induce them to accept a five day schedule the milestone comes as other company's staff a companies push staff back to offices like jamie diamond this is fabulous as far as i'm concerned it's an a from me there we go good night we'll see you next week lee talk us three thoughts yeah a's a a across the board it's it's just a good sense the key thing here and i love that quote from the campaign director the nine to five five day working week was invented a hundred years ago and is no longer fit for purpose it is no longer fit for purpose especially in a world that is so fast paced so always on so blurry in terms of boundaries i honestly don't think it's it's sustainable we're gonna go back to the day where people have a heart attacks at thirty five because it's just too much it's just too much as we can see it's not good for businesses either that's insane so at one point four five percent on average increase in revenue so you're making more money even though you're paying people the same for them working less very much in the bunny is because they're probably working much more productively in the four days that they've got staff with ten or staff attrition so people leaving decreased by fifty seven percent that is incredible though have you ever seen anything that was someone went i implement this and my my retention increases by whatever that will be that's incredible no and that means you're looking at an employee engagement might probably within kind the seventy eighty percent mark which is unheard of in these times and he's probably saying the organization's millions depending on the size of it over just one year this is an absolute no brainer for me absolute no brainer i heard you know i was talking to audrey tang the other day he's been on podcast fabulous berry happy to call her one of my my friends now and and i told to her and she time about how charles darwin was mis mistreated you know survival that the fit is mh said that was mis misguided it's survival of the best fit oh yeah so it's not like survival the fit is hustle culture bro jamie dime with people that are gonna hustle until we're all dead that's you know we're with the we're the strongest they're gonna survive like that's no it's thursday as they're the best fit so i think it's the organization's that are savvy enough to go no we need to change this for our people for our business for sustainability are gonna are gonna survive and thrive love it no brainer four day work is brilliant we've been a couple of episodes on it most recently with jeanette rams from the curve group and we also talked to one of the researchers behind the pilot yes we did we had joe connor we had fe ka who if you're on linkedin and you know and you know a digital p guy from romania that's fe funny guy and then we had i forget his name and got really cool name like but bra or something of the old brent but bernard back bet bay something banks we'll put the shelley show notes i'm sorry about that mister banks have forgotten but yeah look the quote here i think is really telling lightly anne said the five day working week was invented a hundred years ago yes it was but people went to work and there came home from work mh and there was no phones there was no fax machine there was no computers forty years ago maybe you might bring home a laptop could you drive a computer at a home thirty years ago you definitely a laptop twenty years ago you probably had a phone or a blackberry brick ten years ago an iphone now you've got ipad iphone laptop you know it's got this is it's just not the same as it was mh even thirty years ago so something has to change of course it does and it and like the anne said you'll work hardening those four day weeks and probably don't really resent doing a little extra on the friday if something comes up and you go do you know i never let me send that email or something you don't go screw them i'm allowed can wait till monday you'll go oh got two minutes in the morning of a breakfast do it absolutely our have friends who work in in four day work week organizations who say exactly that but i be like i to send that email just log on quick i'll have my morning coffee ain't know think oh it's an really important client meeting what's only in hour yeah and they didn't get that time back and loo maybe not but it's who is gonna leave a four day work week a full pay and unless still someone did a three day work well that's both baby steps up game steps also i think it was rory sutherland who said that that everybody needs a four day work because you need on your weekend you need a day to to to to to basically socialize you know day to all your task on a day to do nothing and so that's why you need it so yeah if you're interested in that then definitely go search on our on a history four four day workweek week there's loads of stuff on there absolutely banks ben beneath there there we go i idea knew we'd come back to me loads and loads of stuff on there and also now as was a shocking story that we haven't heard that lia hasn't included here bear in mind that leanne now a influence so she's now got hundreds of thousands following her on linkedin and also her first trolls which is interesting so i was to called ignorant and arrogant that was just me actually was that oh that was this morning sorry but i you are neither of those things and i think most people on are linkedin to love you and do you know what what's worse than hate is ambivalent and that's true yes that's true with the people that ghost manning to worry about yes i got ghost by somebody that's really surprising and i'll tell you later who it was but i'm like i don't i really wanna talk about it because it's like isn't this weird and funny but equally i don't because i would never betray the confidence of of somebody but if you wanna know who it was yeah and email me and i'll tell you yeah and if you're interested in ghost we had associate professor john michael recently you're talking about small talking ghost so it's last tuesday yeah if you're being ghost so don't worry it means that the person ghost was more than psychopathic so oh we have more about psycho we've got several episodes psycho including the one i keep talking about the guest who is a psycho and we've not actually disposed who they are anyway we're gonna go we will see you what day to day tuesday we will see you on thursday for another episode of god is burton just just turn off just turn up a little good boy it won't let's find out together let's find out again together right let's go go on and take goodbye fine bye bye

i want you to meet joel z he's a keynote speaker an improv expert and quite possibly the most enthusiastic person you'll ever hear in a podcast my name is joel z i am a keynote speaker i use improv and humor to talk about choices joel also the guy who when he got fired from his newspaper job grabbed his home harmonic and did something surprising on the loading dock i found myself on the back loading dock with the media radio stations tv stations other newspapers and i had my harmonic and i did this is a true story and i went prying come i lost my job by found by about i got no money by bounce out they told me to clean up my desk with bye bye bye mom i just moved here six months ago bye bam i got the newspaper blues bye bye bam that moment taught joke something quite profound about choosing your attitude during pretty bad situations so today we're asking what if the secret to better performance and happier teams isn't more serious leadership training but learning how to unleash genuine fun at work joel got a tada philosophy that might just change how you think about monday mornings plus he'll tell us about dumb ass managers who eat your fun and how not to become one of them this is gonna be ridiculously enjoyable hello and welcome to truth life and work the award podcast where behavioral science meets to workplace culture brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is leanne i'm a choice occupational psychologist my name is a and i'm a business owner and we are here to help you the science of black now raj joel z has spoken to two and a half thousand different groups from the likes of mcdonald's k g american express samsung basically know a brand and he's worked with them and he believes that celebrating small moments with this hearty tada might be the key to workplace happiness what makes his approach so refreshing is that he's not talking about forced fun although those like playing pong tables he's talking about authentic energy and genuine appreciation after this quick break we'll hear joel incredible harmonic story and discover what fun really means at work this is going to be brilliant you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems south familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and their fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new sign ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better my name is joel z i am a keynote speaker i use improv and humor to talk about choices how we choose to lead with passion how we choose to celebrate our successes how we find sec obsessed during change and disruption great teamwork creating opportunity and positive support i'm all about energy fun and laughter i wrote a book make the right choice lead with passion elevate your team unleash the fun at work probably the greatest business book ever that's probably what i'm famous for for probably writing the greatest business book ever published and i'm also famous probably the greatest podcast guest ever probably probably the greatest podcast guest i think fun should be inherent it should be part of everything that we do it should be our guiding light we should love what we do we should have fun at work but fun means different things fun isn't about pastries and free coffee and we're gonna play games on a friday afternoon that's fun i love that but fun is also mentoring someone making a great sale you know overcoming a challenge you know finding that success fun is something different for you and it's something different for me but you have to find that guiding light what that fun is and work toward it and i hope you're in a situation where your manager your leader is creating a foundation for that fund to exists they're creating opportunity for you they're being positive and supportive they're giving you appreciation that's the magic chemistry i think that creates fun opportunity and positive support i think the biggest pushback people are gonna have from listening to this is i work in compliance for a bank i put numbers from one spreadsheet into another all day long how am i supposed to make this fun you remember math class and i hated math i hated algebra i hated geometry but there's that kid right next to you who when they solve an algebra problem they've conquered the world do you remember that do you remember that and they would saw and they would be so excited and they would just feel this they'd have this energy and their body language and you know nobody would really care or talk to them but to them they're pretty excited that's not my fun but that's their fun so fun is many many different things and i don't care what job you have what industry and i've done i've spoken to twenty five hundred different groups and organizations in the us i've spoken to the irs which is the the tax man i've spoken to government agencies i've spoken to it and accounting and you named the industry that you think doesn't have fun and i promise they do if you just create that opportunity we have to have that energy it fuels us no matter what our job is whether it's a you know whether it's a job that's with numbers or it's a technical job you just have to find what that fun is is it is it mentoring somebody is it creating something new is it creating a new idea is it creating a a sense of team with your coworkers what what what is that fun and that should be a guiding light there is time for fun there's a lot of miss around fun that we're like one of the myths that you just mentioned that we're very serious here we're very serious company doing very serious work we can't possibly have fun that's a dark depressing thought that you're working years in what you think is a is an industry or job that you can't have fun you should have fun what is that guiding light for you what is it and if you really are honest with yourself and you answer that did you ask a question what opportunity do i need to be fulfilled and rewarded because fun is a big part of that what is that opportunity do i want to go to a conference do i want more training do i want a different responsibility a different role what is that opportunity that's gonna to be different for me than it is for you and if you're honest with yourself and then you tell your manager your director and you say hey this is what i need to be happy and fulfilled what do they get back in return if they give you that opportunity they get a team member that's passionate energized could it help them reach their goals it's a win and if they don't give you that opportunity that's a clue you're in the wrong place nothing wrong with that but i promise somebody down the road is wanting a passionate energized team member just like you and wants to give you opportunity and wants to give you positive support because they know what they get back in return and that's gonna fulfill and reward you that's how i started my career and my most of my stories at the beginning of my career dealt with murder death destruction something bad happening to somebody so that was my whole existence covering these stories so if i didn't have fun if i didn't find something fulfilling and rewarding i would just be you know that would just be a very depressing time and so it's sometimes you have a little bit of gallo humor and sometimes it's just having that connection with your coworkers but it's finding finding that fun and i'll give you a perfect example of finding fun in in kind of a a dark time so i i wrote this story it was was a there was a couple somebody one person went missing i wrote a big story about this missing person is very sad it's a huge headline about this person that was missing it was very sad and i talked to i believe the husband and well weeks later it came out that the husband actually committed the crime yeah and i was it was kind of weird so i came back to the newsroom and they had my coworkers had posted the headlines of the original story all over my computer because you know in a in a journalism way you know there's there's they're kind of making that comment of look what you fell for what we all fell for it until the police figured it out and so you know it lighten the situation it made a connection at work and it allowed me to focus on the task at hand with a with the kind of a a new a new beginning a new breath and you know it's finding that those moments where we can connect and you know they it's your coworker saying we we understand the situation you're in we're connecting with you we're thinking about you you know and we believe in you and it it's you know it's those little things that make that possible and it's really i think you know if we if we just reach out and help people and think about the people around us we can create that fun and energy with everybody around us a few months later after that happened the paper closed and i lost my job so that's a terrible moment when you lose your job so i didn't bring my magic harmonic i'm i'm traveling right now and so i they called me up and said the paper closed you lost your job which that's the worst right come clean at your desk and so as i'm leaving my one bedroom apartment with no furniture i think i a couch in a bed i grabbed this harmonic and i never walked out the door grabbing a harmonic but for this instance i did i don't play the harmonic i don't have any musical ability i'm tone death but for some reason i said i lost my job i should definitely grab my harmonic on the way out the door when i come clean out my desk so i go down to the paper people are crying they're upset they're angry and they're confused all the emotions that happen when you lose your job and we've all lost our job right you we've all had that situation and it's not fun but you have to choose your attitude that's what i learned that you have to choose your attitude yes this something terrible just happened to you i lost my job i can't control that but i control my attitude and how i react to that change that's what improv teaches us and something i really grabbed a ahold of and so i found myself on the back loading dock with the media radio stations tv stations other newspapers and i had my harmonic and i did this a true story and i went prime i lost my job bye bam bye i got no money by bam bye they told me to clean out my desk bye bam bye mom i just moved here six months ago bye bam by i got the newspaper blues but bam blah by and you could the the you could hear is like the movies you could hear the camera's clicking click and click click a because that's a new emotion for losing your job you don't see that often and and so it was something different than unique and that taught me that moment i wrote about it in my book it's the second chapter my one of my favorite chapters of make the right choice available at amazon or wherever you purchase books amazon uk wherever your listeners readers you control how you react to it and i learned that by playing that magic harmonic i set my attitude and tone and built my confidence and i discovered really to be who i was meant to be who i am i was my true self creating that energy being fun making that moment and that created a moment for a lot of people and it's a very that was my that's my favorite chapter in the book about how i control how i reacted to that terrible situation of losing your job let's stick with this idea of control i think that a lot of managers will be worried that if they allow people to have work at fun at work they're a losing control be there be people are being distracted from what they're actually supposed to be doing and see perhaps they're being left out of the phone i don't know what would you say to remind you who's just like i'm not for this this sounds like a distraction to me don't you want your team members to be passionate about what they do to be energized that that's what i want i don't care whether they're accountants or it or lawyers or hr professionals or marketing i want them to love what they do so my job as a leader is to figure out what my team members need to be happy first i think positive support and appreciation and when you say how hard is that for your manager if you can't give positive support and appreciation you shouldn't even be a manager and think about all the people you had contact with on the way home when you go home from work think about all those people you had contact with here's the challenge and you forgot because you're busy you're this go go leader so you're thinking about on the way home and tomorrow give that appreciation say thank you you're doing a great job appreciate the hard work appreciate what you did there on that project that fuels us that is inter that energizes us we want that you don't know how it feels when someone says that to you it's a gift and it's the best gift you can give anybody it barely takes any time doesn't take any money you don't have to put a big powerpoint presentation together you don't have to buy free pastries i i think you're your your fictional leader that's worried about creating fun can handle creating positive support i hope that's one that's gonna create fun somebody tells me that i'm doing a great job and they appreciate me i'm gonna have fun that's pretty good that's a good feeling certainly i'm might be bit worried about if i'm right okay we're having fun at work we're having great talent at work everyone's everyone's in the right role everyone's happy we're having a great time at work but then someone goes too far and then they say something that you thought was funny but isn't and actually is bad how do you curb that without taking all the fun out of the the room right that's a good question and you know fun should be inclusive should exclude people should not offend people should not be fund should not be at the expense of others so those should be our our our guard rails really and when you understand that and and i know sometimes people sometimes will say something or do something and then they have to watch an hr video sometimes people don't know they don't know right sometimes people say something and like i they don't realize that that offend or is is at the expense of someone on or exclude somebody and so you have to you have to educate you know if it's said with malice then that's another issue right if it's said without malice then it's about educating and making sure you understand but you know i think people are genuinely good that's i that's just my philosophy on life is that people are genuinely good and overall good and you know you hopefully made the right hires and if somebody accidentally says something it's just about educating that person but i don't really think that should be our fear when we talk about this fun it's not about we're just all you know jumping around and juggling balls and you know playing ping pong you're like maybe we'll work for ten minutes and that's what i think people when when they talk about fun of work that's i think that's their first their mindset is we're playing ping pong and there's free massages you know and you know there's an espresso machine you know and that's not all those things are fun nothing wrong any of that but what i'm focused on is being fulfilled making fun is about being fulfilled at work creating opportunity for each other being positive and supportive create being appreciative these are the tenants of improv one of the tenants is asking the question how do i help the people around me be successful because people ask you know how does improv work you're on stage with other performers there's no script there's no rehearsal everything's happening right there for the first time so how does it work well it's not about me trying to be the funniest or me trying to be the star what i'm trying to do is help everybody else be successful set them up and in turn they're gonna help me and set me up and that's a really important concept that we can take to any work situation the challenge is asking the question how do i help the people around me be successful answering that because you know what people need to be successful your customers your partners your vendors your teammates you know what they need the hard part is to act on it and when you do act on it we create something really special fun is one thing we're creating when we're helping people be successful i that brings me a lot of joy when i refer somebody when i recommend somebody when i make a connection that brings me great joy in my juggling and my plain ping pong and i drinking free espresso no but what i've done is i made a connection that brings me fun that brings me joy and so you know that's what i want people to think about are we create opportunity or we're being positive and supportive with each other are we helping each other be successful and you don't have to take my word for it every time there's a lit great industries great places to work you know great companies they all say the same thing they they they they may use different words or different phrases but they're saying the same thing they're appreciated they feel like they have a freedom they have opportunity you know they're using these words and that is what we're doing is we're creating this ecosystem of fun that's what fun means to me you mentioned the word improv so first all if someone's not heard of improv today briefly what it is and then i really wanna find out how that that seems to form the basis of a lot of stuff you did so improv for those not initiated there's no script there's no rehearsal there's no plan everything's happening right there on stage for the first time when i moved to dallas which is where i live to work for the newspaper the first weekend some friends took me to an improv show and it was like it was a movie experience where the music goes and the light shines because it was i was drawn to it it was love it first sight it was just this amazing connection that i that i i was an audience volunteer i jumped on stage with the performers when i had an opportunity not just randomly like i'm just jumping on stage if they ask for an audience volunteer and i i love i fell in love i mean deep deep love and i didn't know how or why or that i was going to do this so and then they said the magical world words we teach improv workshops and i could not get my money out fast enough and that was my respite that was my oasis at this very tough job which i mentioned you know covering dark you know murders and crime and terrible things and that this was my respite this was my oasis each week to go to this class and i loved it and when i lost my job i started doing stand up comedy and then i audition to join the the troop and i just got in with some just incredible performers that are just some some some of the funniest people i've ever met in my life and and we just had a ball for years until till the till the club closed and and so i one of my clients i was at the time working at p and c and one of my clients said i know you do improv on the weekends we're having this executive retreat can you come play some improv games with us before dinner and so all men vp level it's an it company they they create notebook computers so if you're thinking about a group that's ready to have fun in play this is not the group you would think of how and so i just create the opportunity for play and so we played some improv games and they laughed and they had fun because everybody truly wants to play sometimes we're just not given the opportunity and i created that opportunity and i gave them that positive support which are two things leaders have to give to create that fun opportunity and positive support and we learned and we started talking about some of the choices that that improv taught me and that was the beginning and it started evolving and people would ask me to speak and i would play improv games and just have fun and just share my love of improv and then i started talking about what improv meant to me what improv taught me about teamwork and leadership and change and innovation and communication so it's because it's a fantastic art form and it just continually evolved until twenty five hundred events later i'm on the greatest podcast in the world a truth lies in work i said probably so that you can't sue me joel got a very specific warning about the kind of managers who will absolutely destroy any chance of creating genuine fun at work he calls them dumb ass managers and believe me you'll recognize them immediately we'll be back after this very short break hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like it it is of course brought to you by the hopes spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes than that end endlessly we positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the perspective of a millennial or something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love it love phil a fellow millennial who's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh nationals has the best name to be said in the extract voice lenses papa dun welcome back let's hear about the mag who eat your fun and then discover joel ted up philosophy let me ask you about d or you called dams d how do you say that from the book dumb ass manager can we say that on the podcast we absolutely can and we just have okay dumbass manager we've all come across a dumbass manager and i have a chapter where i kind of talk about different managers that i've encountered in my in my work and travel and and and i think some of those managers might seem familiar to some people and and the one that you had to really be afraid of is the the da the dumbass manager and they're they're out there then and what they wanna do is they wanna eat your fund they wanna they wanna eat it and take it they don't care about you and they don't care about whether you're having your you have opportunity or you're being fulfilled or you're you you're receiving positive support and appreciation i've had dumbass managers i had one that i stopped talking to he stopped talking me first so i said well then okay i don't i'm just gonna talk to the principal of the adding agency if i need to talk to anybody i don't need to talk to you there was here i think it was a bad situation that job was was bad from the get go i did meet my wife there so i guess yeah i guess that that would have seen pretty positive we've been married twenty three years and so you know that was a tough job i knew as soon like i knew the first day i'm like i made i made a bad choice here i remember going in the office my office and i had i don't it was literally the worst office chair i don't know it it it was just i i the first thing my first action of my first day was i went into my office and took the office that's nasty office chair and threw it out into the hall and i asked for a new office chair and and they refused and so i took one from the conference room and i said you can have this back when you buy me a new chair that's a true story let's talk let's talk about tada it seems that every every video watched of you at some point use this phrase so what does it mean do you say tada in the uk yeah i mean it's generally it feels like a like a magician but more of an old school or or old school tada yeah right yeah so does a flourish right and and you know you kind of see it every once in a while in commercials or or shows you know and and someone inevitably always sends me a clip or a photo with somebody saying it there's a product there's some products that say tada the people spell it different ways when my kids were younger everything was a tada today right my kid you know they eat a cheese sandwich and we're like tada you did it you ate the whole sandwich you know they they they stand up when they were learning to to walk and you're like tada you did it you stood up right everything's a when you're when you're little your parents are to today you multiple times a day and the the child builds confidence you see it in their eyes their body language they get a big smile when you go tada you did it right you're you're giving them appreciation you're giving them positive support it fuels whatever they're doing they're gonna do more of and so we have these moments even though we get older we still have to dove moments we just don't celebrate them we just think it's our regular day to day activity whatever we're doing we're marketing we're accounting we're doing hr we're doing it well this is what i was hired to do i don't need to celebrate this and you should because that fuels our passion fuels our creativity it fuels our ability to be great communicators and great teammates and great leaders and so my philosophy is that we have to celebrate these moments being on this podcast huge that moment right everything we have these moments and we have to celebrate you know when i send emails i end every email with a today if you go back and look at any email that i sent you i bet it ends in today you might even start with it today right we're celebrating and i think it's a philosophy and and in my keynote the first thing i do is have the whole audience stand up and on the count three we just all big and people love it and and then people will come up to me randomly throughout if they see me in the hall they'll in the bathroom that's the only time i don't want it to do i don't want it to do in the bathroom i think we forget to celebrate we forget to celebrate these moments we forget to celebrate you know that we're here that we're working together that we're hopefully doing something that brings us joy that helps other people that create something that we believe in and that we're passionate about and and so we have to celebrate these moments because it's it fuels us and and tada is the way i explain that concept tada not everyone is quite as extroverted or as fun loving on the outside as you and perhaps me so if you are in a situation where you have encouraged the majority of people to have fun but there's still some people who are perhaps a little shy perhaps a little perhaps feel uncomfortable about it should we be actually going out and trying to pull them into the phone or is i making things more complicated that's a very good question you know i bring audience volunteer volunteers up on stage and my clients always ask well there's you know bob from accounting bob's not gonna keep up bob stage i'm like i i don't want bob to come up on stage i want bob to enjoy it the way he enjoys it and if as long as bob's in the room i hope bob's gonna get something out of it i don't need bob to jump on stage and play an improv game with me i don't want anybody to do something they don't want to do i mean we are getting of our comfort zone that's where we learn you know we learn outside of our comfort zone but i don't i don't need bob to jump on stage if bob's not comfortable with that i get it and not everybody's gonna be me i get it but what i don't wanna do is exclude people from you know from the opportunity i'm gonna give you the opportunity you choose to jump on stage you choose to participate if you choose not to that's that's up to you if you wanna watch i hope you get something out of it i think you'll get more out of it if you join us but i can't make you and so but i don't wanna say out you need to leave you're not welcome you're absolutely welcome here and i want you to enjoy it at your pace at your speed and i think you're gonna get something out of it and i want you to feel included and i want you to feel that you're you have the opportunity and that i believe in you and i think that's i think that's what leaders have to think about not everybody's gonna be you know jumping around and i'm not asking you to jump around but what does that person the leader in the the manager needs to go to that person and say what makes you happy what makes you fulfilled what can i do what opportunity do you need that's gonna really make you happy and fulfilled and they're gonna give you i hope they give you an answer and as a as a manager then you provide that opportunity and they're gonna have fun it's again their fun is different than my fun i'm not asking everybody to jump around and sing songs and play a harmonic but i wanna find out what makes you happy what makes you fulfilled and i wanna create that opportunity for you and that's the job of the manager because everybody's different everybody's coming at it from a different perspective but i want again that's the manager making sure that it's inclusive we're gonna have this awesome we're gonna have this we're gonna do something that's fun and en digitizing and i want you to participate but if you feel more comfortable watching then then i want you to do that i don't want i want you but i wanna include you it's a particular in a moment that sticks in your mind from all the thousands of clients you've work with all the thousands of speaking engagements you you've you've done i have many many stories and i love when someone after my keynote comes up to me and says anne from accounting that she jumped on stage with you i never believed that she would won ever volunteer ever jumped on stage ever imitate a baller arena a bull rider in an astronaut on stage she never showed any of that and that surprised me and that happens almost every time i present is that somebody jumps on stage and surprises you didn't expect it because i just again create the opportunity i'm very positive very supportive the audience is laughing and plotting and what happens is the people on stage do more they take more risk because they're receiving that positive support that's an amazing chemistry but every time i present somebody says i can't believe and did that i can't believe lisa did that i can't believe steve did that and it's just about creating that opportunity one funny story that i i wrote about in the book was my favorite introduction and his name was bob his name was actually bob bob was an older gentleman and he was reading the introduction this about five hundred people in the in the ballroom i'm standing on the side ready to jump on stage and have fun bob's got this sheet of paper he's reading the introduction one problem is that bob is reading the introduction of the speaker from the day before and his name was scott and scott was a magician and bob is reading this introduction with gust what you're gonna just be amazed by scott the magician and i'm like what is happening and no one in the audience there's no murmur there's nobody going wait we saw scotty yesterday why why why is scotty back nobody's saying anything so i don't know if anybody attended scott session or not and i'm trying to get the i'm trying to get the attention of the executive director and i'm pointing to the stage like what's going on he's not listening he's got a million things going on in his head he's not listening and he's like what things are good yeah it's good introduction and so i'm tried luckily scott the magician introduction was really long i have a short introductions so scott introduction was long so bob just reading about all the accolades scott the magician and i realized my microphone was on and i said i said bob really loud i went bob and bob just kinda you know startled you know i'm like bob i go you're doing an awesome job with the introduction incredible one issue just a small small note you're reading the introduction from the speaker yesterday scott the magician my name is joel i'm the speaker today any chance you could read my introduction the audience just cracks they're lab i mean it's just it's it's it's just and pneumonia and bob is just completely startled the executive director jumps up and it's kind of like a movie scene you know where like like a comedy like a buster keaton and papers are like flying around and so the executive directors at the le turn and like papers are just flying around like a cartoon looking for my introduction and he grabs it he gives it to bob the audience is just dying and laughing and i i'm still going i'm just i'm just i'm just shoveling coal into the fire at this point and i'm saying i'm like bob i could try to do magic but i'm not good i'm not good at magic i go i could try and so bob finally reads my introduction the audience it it what it did was if this could happen every time i did a keynote that would be grapes because it just created this immediate connection with the audience and they were just just ready to laugh and to have fun and then i made a big point about bob staying in the game which is a big message of mine is that you don't give up you don't quit the only the only thing improv won't allow you to do won't allow you to quit and bob did not quit bob did not just run off stage and like well forget it that someone gave be the wrong introduction he stuck with it and he read my introduction with just as much gust as he read scott the magicians and i made a big point that that i was very proud of bob and the audience gave a big round of applause and i also said bob i just want you to know one thing it's not your fault at all it's that guy's fault gave you the wrong introduction that guy right there that guy that's his fault again the audience laughs and just made this connection i love it it was just you know people ask me you know do you what what happens if things go wrong or something happens i'm like i'm just i'm like a shark with chu in the water i can't wait for something like that to happen that's these are this these are the magic moments this will never happen again and and the audience knows it's a magic moment that's what we're after and improv that's what we're after or after these magic moments that we create with other performers there's no script there's no rehearsal we're trying to find this perfect moment that just makes this connection with the audience with the performers that is just absolutely incredible that we know is just happening this lightning in a bottle it's just happening in in this moment and you know it's happening you know when it's happening and it you get you know little goosebumps and your hair stands up and you just know your whole physical body you just know this moment is happening and those are really the special moments and i'm after those moments i'm seeking them out every time i jump on stage for a client when i'm presenting a keynote and we're having fun we're laughing and we're creating these moments but we're also i think it's important to understand that we're talking about these really powerful messages that help us be great teammates and great leaders and great communicators and these choices that help us find our guiding light to be passionate to create fun at work to find success during change disruption that we're talking about these choices but i just choose to talk about them through play and fun because i think people are more engaged they're more open to the message and and they're gonna retain the message because they're having fun they're laughing and that's creates a very powerful combination absolutely they're giving lots of choices but they're making the right choice which is the name the the name of your book it wins out tell us that was that might be the brown liquid talking make the right choice lead with passion elevate your team and unleash the fun at work everything that we talked about on the podcast i talk about in the book in much greater detail each chapter has lots of ideas games that you can play to create fun at work things that you can do to find to help you discover your guiding light to focus on your fun to be a better teammate a better leader a better communicator and and i hope you have fun along the way when you read the book we're talking about these great messages about creating opportunity and the importance of positive support and staying in the game being more present in the moment helping the people around you be successful but i tell stories and i want you to have fun i want you to laugh because that's what i'm all about if i create that fun and energy for you the reader i think you're gonna be more engaged in the message in the books available everywhere internationally so someone's listening they go this sounds amazing joel i really wanna be the person you're telling me i should be but it just seems like a huge gap between where i am now which is something of a wall flower to where i wanna be which is the person who introduces fun at work how do i start everybody has to take the first step and once you take the first step then you take the second step and the third step and you know the baseball player the football player they weren't great the first day they touched the ball so you have to take that first step and a week goes by and two weeks go by a month goes by and everything that you're putting into it adds up and i think it's just about taking that first step you you might make mistakes it's okay we wanna minimize them we wanna learn from them improv embraces the mistakes we want we don't be afraid to make that mistake don't be afraid to take that rip that's what improv about we want you to embrace and take that first step and just like with everything it gets easier aft on the second step and the fifth step and the tenth step and the hundred step it gets easier and it you become more comfortable and you become more confident but you have to take that first step and you don't have to reinvent the wheel you can google fun at work or ideas to bring joy at work and you know there's a million articles will will jump up million podcasts and so i think it's just making that first step important that's that's the first step is is creating that positive support create an opportunity helping the people around you be successful and you know asking your your your team members what makes you happy what makes you fulfilled what can i do to bring that to you and you're gonna be surprised what the answer is and you're gonna be surprised how easy it is for you to give them that opportunity to create that happiness to create that fulfillment and believe me funds a big part of all of that if people wanna go and learn more about you is it joel f dot com yes that's perfect and anybody mention truth lives and work podcast mention a send me a note through my website and i will send you a free chapter of my book make the right choice so i'm gonna send you a chapter about change and embracing change and being more open and flexible to change and finding success during change and disruptions of beautiful pdf with lots of photos of me looking goofy and we'd love to send that free chapter just send me an email through the website and mention the awesome truth lies and work podcast podcasts by a elliott that was joel z let's wrap up with our top three takeaways for leaders who want to bring this genuine fun and energy to their team and of course you do lesson one you knew this already regular listener fun isn't about ping pong tables it's about phil ask your team what makes them happy and create opportunities for that yeah lesson number two is master your positive support and appreciation like joel says if you can't give appreciation you shouldn't even be a manager think about everyone you interacted with today did you give them the appreciation they deserved lesson three celebrate the total moments whether it's finishing a project or help me a colleague acknowledge it to make it visible as we said at the top joel approach isn't about forcing enthusiasm it's about creating the environment where people can bring their authentic energy to work you can find joel at joel z dot com that's j o e l z e f f dot com and mentioned truth and work for a free chapter off his book so that is all for today's summer edition keeps celebrating those to moments and we're gonna see you next week tada bye bye

hello and welcome to truth life and work the award winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture we are brought to you by the hopes hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is lia and believe it or not i'm still a charged occupational psychologist until they strike you off my name is a i'm a business owner until i go bankrupt again again if you if you've less you already know but anyway we're here to help me simplify the signs of work kind of this august we've been practicing what we preach and actually taking some time off your charge yeah but we're not leaving you hanging obviously every tuesday were still sharing something a little bit more relaxed usually recorded on the terrace of the glass wine not take though because it's raining to it's raining first i moved but to be fair first rainy day since june since june so you our friends in the uk particularly in manchester or yeah i'm sorry about alex yeah but we're still bringing you something a little light hearted albeit on this this raining what they call it rainy day play day yeah well used to call it indoors school there's school it school wet play but that's that's something we don't to start a work not a term we really wanna be using you see it out loud yeah moving on the mask but you do want something a bit more serious it's not too serious it's not too serious but check out thursday and this thursday you'll actually hear from a guest who's all about bringing joy back into the workplace this week that's joel za he's an improv comedian comedian and author who's also worked with microsoft mcdonald's american express and wells fargo very fancy and also just a really genuinely nice guy very very happy but today it is tuesday so we've got part one of our chat with the brilliant guys at ne journey that's john white and nick court now their podcast helps tech professionals grow their careers and they've got nearly three hundred and fifty episodes of insights in everything from management careers and over overcoming obstacles to just have to be professional nerd yeah it's an awesome podcast that we've had the real privilege of being on in the past and more recently and that's the episode we're gonna be sharing with you today so after this very short break you'll hear part one of our conversation with nick and john on the nerd journey podcast don't go anywhere you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems south maria hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and that fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new sign ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better welcome to the nerd journey podcast our goal is to help you the technology professional accelerate your career progression increase your job satisfaction and be more effective in your existing role we wanna bring listeners like you the career advice we wish we've been given earlier in our careers i'm john white at v journey on twitter sharing c host duties within court at network nerd underscore we're two former it operations guys who have moved on to pre sales roles with technology vendors we have our opinions well we also like to highlight the journeys of others and see what we can learn from them we'd also like to ask for your feedback to make us a conversation not a one way broadcast email us at nerd journey podcast at gmail dot com or dms at nerd journey on twitter so come join us on our nerd journey let's take a trip episode three hundred forty what happens when you're expected to lead a large team as a people manager how exactly are you gonna succeed in doing that according to business psychologist lia elliott one way to produce team cohesion might just be to focus on task cohesion leanne and her husband a a business owner are the c host of the truth lies and work podcast both leanne and a have been former guests on our show but we've never had them on together until today here's way you can expect to learn from part one of our discussion this week with leanne and a we'll talk about the uncertainties in the world and how those have impacted business owners entrepreneurs and especially people managers you'll hear about the industry trend of layoffs how and why this might be leading to flatter organizations and larger teams for people managers to lead but despite all these challenges despite the environmental situation we talk through some practical ways that people managers can still succeed address the problems deliver the results and manage to support positive change and positive relationships with the members of their team let's get you to part one of our discussion with a and lia elliott allen lia and elliott welcome back to the nerd thank you so much for having is it such joy to be back really is we we so weird with being together but yeah we both individually loved our experience in there jenny that's right we had you on individually because i think scheduling wise it just didn't quite work out to have you together i do wanna say that each of those interviews went amazingly well and i think that we got just tons and tons of positive feedback on on each one of them we're really happy to have you back jointly this time well thank you so much for fact way we we we we love conversation video the yeah they're awesome we wanted a discussion i guess centered in job uncertainty and maybe economic uncertain times so it's it's just a a theme that we're revisiting in this cyclical world right a few years back it was all about boom times and you know should you leave your job after one year for a better job and you know advising people on that and and right now it's advising people in times of uncertain so we definitely wanted to have you on because you know we knew that you have you know fairly unique takes on that and we also want to shine the light on the elephant from from different parts of the room to get the entire picture you know so to speak k you know we're fairly us centric so we don't we don't necessarily see like the a worldwide view of economic uncertainty and job uncertainties can you give us a a little bit of a different perspective do you think in the uk especially that uncertainty is the perfect word for each feature there is a lot of uncertainty and with that a lot of businesses are some are making the but i think generally speaking comparison to the us there's more of a pause and that pause means a lack of growth the lack of investment sales are slowing down revenues slowing down people are fearful because they can see that in the business and a phrase that i've been hearing a lot recently from uk business owners and i don't know if this is maybe a lag from the pandemic or with the general uncertainty we're seeing in the world in terms of geopolitics and climate sharing and jin and everything else now business owners aren't in the uk student growth they're pursuing lifestyle business so a business that is big enough to provide the lifestyle that they want and provide the the purpose of meaning in their work that they want but rapid hyper growth is no longer the number one priority yeah and i mean i don't know whether it's say the similar stats saying in the us but in the uk i think it's something like ninety six percent of the people are employed by small businesses and when they say small business is two hundred and fifty people or below so they're they're responsible small businesses are responsible for the majority of people the vast majority of people getting them getting employed and my personal political views aside i think almost universally is accepted this government in the uk the labor government which i think is your according to your democrats they're not really doing the things that they need to do to stabilize business and stabilize sort of commerce in the uk and it's meaning that a lot of people at the said there are big businesses who are frightened as in light i might lose my job and a new ceo come in but the smaller businesses would say fifty sixteen employees are frightened going if i don't get this right i'm gonna lose everything and everyone's gonna lose their job so i think you're right uncertainty is unfortunately it looks like it's gonna be here to stay for a little bit does the focus on lifestyle that you spoke to lia in from the top of those small businesses do you think they're also being extremely mindful about their employees lifestyle too or is it more centric toward the top from the business owners i've i've spoke to and and heard of through colleagues they are mindful their employees mindful in that let's not pursue growth necessarily during a time uncertainty and take that risk that a said could derail entire business rather that let's just sit with what we've got focus on quality focus on efficiencies and automations rather than necessarily pursue growth at this time i think the other main issue for uk businesses i said with the labor government coming in we've seen a lot of new and employment laws coming in that on paper sound great but in execution actually bring a lot of risk for businesses so for example rights to flexible working on day one the national living wage basically more rights for employees which is great but what that means is when an organization doesn't feel a equipped to and embed those new laws very effectively they aren't sure how and aren't given the guidance from the government in terms of how to do that they hesitate so they won't make any new hires under these new rules or they'll change how they're employing people in in certain ways may engaging more contractors than full time employees so i think yes they're mindful i'm not sure they're putting them maybe front and center of every business decision they're making i honestly think that is is being driven at the moment by a lot of uncertainty a lot of ambiguity and if i'm being honest a bit fair and does that fear crush the entrepreneurial spirit a for those people who are really love being entrepreneurs and starting up new businesses for example or maybe they they already have a business and they're the the top person at that small business yeah and they founded it kinda back to your story in episodes two hundred thirty five and thirty six i'd love to get your take on that i think true entrepreneurs they live for challenges and when things are going well that's when they normally mess it up so they'll get year five years six year seven and they've had plateau in revenue but still doing very well and they will just crash the business if they're left to their own devices so i think entrepreneurs react well to challenges in the first of three to four years their business so this is just another challenge where i think the problem might lie is back in the uk there was something called ir thirty five which was in and revenue thirty five was a statue which allowed you to employ contractors to do basically your job rather or do jobs rather than employing them permanently because when you employed them permanently you had to make sure you give pension staff here to pay sort of a national insurance i know these are uk centric terms but i'm sure it's very very similar across in the in the us and so a lot of people would to go into this ir thirty five so they go i'll have a contractor because it's so much simple i can just end their contract and then i think that a lot of people over the last ten years have moved to like no no it's safe we were gonna have where we'll have proper employees who are properly employed because you know it's a bit more flexible and is it's proper way of doing it and i fear we're gonna go back to that way because as leanne anne says and the anne to a much much more to the to the actual legislation than i can but it just feels an entrepreneur like it's a risk to employ another person because oh my goodness of got i think about all these other things that the lady rug governor brought in and also other the labor gonna say that i can't i can't fire anyone are they gonna say that if i fire someone have to give them six months like in lithuania in a lot of europe if you fire someone in spain if you fire someone you have to give them six months salary that's just a huge risk in terms of employing people and that could genuinely bring a young business down so i think i would like to think that entrepreneurs are sort of glass half full they're like okay this another challenge will work our way around it but i can see having a big impact on the decision of whether how quickly to scale with with employee b but what are your thoughts yeah i i agree and i think it's it's remembering that i mean globally and in the uk as well it has been relentless for business owners since twenty sixteen you know i had the referendum then we had the pandemic we've gone through five prime ministers in as many years we've just had a recent complete government change it has been so much disruption and so much change that i honestly think entrepreneurs business leaders are exhausted they're burning out and with that like you say an entrepreneur wants to keep fighting they want to keep going but it's how they invest to energy another thing that that we've seen from business owners in the uk is is choosing this lifestyle business and with the extra time they're freeing up through this improved quality of process and automation is actually spending more time on on side hustle on passion projects they're actually looking at what they've enjoyed most about building their business and setting up another stream of their business it focuses purely on that whether that be talent management acquisition training and development but yes certain aspects that they gain energy from so during this period where the business may be fairly stable they're finding other ways to fill that entrepreneurial need and that that meaningful work that they're currently lacking in a business that isn't in a growth stage which is hard for an entrepreneur so i think we're seeing people diversify a little bit what they're doing with their business but much more an individual level than an organizational one is it similar in the uk to the us where a lot of these laws apply basically at the verge where you're transitioning from small to medium sized business or maybe from very small business to small business so we have some things where it's like oh yeah here's this amount of protection that you get but that's for businesses above twenty five people or is it does it kind of apply across the board i'm not an expert in employment law but my understanding is it doesn't matter how smaller or larger organization is your first employee these employment laws apply and that's why for small businesses it's such a a drastic shift and such high risk that as our said businesses are just choosing not not to really focus on growth and until they figured out exactly how this all all applies and how it's gonna work out i think that maybe there's this danger of basically growing your organization to a certain size and then there's like a chilling effect potentially at least in the us to to grow beyond a certain size which kind of feeds into this idea of like well maybe i'll start a new business with these these things that i've learned and i'll just have maybe five very small businesses each kind of having this like diversified source of income i'm rather than take on the additional risk of of growing beyond a certain size i can understand you know different laws in different local and you know i'm sure in the states it's like you know this state has this lawn this state has this other law so i'm sure it's very very you know you get these like micro climates right of of innovation and and business friendliness versus employee like protection maybe this leads to venue shopping right like i'm gonna start a business in this area but not this area i'll hire people from here and have them travel in or something like that this is not gonna fly with my wife and c but there's something around the countries which allow businesses to employ and fire fairly easily in a in a you know in a a short period of time because you can then just sort of like build something without worrying that you're got you've got to pay someone six months worth of salary if you do fire them whereas there are some places where i don't know what it's like in the us but where you can just go right let's try them out let's try them out for six weeks and it's they're no good fine on your on your bike and that does allow an entrepreneur to go okay i feel a bit free and a bit safer about recruiting people but as i said that's not gonna fly with the with the culture experts because that's probably not the way you do it i think it's a balance and i think my understanding is in terms of uk law there is a window that be three months or six months or you could have probation periods where the full kind of rights of employees weren't fully applied until you passed that said probation period that is what has now been scrapped so you have the same rights as an employee's been there six years on the first day that you've been in work so the fact is that i could turn up to work and go off on my first day off six for six months and and still get you know the pay that the company complete promises to pay in the statutory pain things like that there's a trust issue we actually had somebody on on the show a wonderful up and becoming psychologist and she was pointing out that there's a trust crisis at the minute because we've had so much push and pull and power swings over the last few years sometimes the employees have the the power and they can move on as you were saying know after a year and a job for a higher salary and then we saw all the layoffs and then ends up fair from employees so people people stay longer and i think that with the change in laws geopolitics there's so much conflict in every sense of the words society and in our workplaces people are just lacking trust trust in their businesses like trust in their leaders lacking trust in their colleagues we're seeing massive increases in what we call workplace and civility in a minute which isn't bullying or harassment it's it's a level deal from that but equally problematic where it's in fighting it's gossip it's withholding information from a colleague that's on the rise because this is issue with trust so i think having these laws come in a great on paper but as always zwift seems to be the uk government what's great on paper and it comes from the right place the execution is never thought through is never thought through well how does actually this same law reply as you were saying in john to a business that has ten employees are expected to meet and worked with the same expectations and laws and the gala as a business with ten thousand employees the impact of going through a tri is very different for an organization of ten thousand with the internal resources to manage that than a small business only ten people so these blanket laws are necessarily helping businesses i don't think they're always helping employees in the way that they're intended to yeah the the idea is in the right place the execution they haven't quite got right hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted but actually men's baba day then i think you're really gonna like it it is of course brought to you by the spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that ends endlessly positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the perspective of a millennial or something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love phil love phil a fellow millennial who's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley also has the best name to be said in the x factor voice ash man barbara thunder workplace civility at scale and the trust crisis at scale to me translates to oh i'm seeing all these layoffs from large companies and flattening name of management layers and things like that i think this naturally leads us into that topic why do you think so many of these organizations at least the ones we hear about in articles and on linkedin and from people we know are choosing to flatten out some of the management layers and increase those manager to individual contributor ratios because that's it's part of the byproduct of some of these layoffs seems like i think there's a few reasons all of these things that are cyclical i think it's going back in in very again to have less hierarchy there's a belief that that kind of more i guess more startup structure is better for innovation and and collaboration which is lacking in our workplaces right now i'm not i don't think it's because of the structure of the organization but it's lacking another big one is that it's been very publicized over the last eighteen months or so the the issue we have with not training our managers sufficiently is when the eighty two percent of managers accidental and they didn't necessarily en en managing people is part their role but that was just the next step up so they took took it i read a stat yesterday and it's only only forty four percent of managers ever had any form of training so more than half of our managers aren't equipped with the skills they need to lead our people and there the people the managers have a single biggest impact on employee performance motivation engagement outcomes productivity so for an organization who is hearing these things and i'm looking at their business of where to make cuts there's an element of wool if our managers are inefficient we could train them or we could just let them go because they have the highest salaries too so actually from a bottom line perspective that makes sense i can't imagine that it's a thought through seriously considered approach because for me if you have great managers they're the people that drive a success your business i think when we talked last time calling you a managers where culture keeps a lovely phrase that you came up with nick and they really are i think it's naive to think that removing a manager is gonna solve all these problems it's not because people still want and need people to to look to in an organization when there's is a there's a distance in a a sense of removal from senior leadership but but i i think there may be the reasons why they're the higher paid there's a it seems that it's verb right now to flatten out our organizations to be more agile it seems to be back in in fashion as well an element that it's been very publicized managers have the single biggest impact if we're not willing to invest in great managers let's just remove them but you gotta remember though that if you're looking at a like a p and l or you know a financial statement then if you were to attribute the revenue then it's very difficult to attribute revenue directly to a manager but it's it's easy to attribute to an or someone on the production line or whatever or sales or something like that so the temptation for a brutal cfo to sit there and go well let's just caught the meat trim the fat i think is that is the term near because it's difficult looking at spreadsheet to see the impact of what a manager does and particularly if you are if that's what you live in if you live in spreadsheets and you're making the decisions based on numbers it's a no brainer to get rid of these people what i think exactly what he i'm saying what they don't understand is that the ic produces ten thousand a hundred thousand dollars a week in terms of revenue because they've got an amazing manager did the cfo doesn't always see that and i'm i'm not i'm not sort of necessarily picking on cfo here but anyone who's make a decision on spreadsheets it's it's name it's been natural to come back conclusion i think and oh by the way if you're one of those managers who hasn't been trained and you stay you get more people too on top of perhaps the inexperienced and lack of training we're gonna ask you to maybe double the number of employees that you're managing yeah i've been hearing ratios of managers managing fifteen even teams of twenty people and i tried to do thirty minute one on once with every single employee on my team and then if you are you know count the additional like you know upstream meetings that you have and lateral meetings that you have with twenty people there's just no way that you have that level of attention right no because i'm i'm sure also that these managers aren't giving more time to manage with the bigger team they still have to do everything the answer and do in terms of their administration or their their job in general they just now have more people to manage so we're not freeing up more time what's problematic about that and it comes under a fundamental misunderstanding of of relationships within the workplace teams in the workplace is it daniel priest that's like the magic number is twelve yes you're thirteenth higher thirteenth powers of a small business you're your small business your thirteenth powers is when you're gonna start to see people problems potentially because is at that point as a as a group of of size people start to break off into smaller teams so a clicks will start to form it becomes a number that is just too difficult to manage as you said on in a very cohesive time efficient way so for an organization who's now expecting middle managers senior managers to manage teams at fifteen to twenty is hugely problematic particularly if they're not trained we're setting up our managers yet again for failure it seems like it's a much larger more impactful failure if he didn't do well or you were shown the door after being put in that situation but you still wanted to be a manager someday day it seems like it'd be much more difficult to get back to that somewhere yeah we're very good at internal our failures and not very good at internal our achievements and our success is that's why you know we get it we hear up to eighty percent of people will report the of impostor syndrome that's what imp syndrome stems from an inability to internalize our achievements so for a manager it particularly a manager who wants to be a great manager you know the intention is there to have gone through that that experience and that potential failure is gonna be it's it's what we call workplace trauma that we've taught about as well before trauma with a lower t and that is devastating to somebody's career their self they're are their belief that they can do their job well it's detrimental it's psychological harm we are causing potentially to these managers by not giving them the tools and the resource and the support that they need it it highly responsible for organizations to take this approach even in that type of environment where it's challenging is there a way that the managers who are in those seats who really care about doing good job who are willing to dig in and do it can be effective absolutely i think my first advice would be we want to focus on the relationships right because that's where all the goods stuff comes from and we've got great relationships with our our people when you're dealing with it team at this size fifteen to twenty people that's really hard to manage effectively particularly if you're a new manager or an experienced manager my advice to any imagine in that situation is to focus on task cohesion which is much more transactional and much easier to get right so what's the workflow who's doing what who just want what order would has does that contribute to the overall outcomes we're trying to deliver in and how does a role feed into my role and what do i do to make a job easier if we can build in the systems and the processes that mean that task cohesion is really strong then that means that over time we're gonna build team cohesion as a byproduct of that because you'll know anecdotally if you were with a colleague that you don't know particularly well but oh my gosh they make your job so much easier you love them you wanna have a conversation with them over a coffee you wanna get to know a bit more wanna learn more about what they do and and who they are and where they're from because it it breeds what the opposite of instability is not surprising his workplace civility is that respect is that mutual appreciation that can be much more easily achieved by striving for task cohesion and then once you've got that right then you can start to nurture the the team cohesion that people need and i guess from a a relationship perspective in terms of of helping your team operate in an environment that feels functional it's really understanding everything we talked about before when we've had to previous conversation in terms of this team chart what does great look like towards what behavior accept or which aren't but more so than that it's taking the time to check it doesn't need to be a formal thirty minute one to one it could be a five minute phone call on it choose the saying how you doing anything making your job harder stay what can i you to make your job easier as a manager what's really bugging you because if you just had those little check ins which seemed much less time intensive you'll start to see the themes coming across and the issues that are bugging people across the team and that can be a really effective ways kind of kind of troubleshooting and putting out those little fires in a much more time effective way than you need to send you this more formal formal one to one's reviews of course that might be an obligation you have within the organization but if you don't add i'd focus more on just that genuine checking in genuine care of actually what can i do to make your job easier to do and there's the pareto isn't there of the eighty twenty where eighty percent of your problems that come from twenty percent of your team and then you go one step further into the eighty twenty the eighty twenty and then like i think it's like sixty four percent of your problems come from four percent of your team or something like that please correct me if this is if if you disagree with this but i think a lot of managers got got twenty people i need to go and spend an hour with every single all of those twenty people this week and that's twenty hours and then i've got another ten hours of meetings what am i gonna give it work done when actual fact if you were to sort of prioritize and go on actually really the problem the fires are here so that's why he's been an hour but like the answer is just a five minute quick email or a slack or something of just going how are you going on with that thing or you know i heard that x happened are you okay that sort of stuff i don't know it feels like that's a bit more manageable to me for managing twenty people and just going i'm gonna have to do an hour for each one of the week what are your thoughts absolutely the only thing i'd to say is is make it a phone call and i know that can be can be a bit difficult especially especially for melanie millennials in and jen z were much more used to messaging in slacks and that type of thing but it it provides another task that i'm i now have to add to my list might just sent me a message i'm gonna have to apply it and i'm fine financially but it's that distraction that i'm gonna have to have to go back to you well actually there's a massive problem i don't know how to approach it and i'm gonna over think about it for the next three hours and and that's gonna distract me for what i'm doing pick up the phone i don't might not always feel the most comfortable thing to do but honestly once you get into the habit of it and once your employees get into the habit of that that more vocal check ins it's much more time efficient and and less emotional load potentially you touch on upon a couple things there one is the the thing that you just mentioned which is you know make those connections actually count and just because you're going through the motions of a connection tasks doesn't mean that you're you're making quality connections so strive for the quality connections over checking off the tasks and then the first one earlier point was the myth of the peanut butter spreading of your your time right across everybody like i'm gonna give everybody an equal amount of time because that's fair but it's probably not fair in the application right like there's people who need way more time and people who need way less time so to give everybody equal time doesn't serve everybody yeah and a really good clue as well is if you have a member of your team that you really don't wanna have that conversation with because they that they feel a bit they're a bit more challenging they feel a bit more challenging that is an absolute sign that there's a difficult conversation need to be had that you you should have had already so i think if you're looking at who who needs time and and intention today think about the people that really don't wanna wanna pick up the phone too because it's probably something there that that yeah needs to the needs pick conversation i think that if you have work somewhere that has had a trend of layoffs as we see and you kinda get this una unanswered call from your boss you get that principal office feeling you know and it it's just an instant it just happens it's not that you want to think the worst thing but it's something unexpected you might have some trauma that's still there little ptsd d or whatever we wanna call it but when the manager says hey this is a good news call or i just need to check in on this one thing and they get right to it i think that helps if you get ptsd or anxiety when a manager books are calling with you and your manager not talking to not are because if that's what's triggering then you're like that items haven't spoken to this person for six months last time it was a bit of a warning that's not a great manager is it because a great manager someone who who does call you every week and says how's it going i heard that this happened did it work out alright yeah hundred percent you know what i'm i'm reflecting now i i was made redundant back in twenty fifteen still one of the hardest things to go through and i had a great at my manager would speak probably if not every day every other day whether it just be for it honestly sometimes just for a quick chat sometimes for a check sometimes they need a quick answer i answer the first like hi john everything alright went not really we need to have conversation i was like oh and that for me was the complete opposite i always just used to having those really positive conversation my manager so that yeah i don't know just reflecting on on my own experience i think as absolutely right that you want that relationship where that's a lust thing on your mind that could be what's about to happen of course and the current climate is on everybody's mind but i think that reassurance that it's yeah the relationship is is the the primary reason always that phone call i saw in linkedin i'm not sure is this we call or last week a really lovely post from a manager who worked didn't tech organization had had stayed in the organization had seen layoffs and very honestly said how devastating it was how sad it was this was the support he's gonna provide for the people who were leaving the organization that he was reaching out to various contacts and putting together various listed of roles available to the people that staged we do have this survivor guilt this is what i'm feeling is what my virus guilt currently looks like let's look after each other during this time and for me that was such a wonderful way to kind of go kind of a ground i wanna go this is really hard this is what i'm feeling this is what i'm gonna try and do to help what else do we need what else can we do and i think it's matches like that that you're never gonna be afraid to get a phone call from because even if it is the worst they've done everything they can to protect you in in the lead up to that moment and also just a real quick one with that and i know there's something you wanna go into but with that phone call you didn't go yeah good good you know do you have some time on friday i want you know we just wanna do a little bit of a chat might bring hr it was a no there's bad news this is the bad news and because the relationship was there i'm guessing then the bad news was devastating but at the same time you're like well i know you didn't i mean i don't know why i wasn't there yeah exactly it was devastating but it was he will now help me figure out how i move on from this in the immediate future where i have to lay off my entire team before i'm also laid off myself and what work potentially looks like in in the near future so i i think two sides to the coin based on everything we talked about absolutely yes you wanna have a great relationship with your managers so that you don't immediately think those things but i think that each person has their own level of trauma and ptsd that they're suffering from based on the environment regardless of whether you have a great manager or not that they probably have to fight those are the two kind of sides of the scale i think obviously if you have both well then you're really gonna have the anxiety about it i think this might be one of those cultural shifts because thirty years ago telephone is exactly how people communicated so getting a phone call was not like really a a traumatic thing whereas today you know even if my family members phoned me instead of text me i get the spike in in adrenaline and cortisol like oh no what's happened so maybe for a manager who's trying to establish that rhythm maybe there could be some kind of intermediate step where they text or message ahead of time you know even if it's just a a few minutes saying hey noticed you had this spot in your schedule open do you have time for an informal chat just trying to to meet up and checking on how things are going so it's just that preparation and then paving the way and then once that's the established rhythm of oh yes this manager checks in with me for five minutes by phone then doing it out of the blue becomes less of a a trauma you know potential like triggering event definitely definitely and i think absolute clarity is key so even saying just one i wonder if you got half an nav but informal still is a bit of ambiguity there i think if it is simple is growing everything's is good nothing's is wrong just gonna give you a call at this time to check in or what i did hear another man i did do during the early stage of covid dutch i thought was really really positive and proactive basically say i'm gonna i'm gonna call you at two o'clock every tuesday just check no agenda nothing you know on the cars just to just to see how you're doing in and to check in another really nice organic way of doing it is when you have we're tea meetings anyway or resume is allow the first five ten minutes just be like hey how's it going how is it how is your sister how do did they get on with this or how's that project going in oh that client's been in right pig i wouldn't they and just having an actual conversation allowing that time into that five ten at the beginning of the meeting it just establishes that this is part of our team culture this is part of our way of work in our way of operating having these more informal conversations for then you say john during that transition period it feels more comfortable a lot less scary and we'll just yeah very quickly become more natural and then why why shouldn't you be the manager who just does things differently why shouldn't you just be the person who goes will you go and work on on derek team over there you know he's gonna call you just so you know guys he's gonna call you just out of the blue don't worry it's just him checking in on you why shouldn't you be that manager because let's be honest you're gonna be there's gonna be stories about you in the organization you're gonna be known as the phone call manager as the boomer manager perhaps unique nickname because you pick up the phone and you talk to someone you no know i think you're right as long as you're aware that you are potentially triggering someone if they have been through that i'm sorry bad news phone call but at the same time it's the anne said it only takes two or three phone calls and it all to be good news and you going okay right nothing's wrong just wanna check on you yeah and it can't be performing it has to be with some intention it's not enough to hunch just to ring something and go i was no alright because we go yeah fine well these at least brits do yeah fine yeah fine you need a bit but a bit more of an intentional pressure a bit more of in a coaching question so i like i noticed his email come quinn from bob and it seemed it seemed a little bit direct as what's going on is everything alright you're okay how did you take that it's almost digging in a little bit more in finding a specific thing to talk about every good manager does anyway in terms of giving any type of feedback it be very specific and rooted in context it's the same for these casual phone calls if you got something rooted in context it's gonna help that conversation flow it's gonna start to breed that word of the mer psychological safety that people will actually feel that they're able to authentically open up so it can't just be yeah i'm gonna call you every tuesday for ten seconds and and make sure you're still alive it needs to be i'm gonna fur you we're gonna have a conversation because i'm genuinely interested in how you're doing what's going on in your work world and and if appropriate beyond them here's what i just heard in my head when when you and a were talking lia in what i heard you both kinda say was managers should be really good at interviewing people not just in job interviews but just in general to start and continue good conversations that's a really nice way to frame it yeah maybe that's a skill that the potential manager could highlight that they've gotten good at you know what i mean like and if you are someone who has become quite skilled in this area maybe that's something that you talk up during your interview if you wanna be a people manager yeah potentially but also there are a lot of managers out there and i don't know it's the same in the us in the uk you get on a train used to do it back twenty years ago you get on train and there'd always be someone sitting at sitting at a train table they open their laptop they get their mouse out they get their phone out and they go yeah i can't really talk them on the train and they've made the phone call and the point of that was just them going look how important i am now they weren't a manager it because they wanted to lead people who won't manage it because they cared about people who weren't manager it because they wanted to do interviewed people manager because they wanted to tell everyone they got promotion at work and they were important and i think that leslie anne pointed out was a lot of people who fallen into that and what is what was the status and forty four percent and people never got training was it yeah yeah and so they just think that's what being a manager is because what they've seen the the loud mouths who have been managers before and they're really important people who run ra with papers in the hand and they don't know that actually being a manager is almost the opposite is being quiet not loud yeah that's a lovely about being quiet not loud i think into interviewing questions or interviewing skills yes and i understand the perfect kind of crossover skill you've you've got that nick where i just nudge it slightly is it's less interviewing and more coaching questions oh okay so i think it's things like being genuinely in or asking questions that help somebody leads somebody to the next point of their thought process or the next thing that's that's troubling them for anyone out there who wants to be imagine is a manager and hasn't been trained with this already look at skills that are very embedded in coaching things like listening skills do with listening skills course that's can help you loads i mean if you can if you got the resources go on a coaching course it will be such a transformative experience for you in terms of your emotional intelligence yourself awareness how to engage with other people how to interact with other people without gender without judgment that's what i'd say is to highlight dia skill your curiosity your ability to encourage your ability to listen them i would snap up anyone even would had no experience at all i snap up anyone with their skills and so much so i'm afraid we'll have to cut it right there this time if you're one of those managers out there who isn't getting trained you can find that training elsewhere whether it's going to a seminar reading a book listening to some podcasts or as leanne suggested taking some coaching courses to make you more effective at asking questions communicating with your team building those relationships and driving the results you need to as a people leader i liked a encouragement to all of us that it's okay for a manager to do things a little bit differently to have that cork ness that's stylist imprint in the way you lead your team that produces a positive impact of course if you're looking for more on those topics of uncertainty i have a couple of links for you first check out our lay resources page at nerd dash journey dot com slash lay resources on that page you can find the most impactful conversations we've had on the topic of layoffs with experts like lia elliott for example and many technologists who have shared their stories of layoffs and the steps they took to get that next role hopefully you can find something there that's an encouragement and the help to you we also have our career uncertainty action guide which has the five pillars of career resilience and some ai prompts that can help you work through overwhelm financial planning and navigating a lay have you subscribed to the truth flies and work podcast podcasts yet if you haven't now's a good time to do that because part two of our discussion with allen lia elliott happens next week where we'll flip the script and talk about what it's like to be an individual contributor on a large team how can you stand out farewell listeners tune in next time as the journey continues i'm john white at b dream for macquarie patent network nerd underscore signing off how do you that was john white and nick cor from nerd journey podcast for part two of this conversation yes there is more and more than three hundred more episodes go and find nerd journey wherever you get your yeah thank you so much guys they are such good interviews and i tell you what is really cool on they are both intervene from remotely and there's two interviews which we've done this once or twice before and is really really difficult and they're just they just know who's gonna say what and i suppose i after three and forty odd episode you do you do know that but they are really professional really nice guys if you if you are invited on their podcast which i hope you are then yeah it's gonna be really nice time this it is a long record it was about an hour and a half two hours isn't it it was about two hours yet and but i enjoyed that because it allowed for full conversation they edit them such a brilliant way that yeah just just so much god i'm particularly in these times layoffs tech under pressure navigating navigating career changes and transitions is really tough they've got so many episodes and gas and experts and resources do go and check out their podcast also their website where they keep all the good stuff like the resources and and things like that i'll leave links to both of those in the share and thank you so much again to john and nick we love you guys and love coming on your show and love nerd jenny so join us thursday where joel z shows us how to have more fun at work without losing productivity i really pushed back on this with joel because i'm like no i don't believe you and he's like shut up pal it's true i've worked i've worked with a american express who do the hell you work with and i was like yeah i'll just why mate why my neck thank you care everyone here that beef for cheers on tuesday

picture this for a moment you're at the kettle making a coffee when day from accounts walks up and says so how how's your love life going or maybe kendra the you intern somebody blur out you're not like you've lost weight you got any health issues sounds really awkward right well according to new research these uncomfortable small talk moments aren't just cringe worthy they're actually making your employees ill our guest today john michael was studying fun workplace conversations when his research students stumbled across something surprising in the data a large percentage of participant mentioned uncomfortable small talk even though nobody had even asked them about it my colleagues and i were doing some research on coworker socializing and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work outside of work in between tasks things like that and i had the undergraduate assistant at the time and she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up and it wasn't it wasn't once or twice it was like fifty to eighty instances john has done extensive research john small talk and he's discovered that awkward small talk doesn't just make people feel uncomfortable actually leads to emotional exhaustion the precursor to burnout out and before you think this is just an introvert problem it's not today we're diving into the hidden science of workplace chatter why bad small talk can literally drain your team's energy and the surprising difference between small talk that builds connection and small talk that destroys it this is gonna change how do you think about every casual conversation at work from now on hello and welcome to truth lies and work the award winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture we are brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is leanne i'm a chartered occupational psychologist my name is ali business owner and we are here to help you simplify the science of war so today we are asking when does friendly workplace chat become a well being killer we think small talk is harmless right just the way we build a rapport with colleagues but what if we've been getting it completely wrong our is john michael who's the associate professor at lo university of maryland he studies something most of us take for granted those casual conversations that happened between meetings at a machine or in the left his research reveals as a dark side to work workplace small talk that's hiding and plain sight and if you're a leader thinking well i'll just bum small talk then hold on john's research also shows that the right kind of casual conversation actually boosts performance and reduces turnover and the trick is knowing the difference so after this very quick break we're gonna meet john properly and discover what small talk really is why it can be exhausting and whether you need to be an extra to survive it don't go anyway you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems sound familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and their fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new setups ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how buck can help you grow better so i am john michael i am an associate professor and the bush scholar at lo university maryland in the united states i conduct research in the areas of fun at work coworker or socializing and social interactions and employee retention and performance my colleagues and i were doing some research on coworker or socializing and we are trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work outside of work in between tasks things like that and i have had a grad an undergraduate assistant at the time there's no phd student studying elsewhere and she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about these instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up and it wasn't you know it wasn't once or twice it was like fifty to eighty instances of people mentioning this and they weren't being asked about about uncomfortable conversations at all they were being asked about like what are the types of things you talk about where do you talk about it who you talk about it with you know and it really geared toward more fun conversations and and playful conversations things that got people excited to be at work and kind of improve the experience of work and what she really found was that you know a lot of people were getting engaged in these conversations that made them feel a little uneasy and uncomfortable we think small talk is the the way that we get to know people the way we start to build that rapport with our with our colleagues and it seems like such a small thing things so what's the big question behind small talk so i think if small talk has often been assumed to be this kind of very basic and you know easy going conversation between people at work conversations about the weather or or sports or common interest but actually people engage in different levels of small talk so there is small talk that is just kind of common thought and then there's small talk to go much deeper so you oftentimes people especially as they build relationships we'll start talking about relationships that they're in or they'll talk about challenges that they're having or they'll talk about you know whether they wanna stay at the organization for at long period time or if they have plans to move on right so they'll they'll they're still not getting into real deep conversation but they're going into more personal avenues of of conversation and this is where these uncomfortable instances a small talk come up right so this is where people might try to engage you in a conversation about how your romantic relationships are going or how is your health and have you experienced any health challenges what types of family issues are you having are you experiencing a lot work life balance issues who are you in conflict with in the organization why are you in conflict with them you know so those types of of conversations come up in just passing in kind of short instances of of of of small talk throughout the day but they oftentimes can kind of en on people's personal selves and become uncomfortable so is it a case then that it's this small talk that is uncomfortable typically falls out side of the realm of work although i know you give a few examples there actually within work is it what what's the driver there is it that it's inappropriate conversation is that they don't have this base of a relationship with this person is it perceived for somebody being noisy because again it feels like i this is just how we start to build authentic relationships isn't it that's right and so there's kinda different category so in some instances there's things where people just don't feel comfortable so if you and i are talking about our favorite sports team and the third person doesn't know anything about sports or is not interest in sports they may feel uncomfortable just because they're not part of the conversation so they feel kind of like an out cast or not really os sides but not part of the ina invert right there's those forms of of of uncomfortable conversation there's also things that bleeding to your personal interest or your personal lives that people just aren't comfortable talking about with their coworkers and so and those are some of the examples they gave before so you know asking about romantic chip to asking about personal issues that people just don't feel comfortable talking about then there's other instances of small talk where people don't feel comfortable talking about them at work but they they're okay if they're in a social setting so say coworkers go out together afterwards for happy hour they're fine talking about it outside of the con finds of work almost like i i don't feel comfortable talking about it in this professional space because i'm supposed to be a professional and supposed to be task focused but i'm okay once we leave kind of the con finds of the professional world so there's these different grouping that we're finding of of small talk it's not it's not kind of that all conversations that are personal are always uncomfortable but you know some topics are kind of always out of off pays some some topics are okay as long as you're not in the of the workplace and some some conversations are always okay so it it really just kinda depend it's not there's no one size fits all everybody doesn't experience the uncomfortable ability the same and and for the same reasons but you know if you're talking about the weather or you know the the the company picnic that just happened people are a problem everybody's probably okay with that but when you start getting into things that people won't care about or they don't feel comfortable bringing into work or it exposes some sort of limitation or some sort of area that they're not confident or we're capable in that might make them feel uncomfortable well led to believe that people you're were introverted typically in these social situations would would find it draining in terms of energy have is there anything chance to say that introverts might want to engage in small talk glass or they find it more uncomfortable or is it more about as you said the context no so the so there's not a lot out there in the organizational literature we are starting to look at that now so we're looking at a number of boundary conditions or moderators currently we're actually conducting the research right now things like intra version ex version neuro so people who just get stressed easily they may not want to talk about personal issues because it may either expose a weakness of theirs or it may just make them feel like they're under time pressure we're also looking at other personal traits like social anxiety some people are just get anxious in social situations so it's not just that they're an introvert but they're actually like anxious talking to other people especially about something that is not task related something that's not work related and then another another personalized looking is the need to belong so some people have a a great need to belong and they may be much more willing to engage in small talk even if it becomes personal because they've got this great need to connect right so we're starting to look at that now but that has really been under examined in the literature thus far and in terms of that that could what i i'm really interesting about the paper that you shared with me was that how you'd found a link between this awkward small talk and emotional exhaustion so can you maybe stop helping i'll listened and understand what emotional exhaustion is in this context yeah so emotional exhaustion is kind of the precursor to burnout so burnout is when you become so tact so stressed and your body because you haven't cope emotionally or or physically your body kinda giving out so we've all experienced burnout if we've studied for too long if we worked for too long and we start to feel sick or we start to get a headache or we start to get really exhausted right that's kind of the the burnout emotional exhaustion is where we start to feel emotionally run down sometimes when people are highly emotionally exhausted they may burst into tears for no explanation or they may get they may lash out you know with anger for no explanation because they're just so emotionally tapped so that's kinda like the the first sign of burnout so it's it's an important indicator of well being if people are experiencing a lot of emotional exhaustion their well being is lower so they're they're not experiencing a lot of potential life satisfaction flourishing thriving in the workplace and that's an important indicator because that's going to explain how much people are able to bring to the job are they able to bring their their full selves to work and are they able to you know bill able to to focus their full energy in the task that they're supposed to focus on so what we found using social exclusion theory is that engaging in these forms of uncomfortable small talk makes people feel lonely or you know os sized or you know or or isolated so they start to feel like well i'm not part of the in group i i i feel like i'm kind of on an island here if you will and that starts to re so that reduces the number of resources that they're getting or the the amount of resources they're getting from their their social support network right and then when they start to feel stressed they can't rely on those other people to help bring that stress down right so that one way that people often cope is through their social support i'm stressed i'm gonna take a break and i'm gonna go talk to lia about something fun or we'll we'll go for a walk and get some exercise together and just have a conversation about life right so that that's something i might do if i start to feel like i'm excluded or i start to feel like i'm lonely or os sized at all right then i don't have those people to go to i don't have that network to draw on in order to protect me against the stress that i'm experiencing which makes me more likely to experience emotional exhaustion so that was that finding that that that you know we identified in that first study was just that people do experience more emotional exhaustion when they experience more uncomfortable forms of small talk at work clear i can imagine this business leaders and aaron his listening going well how do i approach this then because if i if i've got the awkward small talk that's gonna mean that people are emotionally exhausted and then feel isolated how do i know what small talk is is good for building relationships in which isn't do i just ban small talk we just talk about work where does it leave them yeah i think it's important to create an environment where people feel included right so an environment of includes the miserable belonging where people feel like they're part of something that they aisle all identify with so they they have this kind of we spirit and they feel like they're they're kind of altogether and then you know just i think having a reminder that you know keep the small talk professional right so make sure that it's okay to go you know to to talk about things that are not task related but don't talk about things that made make people you know may kind of bro into people's personal lives or may may be uncomfortable to talk about because it could expose a weakness or it could bring up something that you know that that is hurtful to the person so for example if somebody's experiencing financial debt where if somebody is going through a divorce if you bring up topics like that it's gonna not only push the person away but it's also going to start to make them feel like they're not part of the group that people if you know they're willing to talk about that with me they clearly don't care about how i feel about the situation right so i if if if i were a leader and i was looking at this it it would be like first we need to create an environment of belonging this where we all feel like we're we're a team or we're a we're a a a set of people who who have a similar identity to the workplace and then keep it fun but professional right so make it light hearted but not overly personal or not overly sensitive right so so kinda keep it can you know talk about the weather talk about sports talk about things that are going on the company to talk about vacation plans and in similar you know you know find common interest talk about games that people like to play there's many things that that you could engage people in conversation about that aren't gonna get into personal issues such as health you know like if you say like oh you know this person has lost a lot of weight or gained a lot of weight when you start asking about health questions that's gonna make them feel uncomfortable one because they're getting into a personal thing that they all wanna talk about but it's also going to expose weakness like could this person be a liability to the company so if you engage people in conversation like that it's going to push them away because they're gonna go to in into a protective mode where they feel like they need to you know either not answer or give a you know give kind of a very careful answer in order to protect their own image at the company so it's really about making sure that conversations are fun but not overly en encroaching on people's personal space we know from the organizational psychology literature that it's really important that you hire for fit and you hire people who fit the values and personality of the company and and who really will will that'll only get along with what the company is trying to accomplish but with the people within the company you know the people make the place and that's very true and then once you have created that it's important that you you create this sense of belonging it's not belonging this kinda goes a step further than psychological safety psychological safety is as you know is is all about being able to speak freely being able to make mistakes without the threat of punishment or being made fun of belonging is is that is you know a sense of psychological safety but also knowing that people have your back and that people are looking out for your best interest and that we're all in it together and that people see me as an important valued contributor to the organization so that's really what organizations want to focus on so a lot of you know my research and a lot of research in this area focuses on how do you build strong interpersonal connections at work right so how do you build not necessarily friendships but trusting caring nurturing relationships where people can be honest with each other where people can be fair to one another where people are you know showing carrying concern to one another in a way to try to build stronger social exchange relationships with with their colleagues that's really what we're looking to do in organizations if you wanna create a sense of belonging right and that will fulfill their need for relationship and their need for belonging this which are two of the central human needs that that people look for you mentioned it was one of your was it your phd student who first start to look at the data and notice this he's passing when he started to dive into and research it more was there a result that really surprised you and i think the first surprise was just so it might my student was emily thinks she was an undergrad student time now working on her phd i in in biotechnology but she stumbled on it and i i just was shocked at because we were asking like what do you talk about your coworker what do you talk about with your coworkers for funds you know what what do you do to you know make the work environment more fun and engaging and know what are some things that you know come up in conversation that's when we kinda stumble on this i was mostly surprised just how often it happens not not so much by what people were thrown off by it made sense to me right it makes it makes sense that people don't wanna talk about overly personal issues or non task related issues especially if the organization highly competitive or if the organization's is highly structured right you don't wanna kinda get off task because you'd be seen as you know slack off or or not doing your job so it's not that wasn't so surprising to me but just the fact that it was coming up like people are feeling free to just bring up whatever they felt in group others at work now if you look at another thing that we're starting to look at is like if you look at friendship groups once you and i are close friends what i can ask you or what you're willing to share with me is much broader right you you will once we're friends even if we're we're coworker or friends right so not just coworkers but actual friends and we're talking especially outside of work you may talk to me about your relationship you may talk to me about you know your you know your financial issues or the fact that you're looking for a new job at another company right but you're and until we're friends you're not going to have that same level of bond with me or trust with me where you feel that you can bring those up in a way that it's not going to potentially hurt your professional image right so people are most people are savvy enough to think that i need to protect my professional image because i need this job at least now until i choose not to have this job right and they could feel that if i harm my professional image i may be a threat of losing my job and that's really what's going on when people when we were reading that because the data was all qualitative that we started with and you know people just talked about you know like we were talking about the weather you know and and sports or whatever some people that the i just didn't feel i don't feel interested in sports i i wasn't into that conversation but i would have been happy to talk about movies some people talk like that other people said i was surprised that this person started asking me questions about my love life or you know or are my kids like what what what are my kids names how old are they like there's like sometimes people don't mind saying like my kid won a big tournament this weekend and in soccer but they don't wanna get into really specific information about their kids and so things like that came up so it was kind of a vast array of of of issues that came up through the data but it was it was interesting that until people really build that trust they don't really wanna get into many personal issues they wanna keep it much more surface level and i think especially that's important to that that's important to build within the culture right they every but because it's really when when i come into the company i'm gonna be guarded and i'm gonna be careful when i say so i'm really looking to i'm i'm building my socialization by looking at the people around me what kinds of things are they talking about are they joking around a are they goof awful a lot because that they're goof off a lot and they're the the boss is rewarding them for that that may signal to me that that's what i should be doing you know if they're joking around and poking fun at each other and the boss is part of it that tells me something right but if people are more guarded or more careful that also signals to me how should i behave in the organization right so organizational culture is all about if i don't have an idea of what i'm supposed to do the culture will kinda signal to me how i should be behaving right and so it's really important i think mostly that the people already in the organization are careful or are behaving in a way that is in line with what the organization wants maybe the organization wants deeper conversations more personal relationships you know and if if that's the case and the organization operates like that then that's what that's the kind of people they'd wanna hire they'd probably wanna be upfront about that and that's the kind of culture they'd wanna build but if they if they really wanna focus on being more professional they may wanna create a culture where it's obvious that when i'm at work i'm supposed to be working a little bit of funds okay but work is work and when i'm outside of work i can let my hair down a bit so it's really important that the the stage set for the new employees so that they know how to act i wouldn't put too much onus on the new employees to to try to determine themselves how i should act in this it's really the organization's responsibility to signal that to the employees so they know how to how to engage with their coworkers and with the organization so now you know more about small talk the ninety nine percent of people in the world thanks to john after this really short break we're gonna get a little bit more practical and ask how we can build a culture that encourages small talk and just the right amount of fun we're also gonna find out what happens when employers try to force fun in the workplace hint not good things see in a second hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like it it is of course brought to you by the hopes spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and there's end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human success from the perspective of a millennial or something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love phil love phil a fellow millennial he's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley also has the best name to be said in the extract voice ash barbara ton welcome back let's rejoin lia sheen john navigate the tricky path of trying to make work fun without excluding anyone how can organizations can of use the insights of this research and and everything else that we know about ko to build a fun culture that is also effective not excluding anyone the things we can do to support that yeah there there are but fun is like small talk it's kinda got similar similar similar so a lot of my research has been in the area of fun at work and the issue with fun is that there's kinda two areas so there's kind of this very managed or or or you know can fun that's imposed on people so we've got a fun culture here and we're gonna have fun fridays and fun fridays are gonna play games and you're gonna we're gonna go to happy hour we're gonna do all these things right versus more organic forms of fun which is where socializing tends to fall right so you and i go out for a walk or go for lunch or joke around in our cubicle because we're more friendly with each other and that's okay the boss has given us autonomy in this fun culture to allow us to do that that tends to be more effective and more enjoyable for people more fun for people than the more managed fund where we say we're gonna have this celebration this day in this way right when people feel over prescribed and less autonomous even if you're trying to build a sense of belonging this they're gonna feel like it's being forced upon them as opposed to something they're choosing to do and that's really something that that organizations need to be careful with something that we've my colleague michael two's and i have focused on in over the years is this idea of manager support for fun so managers need to be supportive of fund and they do that in various ways one way is they provide resources and time and permission to have fun right they also model the behavior that they want so what level of fun am i expecting how am i wanting people about fun and a supportive manager would also try to get information from people within the organization with the employees what types of fund do you wanna have what would you find fund versus not that's what a supportive manager would do otherwise you're forcing things that you may find fun but others don't right and then they become overly cynical to it and then they start to try to avoid those days or they try to avoid those activities at all costs people are often you know misconception by the fact that your fund tends to happen in between tasks so in between the boundaries of work it's not it tends to not en approach on your task now sometimes the manager might come in and say land it's time out fun put down your work that you're focused on and let's go out offline and that's just gonna frustrate you because you're in the middle of getting something accomplished but if you and i choose to have fun we had choose to goof off or joke around or have a conversation we likely would do that before a meeting after a meeting you know after we've completed a big task right maybe a friday afternoon after a big project has just been completed you know a bunch of people got for happier and dinner right so people will choose to do it they tend to do it you know in between task or outside of task you don't find because that's always been one of the the the things that we've heard from from people and organizations is isn't this going to just reduce productivity and it it really doesn't we have found in our research that productivity you know fund kent really positively the productivity know does relate to performance but it if it's if it's fun all the time clearly task can't get accomplished but if if people are having fun in between work or in between stressful situations to manage the emotional labor that they're experiencing yeah that's a great way to have fun because much of fun is about distressing it's about building relationship it's about building up those resources that you can use when you become stressed right so a lot of the emotional literature talks about building up resources so that when you become stressed or burned out you can lean on those resources to help d stress right so they become ways to overcome stressful situations and so it's important to kind of build those up over time in one way that you you find that people do this in the organizations by having fun with each other joking around with each other goof off together right socializing it's just really important that it doesn't go too far one thing that the humor literature has found for example is that humor can go too far and like small talk can make people feel uncomfortable or can it can almost become a form of bullying so even with humor it's important that there's some ground rules that people follow are there certain ground rules that you'd recommend when it comes mister humor or it staying kinda of with small talk is you know keep it clean keep it you know keep it in non offensive non personal i mean i i think a lot of times is like if it becomes overly personal and you're not really close with the person that's when it becomes an issue right if you're making fun of the person you because of a trait they have of course it's we know it's a problem if you're making fun of a situation or the way the boss lashed out at somebody or you know said something in a meeting it's probably not gonna cause too much issue right so but if it becomes overly personal and it's pointed at the person the the jokes pointed at the person at a a person about some trait they have that's gonna be an issue so it's really about kinda keeping it non personal hearted you know enjoyable for all that are around or if you're gonna be engaging in humor that includes aspects of gossip you might wanna take it outside of work like do that when you're on at lunch or when you're on at happy hour probably not a great idea that will get around eventually but it that does happen so the more professional of the less personal whether it'd be small talk or humor can be the better that tends to be better for for all parties and i'm i'm surprised that this is also where this these levels of emotional intelligence and self awareness in imagine this is so important to almost kind of constantly that environment and pick up the keys when it's it's gone a bit too far or it's not it's disrupting work because you're right if if somebody came in and said yeah it goes time timed to our phone and i was i was in a state of flow be furious there is it as much on the manager needs to be very very aware mindful of of the environment yeah the the i mean the managers need to be they they need to be aware of what's going on in their organization and a highly supportive manager is going to do this right so a highly supportive manager is going to ensure that they're in touch with what the needs of their employees are what the desire of their employees are and where the you know where employees might be experiencing stress or or or you know need additional assistance so it's that that's a that's an important aspect of leadership that that you know the leader need be mindful of if if you look at a lot of the leadership literature especially as it compares like cast to relational behaviors most of that literature finds that from the employee's perspective what they're looking for is the relational manager the supportive manager the develop developmental manager right it's the manager's boss who's looking for those real task indications so not that the employees don't care about task accomplishment or task guidance but what they're looking for is is the manager supporting me looking out for my welfare looking out for opportunities for me helping me develop that's really what employees are looking for so managers need to be mindful of that and they need to ensure that they're providing signals to employees or they're creating an environment where people feel supported and they feel like they've got autonomy to focus on work so say no to the fun experience or to engage in fund when they're feeling a bit stressed and not feel like they're they're under any pressure to stand on task so it's it that's an important thing for managers do and i think more and more managers are learning the importance of being supportive but not all are you know many just kinda crack the weapon and expect you to to d on all the time so clearly there's a balance here between building connection and going too far but here's when it gets really quite interesting john's current research is looking at the dark side of workplace fun because here's the thing we've been told that fun at work is always good right google slides ping pong tables free food everywhere but what happens when fun becomes a bit forced what happens when employers try too hard to manufacture the joy john's got some great insights about why copying google's playbook might be the worst thing you can do for your company culture it turns out that when fun becomes mandatory it backfire spectacularly and actually this connects directly back to our small to problem because when organizations try to force connection whether that's through mandatory phone or pushing people into personal conversations before they're ready they create the exact opposite of what they're trying to achieve so here's john again explaining why authentic connection beats artificial fun every single time right now we are in the process of doing some work where we're looking at the relationship between fun and more destructive behaviors if you not all destructive but more counterproductive type behavior so physical and psychological withdrawal individual bb behavior so like making fun of people gossip about people talking poorly about people burnout out so like the actual experience of burnout not just emotional exhaustion so we're in the process of of looking at that right now and the way we're looking at that is like what are some of the ways in which fund could potentially deplete your resources so we know that it it adds to your resources right we know that it helps you build relationships feel less stress but how can it add to your stress and some of the ways it likely does that are through creating time pressures or you know creating work like imbalances right like because worrying we had fun today i've gotta stay lay at work and get my test and so i can't get home to my family or to my other responsibilities so we're starting to look at that right now our prior research i there wasn't that many surprise surprises we've seen so far a lot of it has been focused on coworker or socializing and manager support as they relate to things like job performance and employee turnover and and a lot of fun operates through this idea of relational attachment where fun promotes relationships and those relationships make us more likely to stay we've we've done a number of studies looking at turnover at three months six months a year and eighteen months and and we found that fund help to increase employee retention and even performance both task performance and organizational citizenship behaviors especially helping behaviors so and it happens a lot through that relationship building and how committed are you towards your fellow coworkers what kinds of relationships are you developing so that's really where fun happens but the unanswered question from our research has been these kind of more destructive or or counterproductive type behavior so that's the area we're going to now and i don't know yet i don't know what the data will will show a their employee employer sorry business owner's his leaders chasing the wrong thing is it right to chase fun or should we actually be chasing that authentic connection where then those those more organic pockets of fun more just happen it's fund the wrong focus hey it's i think it's really more don't force fun don't don't say we are going to create a fun environment right it's more like we're gonna create an environment where people like you said can bring their true selves in where people can build connection where people can goof off a bet but where we're getting real work done i mean if you think about kind of the the the most common example would be google i don't think the the the founders of google were set out to create a fun workplace but they just thought if we weren't really innovative creative people we need to create a space where they can be innovative and creative and we wanna get the best and brightest so we need to create a differentiated environment where people are gonna wanna come and oh by the way with all of these benefits it actually forces people stay at work longer so they're actually getting more out of their employees than than otherwise they otherwise would have so but i don't think they ever intended to create a fun environment per s and i think the the the the problem was is that after google became the the poster company for this you know for these positive working bars everybody tried to create google but they only tried to do it by ink one or two things so let's have free food and then free food didn't really change anything because that was just one little piece of what google was doing right and it that wasn't if the people weren't work out because of free food or because they have a slide or because they had bean bank traders it was kind of this whole concept right this whole entire culture that was built and so i organizations need to be much more thoughtful of what are we trained to create i would really start at are we trying to be a more cooperative or competitive environment in finance competitiveness is good right competitiveness helps financial institutions do what they do but in more high tech or more innovative research research and design it may be more cooperation how do we come together and collaborate and work as teammates and that would those two environments would have very different cultures right and then it's really an idea of regardless of what type of environment we've created how do we go about making people feel like day belong in that environment they fit in that environment and we want them there we value their contributions right so so organizations i i think they need to stop just taking these off the shelf solutions and saying fun seems to work let's do fun and think about what are we trying to create here if we wanna create an environment where you know where we want people to connect and we want people to distress and maybe funds the right thing may you know maybe is for some environments it could be the organized fund activities you know if through like as a team building activity maybe through other companies it's more just like giving people autonomy to socialize and goof off together it's interesting because we michael tu and i originally identified this this kind of area by thinking about google but we were working with a large restaurant training in the united states who was experiencing high levels of turnover and we had been working with them trying to find ways to reduce turnover and when we started ins executing some fun by activities and they were small like up upsell drink competitions or who could roll silverware the fastest after a shift and bosses would walk around as spot bonuses for who could do that they'd make it a competition make it kind of fun they would have you know you know theme days where people would would you know they they would provide different uniforms and people would come in with those uniforms and make it more fun so they did these little tiny tiny experiments around fun and it just worked you know retention went up in a an industry where you know turnover like sixty seventy percent and we were able to help them bring it down fairly significantly right so they brought turnover down by a a significant amount it wasn't a small number it was like over ten percent in some stores over twenty percent so like they it fun worked now in that environment you've got a lot of young people you've got probably a lot of people in high school college you've got you know people who are not making this their full time career right because this was a fast casual restaurant so maybe in that environment fun is the right approach but if i were working with bank to an executive banking i i certainly would not you know suggest that they do you know all the you while the wacky think like like zappos did like having parades around the office and decorating your cubicle goals in wild ways and letting people wear whatever they wanted to work and talk to customers however they wanted i wouldn't suggest that right for a shoe company that's great for a financial institution maybe just giving people more down maybe giving people you know couple fridays off a month we're letting people you know you know starting sports teams that people can play that are company you know sponsored so there there's different ways to do it and i think the the problem you find is that companies will find something that works and they'll just kinda assume that it works the same for all organizations and it just doesn't you have to think about your people your strategy what you're trying to accomplish how you're trying to accomplish with what kind of money do you have to spend on it what your managers are going to how they're gonna react and how they're gonna support it so there it there there needs to be a lot of thought unfortunately and put into this if it's going to work effectively given that a lot of our research is focused on this connection or this you know this belonging idea this idea of socializing start there i mean it's easy to allow people to to to engage in chi chat or conversations or go out for lunch together bring pizza in for your people so people love free food you bring a few pizzas in or whatever whatever your favorite food and you you let people con you know congregate together and share food they love it they they find it to be fun they they they'll be highly engaged in and they'll engage in conversation is non work related often especially if they're altogether you can do little things like that to start it it doesn't have to be this big plan that's really expensive it can be pretty small and really it's those organic types of fun that people care most about anyway and that's where the socializing comes in or the small talk or the the sharing you know bearing pine together it really what it comes down to even the most competitive environments could do that that was john michael and you now know a lot about small talk just to recap here are the top three lessons for leaders lesson number one create psychological safety first belonging second don't jump straight into personal conversations your team needs to feel safe before they'll open up and that does mean keeping small talk professional until genuine relationships develop gradually lesson than two support organic fund but don't manufacture it stop trying to be google with sort of mandatory fund fridays and those in house chefs instead give your people autonomy to connect naturally provide time space and permission for genuine socializing to happen lesson three watch for the warning signs if your team is experiencing uncomfortable small talk regularly it's a red flag for exhaustion and potential burnout so train your managers to recognize when casual conversation is actually isolating people rather than connecting them if you wanna find out more about john michael and his work then go to john w michael that spelled m i c h e l dot wordpress dot com links from the show notes it's also it's from on linkedin that is all for today we are back on tuesday with another summer session of the podcast that's the episodes where we sit on our terrace drink wine and chat about the more fun aspects of work and we'd love you to join us this is straight and work we'll see you next week

hello and welcome to treat lies and work the award podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture we are brought to you by the hopes hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is leanne i'm a charge occupational psychologist my name is a i'm a business owner and together we usually help you some further sites of work but as it's summer we're doing things a little bit differently yeah if you listen to the last few episodes you'll know that we tend to do them on our terrace with perhaps an adult beverage and much more relaxed and we try not to talk about stuff which makes you think too hard so just a bit more silly i mean we're never really the most serious podcast are we no but if you're listening to this lying on a sun lounge and the glorious bulgarian sunshine then one high look us they're very near yeah we're in bulgaria but also yeah i'm i'm one hand do you really wanna be listening to a podcast on your holidays on the other hand i'm sure you've actually specifically tuned in because you know that this is the podcast you do wanna listen to yes when you're on your holidays and those of you who are astute enough to realize perhaps old enough to realize that the thin dream was slightly different today because this is the it is thirty years ago aol choose something called dial up internet kids won't know this but you'd be like mom get off the phone on the internet that used to we used to happen and that was what used to hear whenever you dialed up so it went away this week so they closed it down and so there's no more dialogue up in the us i'm not sure it's dumps it was it may still be in the uk when other places but not not in the us i don't know but i will miss that don wait welcome to aol and i remember email the internet we had was aol so we thought as it's making us feel a little bit old yep we'll run with it so i came across a sub called ask old people and some of the questions are brilliant so i've picked some at random a gonna an alain i can announce answer them after his very short break we'll he in second you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems sound familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and that experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new sign ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better okay so if you are maybe our age we're in our forties yeah leanne forty and forty seven yeah forty seven and we don't think we don't feel particularly old no equally we're very aware to our gen z workforce colleagues we're really freaking ancient with dinosaurs i think as well because of the age we are we do remember but probably more than than younger millennials i'm still classes of millennial but more so than than younger millennials i remember what life was like pre computers pre internet mh and because that i do feel a bit old yeah exactly i went to you i've graduated school in nineteen ninety three which is before most before most in fact before any jen ed was born yeah yeah a long time before so yeah so we have so we thought we'd just go through and was it a subreddit you found so reddit called ask old people that met some brilliant ones on there i've tried to pick the ones that are somewhat work related or just interesting maybe more yeah reflections on life and some are just a bit silly so i've got nineteen ally i've numbered them one to nineteen do you wanna pick a number yep we will choose number eleven number eleven you know you're not allowed in bingo to say the say legs eleven and you know that that kind of thing anymore that's what these did bingo alright anyway sorry carry number eleven what something a young person can do to instantly earn your respect oh i know exactly what it is if they ask an interesting question and show up and listen to it listen to the answer i think the there's so many the problem the problem with young people leave players is a but i think that a lot of people because they've grown up i've got access to all of the information they don't really value information and i think there's a huge difference between information as stuff that chat gb boutique can give you in wisdom which is someone who has actually yeah who's actually lived it and usually messed it up so yeah that's that's mine what have you got one i was everything is similar like curiosity genuine curiosity and yeah ask yeah exactly that asking questions and actually wanting to to hear the answer and i think that as well particularly as you get older you want to still feel relevant so particularly to a younger person ask your question they genuinely want the answer to and do you know what people in general i respect people who are curious and also i think if you if you are genuinely asking don't do this don't pretend to be curious because we'll feel see through that we're twice your age sonny we we've will safely through that but if someone does ask a question and they're genuinely curious then one that makes us feel good that we are still relevant but two it also shows that they're interested in learning about the i about the wisdom behind me about how things have evolved because like we say with chat gp now i feel like you almost get diet coke information from chat gp and you don't really get the whole like okay well this is the answer but this is why the answer is the answer and i think that someone who asks that a lot of people say that the future is like history just repeats itself or whatever and so that's why a lot of historians are very good business people because they've understood that there's really only like six motivating of factors in the world or six things that can happen but anyway i'm i'm doing an old person waffle you given me those is carry on no i think i think i think that's a nice a nice summary curiosity essentially absolutely so do we pick another number yeah six generations in the workplace i've deleted the the actual question you've deleted today i did there was another little of things out i think it was something like what do you wish younger generations knew about older generations in the workplace oh that's kind someone to the last one but i maybe this is just one i was like obvious things but i wish that wish that people knew that it was really freaking difficult to get information and data back in the day there used to be a couple like there'll be whole departments whose whose idea what those whose job was just to put together a spreadsheets and put together reports of people and and often you wouldn't have a clue what's going on you know dashboards there's there's only a rather new thing in dashboards so i kinda wish them people knew that it was really pretty hard to make a decision back in the day and a lot of it had to be on gut instinct and also probably a lots of lots of meetings but that's a bit of a wish wishy washy answer so if you got better one i think it'd be for any young person who's feeling a bit overwhelmed or unsure is i promise you the vast majority of us have no freaking idea what we're doing yes no idea what we're doing we might have a slightly better idea than you do because you got twenty years more experience but we really we really don't don't have that much more of an idea and also what i really i think that i was i was i did fall into the trap of in my earlier career particularly as a woman perhaps when i was a kind of starting my career which would have been in the in the northeast is i had this idea that or people take me seriously when i'm older they just not take me seriously now and i'm young and i think that is one i can promise you people do not take more seriously when you're older they still find ways to to not take you seriously so they don't want to but i think it can feed into your sense of as a confidence in your ability and in what you can bring so i think it would be to know that as a young person you have so much value to bring to all workplace situations and ignore all the noise around gen at young millennials and slack off and blah blah blah we all have a lot more in common than than you think yeah and the and the reason why was older people look like we might have got got it together is because we've had twenty years more time to make the same mistakes you're about to yeah and so it's not a question it was knowing more it's a question it was having tried a lot of other things and they're not worked out yeah do you wanna pick a number then i go with number thirteen i'm looking what's something that happened much more quickly in old age than you were prepared for but becoming irrelevant yeah i didn't i doubt not sure at what point it seemed to happen overnight that i went from being like fairly cool thing on the pulse to know what's going on to nav is entire generation he just thinks i'm cringe like when did that happen sorry you asking me yeah you i think you're still cool but then i'm old so yeah my mine is switching cost mine is when you know when you're doing a task or you're doing something and then someone comes along and it says oh can you just grab me that thing and you go and you find it on your hard drive you find it wherever and then you go off and you give it back to them and you get back and you go hanging it how was i doing and i find it's so especially if you doing something which is relatively complex where you have to hold lots of things in your head like class examples when we put in together our thursday episodes when i'm doing that episode i have to hold all of the all of everything the interview said in my head so that we i know that when we interrupt them back in the studio it all fits in together it's boring boring boring but that is something where if i get interrupted then i just lose it and i have to go back till like almost a square one and just to go okay i'll read through the interview again switching cost maybe it's just me but it's massively massively is a big problem for me yeah no i think it is i think just your general energy levels if you get older and i'm not sure whether it's because you've got more aspects of life that require your energy whether it be in terms of your finances or things that going on with family or yeah a general life admin takes up more room than i expected it to when i was young i'm probably realize how little life admin i had mh in my early twenties so i think yeah we're just generally speaking our attention is more split across different areas to find that focus time and work and also i think as well there's much there's a lot more distractions work wise than they used to be like when i started work i didn't have a mobile phone for work i only had a computer in the office so if for example i was thinking a work problem through at home as she tend to there was no other real distractions it was like your phone was going off or you just had that deep literal space away from work to think something through whereas now as well you got slack pinging every five minutes and emails pinging all the time and yeah there's lots of things to steal your attention away yeah and i think the they call it asynchronous communication is it mh i can't remember what what what does that mean is that is that the one where it's slack yeah yeah so asynchronous communication it's like both both the quest blessing and a curse because it means great you could in theory just ignore everyone for for eight hours at the end the end of the day go and answer your messages but then you're gonna probably find someone who's who sent you sixteen messages going wear the hell are and then they're gonna call you and then went to call you if they're millennial or gen out but then they're going to come find you so yeah it's yeah it kind of was a simpler time it was it was speaking of which there was a question it was similar actually let me find it when we're on the subject yes number in nineteen were people more relaxed before the two thousands their follow was i've heard before that people used to be more relaxed back in the days before the two thousands is that true i'm not sure people were more relaxed necessarily but i think they had clearer boundaries of what was work time and what was relaxation time think about my dad you know my dad had fairly kind of high high pressure job that would require him to be on call and things like that i was electrical engineer high voltage subs stations were his were his world so you know if there was a weather event then he would be on call and have to go in to make sure that you know manchester still had electricity but that was rare and it was literally like what what you call it like an active god isn't it like a freak weather event whereas when we were on holiday he didn't have a mobile phone he didn't have a laptop but there was no way of anyone from the office contacting him unless they wanted to actually phone the hotel he was staying in or send something via a mail which people just wouldn't no he wouldn't be so for him i think he he had a very high stress job but had very clear times where would be work isn't even accessible to me right now i can't even check that email if i wanted to so i think maybe people maybe had a bit more balance a bit more the rest and recovery time is more effective perhaps yeah so during those times that people probably were a bit more relaxed yes and also to a certain extent you you were you were limited by capacity because my dad used to bring home paperwork and he had like you know and a nineteen eighties old school briefcase we've meant that you are literally limited to the amount of stuff you can bring home whereas if you are at home then you you and you're working you likely have got everything on dropbox onedrive whatever it's gonna be you got access to everything so in theory sources can you do this thing for me you can't go well i've not bought it home with me because it's gonna be in the cloud and you'd be able to access it so it was almost like a capacity thing and i think there was there was a double thing because i think my dad was very stressed and i remember him working saturdays and and the dining room table and late into the evening probably same as azure dad so maybe maybe they weren't quite as relaxed it was maybe the problem might be that it took longer to do anything because you were doing things in trip remember my dad having these like these what you call them carbon like copy things yeah yeah so young kids if you're wondering what cc stands for an email it stands for carbon copy and they used a carbon copy someone lindsay just usually used to literally write a memo on on a one piece of paper would go through a carbon copy into two others and then one would go to the person and then once someone else was to go look to a the secretary or admin the assistant and then one would go into the file or something so anyway blast from passed sorry what was the question again people more relaxed quality thousands i think probably overall i think yes i think overall yes but in certain periods of time yeah and and i think the we all thought that the internet and mobile my phone's everything was gonna make was gonna be the answer we all awful thought ai was gonna be the answer because then he be like well life's going so much easier i've got somewhat defer all my tasks to that wouldn't it be so much easier if i could just quickly check something up on on on the company drive you know what were our sales figures for last quarter type it into you know into your database and brings you up you didn't have to go down to the records department and go and speak to marjorie it was generally by ninety year old woman who would being charge of the records you have to go and do that so you think always can make things easier by fact no it's it's kinda done the opposite because there's there's the expectation that it's simple to look up a document so therefore why wouldn't you say to someone i'll just favor well i know it's sat but just look up that documents sent it to me yeah absolutely and also the things that are lost in that interaction actual having to walk take a break away from what you're doing really great for for a refocus and those micro opportunities to rest and recover having a conversation with marjorie relationships that one of the best ways that we can we can build our our sense of connection and well being belonging so there's all those little moments that used to be part of everyday working life that now completely taken away because it's all it's all just behind the computer screen yeah and also you wanted the coffee or a sandwich you went to the coffee shop or the sandwich shop you didn't get on uber i get it delivered to your desk so you like you said you had that micro break all this convenience is basically just given us more opportunity to work yes yes absolutely so talking of works we have one more before the break yeah what have you got there ali lee what do you need to choose a number number let's go for number two number two what plan b did you choose after thirty that ended up better than your original plan i think we might both have the same answer here mh what yours podcast me too podcast yeah and i even trace it back to the original travel podcast to a certain extent because although we weren't doing that for commercial reasons that sow the seed to do one hundred and twenty hundred and sixty episodes and that that sow the seed for this one which made this one a lot more straightforward to to get set up and get started so yeah the podcast i think we went for well you tell story when we first decided one did podcast what was it gonna be it was a marketing stream it was a way for us to promote the consultancy we do through our consultancy oblong and then we got picked up by hopes hubspot podcast network really early on maybe seven eight episodes in yeah and what an amazing opportunity because it we were on the accelerator program we give access to all these resources and opportunities and funding so it then became something that was wasn't even a plan b it was just something we did a marketing play then actually became plan eight because this is a really great way to to build something cool and and make a living from it as well so so yeah i guess it was a plan because with with a sideways life our first podcast it wasn't that we ever started that with a view to monetize it because we started it's a way to just record what we were doing traveling and living abroad but i think there was a part of both as a thought well a brand it could be something at some point and still could be and still could be yeah podcast well i've got another one actually which is kinda weird because when i first started my second business and my first business i letter rubbish didn't know what i was doing second business i started was this give me some beer business i talked about two or three weeks ago where we delivered alcohol to twenty four hours basically is uber but for alcohol and this was two thousand and two and i got it completely wrong and i went bankrupt and i got two houses repo so my plan a was to turn that business into i wanted one of one giving me some beer in every single town in the uk university town of the uk was gonna franchise it was gonna be huge that went the wrong way and then my house got repo and then i learned about repo recession and then i started a company that help people who are getting repo and we basically bought the house and rented it back to them and that's what really gave us our wealth i suppose and so that was my plan b which turned out to be i think and that was funny enough that was around thirty thirty one i think that happened so yeah yeah yeah what is it cliche saying but life's what happens when you're busy making other plans mh anyway you you're something about a breakout we need me to put in our ads so our lovely people hubspot continue to pay for a life yet so we'll see you in just a few seconds you know the trail hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like it is of course brought to you by the hopes spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human success obsessed from the perspective of a millennial something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love phil love phil a fellow millennial who's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley has the best name to be said in the extract voice ash man barbara dun okay welcome back if if you've joined us now at this to what an odd person you are why would you join a podcast halfway through but just to case you've forgotten we've got a link list of questions that from a reddit sub called ask old people isn't ask all people yeah and we're assuming the role of old people although probably we are comparing as far as the young kids are yeah young to sam older many of this yes we're skip toilet okay so we're i'll choose a number then so how about i go for number fifteen number fifteen oh no you just gate did fifteen i think no haven't okay was fifteen oh interesting similar to what we were talking about before the break actually do people who go through extreme trauma and loss actually become stronger or more successful or is that just something people say to come through us oh what are your thoughts from psychological obviously trauma is is a very broad term extreme trauma can look like a lot of things and so i will be without too much on that thing to now is we all have a window of tolerance in terms of the type of the extent of the trauma and stress that we can we can manage and that looks different for everybody so for example out of the story pull the break about how i'm going bankrupt that's that's a significant trauma that could have completely derailed some people mh and took a very different trajectory for the next ten years for you it was very traumatic and stressful but you are able to use it in a way that created opportunity so then it comes down to your individual level of tolerance the actual nature of the trauma and loss in terms of do you become stronger or more successful i mean yeah because resilience is literally defined as is kind your ability to bounce back and if you've been through a trauma or a loss and you've been able to bounce back reflecting on that and the hope it gives you an optimism it gives you going into future that's all part of what we call psychological capital as is our self efficacy our ability to or our belief in our abilities all those things can help has become stronger and more successful as a blanket to term i think it's problematic isn't nick because it can be little the impact in of the trauma somebody is going through so i think i think yes that to an extent people will say that to comfort you but also yay it can be absolutely true depending on the nature of the trauma how you respond to it significantly within that the support network you have around you help you respond to that and how you can actually reflect on it in a very very detailed way as we actually talked about when we talked about are when we got kicked out bosnia episode mh we went through a very structured process of reflection and reflective learning and thinking is really effective in terms of helping us build our resilience because we start to connect the dots of how we were able to bounce back but and yeah i don't know what do you think i think there's there's two parts this i think we all have adversity we all have challenges throughout our life and i think there's kind of like the stacking thing where if you get if you've had a really tough year and then you lose your job that is that could be like you said that thing that pushed you over whereas if you've had an right year and you lose your job might be like well this is devastating but of i'll bounce back so there's that the second part of it is i think is where you are in your life and i think that you know the older you get the more you realize you've got less time to recover and this is the one thing which i think i'd love people under the age of thirty to understand i'm sure they do i'm not being patronizing but would like everyone to understand this is that the in the majority of case you've got decades decades and decades to recover so if you make a mistake and it is a big one it doesn't matter whereas if you're on your seventies and you better you know let's say you you you you invest in something entire life savings and it goes you haven't got those decades to recover so i think that part of it is that yes people are saying it to to to try and make you feel better of course they are of course they are i one hundred percent believe that every bad thing that happened has got a good thing behind it it's just you might not see that for a year or even two years or even five years you might not see it but i think there's that but then i'm hopeless optimistic and thirdly i think it's down to your stage of life yeah i agree with all that and one thing i would i would add is that positive mindset is something you can train yourself in mh is something that you can practice as much as you'd practice something like mindfulness or physical health going for a run it is a muscle that you can strengthen and that's not to that's not to bury the trauma or a bury the immersed and and cover it with toxic positivity that's ultimately gonna crumble it's understanding that any type of traumatic life event whether it be in in work or outside of work requires processing and if you're processing that in an effective way and reflecting it in a way that you can consolidate the lessons and and what you want to take forward with you then you be more likely to be resilient and more likely to overcome future challenges so yeah if you're interested in anything like that i'd recommend doctor audrey tang series of books which i recommend all the time it's the leader's guy to mindfulness the leader's guide resilience and leader's guide to well being doesn't have to have to be in a leadership position to to make the merits of of these books lots of great cell coaching exercise in it that was all about this type of positive psychology and and how to how to build up our psychological capital so check those out yeah just a quick side if you wondering do what all people did back in the day then they did what i did which i bought from secondhand hand i bought some tapes in a big presentation box that came in a big like a four that's letter for you your americans a four like parcel with tapes that you pulled out you put in you listened to and i listen to toby tony robbins i listened to jim rowan i listened to all these kind of things and you go now it feels really quite cheesy to say that anybody was a bit easier at the time but that's what i was saying that was building up so if i was into sports i went to play tennis then i would practice every night tennis and then i'd become probably quite good at tennis but better rather than the rest whereas so not better than the rest better than the average i'm in whereas my practice every night was listening to these tapes so that i built my resilience which is why when something bad happened i'm like that's okay yeah we're working out so i'm not saying that's necessarily you going listen to jim ronan or anyone like that and in fact do be careful who you choose to listen to because a lot of people out there are a load of rubbish but you know work on building resilience okay kelly are you picking a number or am i you go for at those okay have we had number eight yet no if you could ban one question from ever being asked what would it be oh i think i know the to this how are you am i i think i know the answer to this question i have an answer for this question mike i would i would want anyone who asks the question how do i do this the quickest way or what's the shortcut too really boils my back not that's a say you imagine if that went to throw a viral a hashtag ball bag i really hate that because it's like that's just lazy like if there was a shortcut everybody would know and they take it and there wouldn't be a shortcut anymore that will be the long way but stop asking for shortcuts there's rarely a shortcut the only time where success becomes it comes before work is in the dictionary is the cheesy old thing used to say but it's actually kinda of true so i'm sorry to break it to you but that guy on tiktok who says well i'll send you eight that you just an eight thousand pound course and i'll show you how to how to do you know triple your money in crypto no no there's no shortcut because if he knew out a shit triple his money in crypto he would do it day after day and would never ask you for money what do you think love i think that's a good one i i think for me it's any question that is leading in a way that is trying to prove the other person wrong will make them silly or stupid give us an example anything that comes out the mouth of someone like tate do you know what i mean all that breed of influence i'm gonna do a new metric on the on podcast is gonna be called t t tea time to take the average type to take att t t i haven't brought up the tape for ages no you haven't actually no i knew who you're talking about what you're gonna say the sooner and ass yeah just that just that breathe that and what and what i hate as well as now we're seeing it in terms of like like the whole trump jd vance with si in the oval office that was just an ugly ugly situation that asking questions they don't want the answer to they're asking questions to make him look bad or prove him wrong or and i i see that type of behavior breeding in certain circles and including it the monastery and i aren't the on social which i think is unfair to men to be honest because i'm majority men i know aren't like that but i just think any question that is loaded leading or includes the word because oh this is our this is our thing lee thank you for that she just she's just chipped that up i just gonna get my head on it anyone who says to you ask your a question and then use the word because they don't give a shit to what you say so example hey began have you ever been to be bulgaria because what i'm about to say something about how you entered bulgaria yes so or something really negative about bulgaria and now they're gonna make me sound now i have to disagree with you so you're looking for conflict yes not got time people looks conflict no there's nothing fit in the world you don't need to be looking for it if you wanna to be fair i don't think it's an nefarious thing but if you if you're from the uk you and you watch sas kitchen then i do like james martin the the the host of it in the chef is you you know it's a decent fella but once you hear this i'm sorry to ruin inside the kitchen for forever every question he asks he always puts it because and whenever he puts because is either talk about himself or talk about something he wants the guest to know he knows about them so yeah sorry for ruining sad the kitchen for you there but you'll hear it with piers morgan you'll hear it with you know a lot of the the people out there there's sort of shock jokes howard it's stern etcetera not about you about them another one for you all what's a bit of we're talk on a similar similar theme what's a behavior that you used to tolerate but will no longer entertain regards of how many decades you've known a person i think it's bitch about people i used to be a salty little bugger i used to i used to love nothing because i was really insecure as a as a as a kid and then also as a as as a young adult or even old adult and you have to i think you have to be insecure to be an entrepreneur and i hate the word entrepreneur but that's what we're calling it these day because otherwise if you're satisfied with yourself and your life then you don't wanna actually grow so i used be quite secure so i used to love it when other people come and go hate hear what happened and down there god they got so much trouble they messed it up so bad like surely they can't done that they're really intelligent meaning i was asking about those was question surely can't they really tell me because i'm sure i've heard them beating the tell no no no they totally messed up now someone starts talking me like that about someone or a group of people not interested mh what i you have you got one i think in a workplace setting any form of shocking cheating what do you mean by shot advantage so for example right and this this is how things stay with you and i must have been twenty five or six when this happened so you're talking fifteen years ago and it's still me off so i was a job coach which meant i helped people who were unemployed more than likely for a long period of time weekend gain work and there was a rule within the team because there were occasions where a customer would change job coach whatever reason whether it be a capacity issue or one of us would change location or whatever else so there was a there was an there's always an element of risk in terms of if you were helping somebody find a job then they get moved to another coach that coach would them be with him when they got said jobs that wouldn't go against your targets yeah so the general rule in the team which was reinforced supposedly by our manager was it if you've put a note on the system specific about a job that you support this person with regardless of when they get that job even if they're with another coach that going your figures your performance figures so for example it was like customer interviewed for admin position at royal mail expects to hear november twenty twelve you old man and this is what i basically had so then when i'd been moved on to another the contract but still had us the same target just in a different area so i i did like to check up on my customers and see how they're getting on particularly ones that would done really well we're getting really close so i logged on system found this person and the new their new job coach had claimed their job with royal mail for the admin position that they heard of at that time cool man not cool not cool so i phoned my manager i was like can you explain this please this doesn't seem fair oh it doesn't massively and it doesn't matter you're on target this month anyway it doesn't matter no it does matter because if we're all allowed to break that rule isn't with upheld it's no longer a rule so we're all gonna be shocking each other i just annoyed me and you know what you you know who that person was yep cc see no the coach oh like okay yeah i know you mean yeah i'm not gonna use that one but at the time i was like okay i'll try and let it go but i'd never really quite trust this person but i tried to hit on and ultimately throughout my entire career with that company she was always the one that was taking opportunities away from me for my team taking a glory for herself not acknowledging the successes that we had making my life difficult always and now it's like if somebody behaves like that i'm not working with you anymore because we if we have a conversation and you know it's that okay and i understand let's address that of course fine but this no i've not got the time because it's not gonna end well no now and in sales there is that horrible thing in sales you tend to most organizations tend to move towards everyone's in it for themselves and it's because of that and it's such a shame where it was one company i used to sell tele sales stuff for and it was actually a really cool company because there was one girl in there sorry ak look at me this is why old because i said girl and she was a woman one woman there i can't remember brand name began with him and she used to always hit do a target very solidly very quietly do a target by thursday and then then friday i think said this before enough pub friday she'd ring up keep ringing up selling and then give it to the people who were short their target and then they did on monday they worked and they i mean to be fair maybe she was maybe she was just like she i don't know there's no angle there no she was just a lovely person yeah lovely person yeah and i've worked in in more sales based environments where people weren't like that at all yeah so yet to the point where our person who used to like direct the calls when they'd come in and if there was a a like a queue or waiting time the bin that role would have been a new role created and i was asked by this person who sort obviously couldn't got the job whether i was gonna apply for it and i said no i'm back to university in september there's no point and he was like yeah but you could get it for nine months and it's like almost twice the salary i was like yeah i'm not gonna take the opportunity away from somebody who really wants it so when then that person would would if i was a bit behind on my target would send me the really good calls oh amazing but you fact you make sure stacked isn't it right so if you are under the age of thirty you're listening karma is real got can't i can't show you the science behind it but it is real and it will bite you or it will kiss you on the ass whichever the two is is worst lee i feel like we're we're on about thirty five minutes now so we've probably got room for about ten more to tomorrow i've got some i've got some quick ones to go through what were all people saying when you were kid about how things were back in their day one thing i remember so clearly was my na saying to me like you don't understand back in my day we had to go to the bathroom outside what yeah my dad said i think my dad said he remembers in his lifetime when they got an indoor toilet my dad was born in nineteen forty six so it's not like old old yeah yeah that's this kinda kinda weird isn't it and then just the and that's what makes me feel old now that you say my grandparents were saying that it was definitely a thinking in the fifties and sixties when both of our parents we're alive yeah and now we're talking about how ai is potentially gonna replace knowledge workers it's like how we gone from only just getting indoor toilets to compute is taking over our jobs in what sixty is no and that makes me feel odd yeah i think also the i think this it's a typical parent or grandparent they're all back in my there we usually the doors unlocked and and you know all that kind of stuff but then in the same in the same way they'd also talk quite dis discouraging about disposing about certain certain groups of the population demographics mh and and so yeah i was kinda like weird but nostalgia always nostalgia is not the same as it used to be that's why i leave than that what's the oldest email address you have in terms of number of years oh so my oldest email address is a hotmail email address yeah and i probably started it in about two thousand and eight i think i can well i'm pretty sure had an email address back when i was on there's something at aol in the uk well there wasn't in the uk but also something called comp serve i think any of the people in my age will remember miller that it came free on the front of a a cd or a disc free on the front of a computer my computer shopper magazine and i'm pretty sure at a comp serve email address which would i would have been around about fifteen so that would be nineteen ninety two nice oh no that you still have now oh it's that now oh no oh i'll ask just less input less interesting gmail i've about it for about twenty years and honestly i think there's about a quarter of million emails in there yeah yeah no my very first email was an aol well email of course so that's that's that's that a misleading question lia anne i'm sorry i think i think it's just it's funny that it blows young people's minds that we have email addresses that like fifteen seventeen twenty years old and the other i thought it's quite funny if someone's got an email address they obviously set up in in college like roger just sixty nine kinda thing and they're still using it today is like yeah anyway what things did old people in your day used to do at work that made you cringe i remember when i was first started out the networking circuit back in about sort of what would be about nineteen ninety nine and i remember distinctly meeting people and particularly they were there were a very tight there was there were men of a certain age and they used to grab my hand shake really hard squeeze really hard and then turn it so that their hand was on top of mine and be like hey my name's dave dave i'm dave i'm the sales guy dave what's your name and dave and they're you exactly they i they must have been to some kind of seminar where they if you say your name four times to remember you and then turn your hand over and they'll be like who the hell is this oh my god i've got to submit to them straight away what about you i think general misogyny i'm not saying it doesn't exist now absolutely it does but it was a lot more transparent what i dream work in terms of ours one that would looked out to go and make the tea and yeah talk down to and called sweetheart and that type of thing i know it still exists now but it was it was a lot more and that used to meet me he used to make me cringe even back in like the sort of late eighties early nineties i remember and i remember people used to describe to scrubs i'll drop it off my girl's desk will you at his secretary desk drop it off my girl's desk and if you much swear my mom won't watch mad men and and she's like i can't stand how the misogyny how bad it was back then because she was back in the workforce about the same time and i keep saying to it mom it gets better it all goes up i booked got wrote it for you guys you've got seen mad but it can't goes the other way anyway yeah yeah mad is a great series to watch to see the evolution of work even in those what thirty years that it covers or twenty years it covers yeah and and then you can see at the end just how progressive it is but then also how much we moved on in that cut and have what yes yeah yeah absolutely yeah what was your first experience of using computers my first experience they've got i remember too because to be clear we are old enough to have have lived a good amount of our lives without yes that said i was i must been about seven or eight years old and my dad bought a god i car with a call that basically i wanted a bbc basic or a bbc something computer acorn or something was but he he bought something else from from from tan back in the day and it was a computer that had a you you got a separate tape player and you plugged your tape player into your computer and you could play stuff and i used to program in basic i'd spend like my holidays four days writing hand coding racing game so that on the fifth day i could play it with my keys so that i would be about seven which would be about nineteen eighty four early doctor yeah yeah and i surprising how well i did with the ladies later on in though actually that's not true you did very well you very much yes later in life i did computers i don't remember my first time when we had them at school but like the old ones that were like dos where it's just like yeah black screen green font but the first like the flash memory i have about computers was when i must have been about i don't know maybe i in early high school maybe eleven and my dad sat me down in front of a of the computer his work computers but he he'd got his first laptop and it was like did have a nip in the middle between this between the two letters for your mouse i can't remember but it was a weight thing it was a wait talk true of to characters and he he opening it up and he was like leanne i want to show you something this is called the internet and it's gonna change the world wow and i was like what's up then he was up absolutely where i within probably three or four years everyone's online on msn chat space counts and like but yeah that was my first but it's funny to think that when actually goes on to our next question which is what about your uni life would you would sound weird today though the ability to research information online was still very limited when i went to university in two thousand and three that you'd have to go to the library and you'd have to find the journal and you'd have to photocopy if you want to take it out of said library or you'd borrow the books to write your essay you couldn't just google it google with googling the no couldn't google things so it was it was a lot more a lot more manual and speaking of manual another thing that was weird about life at university i did type up my essays but there wasn't a portal to submit them so had to print it off take it down to the administration office which was like five miles away go to the office get like like a cover sheet that had a sticky bit in the corner where you felt your name and your your student number and then fold it down and stick it so it could be marked anonymously and then we'd we'd have to then go back in on a certain date when we're were told in our lectures that that marking was red we we're going and collect it from same admin office and if you didn't go to a you were screwed because nothing was online i remember that it's where you said you could there was no portal and i was like why hell would be a portal i don't understand why there'd beer a portal because i i remember all of our stuff was either printed out in the last year of my university universities printed out in nineteen ninety eight to be printed out but in the first two years ninety five ninety six it was all handwritten and you put a punch punch two holes in it and you'd use treasury tags to go through the punch holes and you'd hand it in to the to the actual you have to go in into wants a treasury tag treasury tag is like a little piece of rope a minute miniature piece of rope with two like a a tea bar at the end and what used to do was you you punch like you you did to use a whole punch a whole punch is and use take these a four pieces of paper a piece of paper is like a tree there's be a face us a way to keep something there that have got holes in the side of it if you didn't have like a file for it you put these treasury tags to like temporary lever arch file sort of thing brilliant wow we are old we owed couple more quick ones for you this is quite footage because i know you'll have a good answer this question about radio back in the day hi folks hope doing well just had a random thought and want some insight from people who lived in a time before advanced technology rude when you would hear a song on the radio and we liked it but did not know a name of it how did you find out the name oh you couldn't well then you there was a couple of ways so you sometimes what you used to do is you'd tap your tape recorder close to your radio wouldn't you and you try and record a song just after the d dj had said something you said the last what you thought it was the last words and invariably one in three times they come back in and go oh by the way and you be like oh man i'm recording this but then they all seems to do something called back announced and with a lot of the a lot of the songs used to just play them and then back announce what it was but i remember distinctly way i first heard a s on my iphone three and i'm distinctly going this is the future of the world this is what everyone will been waiting for a night just kinda like died a death didn't nip yeah the but when you'd have like you'd have magazines like man smash you what was the n enemy enemy if you're a cool yeah so so then you'd see like the the name of it or it have like the lyrics printed in it or you just go to school and play it to your friend on your walk that you taped off off the radio illegally and ask everything heard of it we listened to the top forty charts on a sunday you used you exactly did that that's how come the pops on a friday but thursday top thursday thursday night top of the pops you exactly what you would do you'd listen for three hours in a and you couldn't skip forward be three hours of playing all of the top forty songs from forty down to one and you couldn't miss it because that one song realized liked you didn't know it was oh you don't go to the bathroom for three hours exactly no so that was it with doctor fox and whose things ago does the confessions are radio two simon and car was saying i'm sure you're shouting that but yeah he was he was originally i think one of the top forty guys yeah i just it was such an activity though wasn't it that was just sunday afternoon sorted do you know i did see something i to the other day someone i was saying what right i've got a great idea what it is it's podcasts but it's just streamed live and someone was that dude that's a radio i sorry of the one that was like is anyone just thought about like having one mobile phone that's dedication for the house everyone can share and if you wanna use to get in touch with anyone bring your family can just phone one dedicate mobile our phone in the house it's like dude that the landline anyone i know anything else before we go i mean there's a slightly deep one that might be nice to to finish on did you worry about finding your passion or was work just work do you have an answer to this i was mindful of wanting to do a job that felt i felt connected with so things like fun because professional services is very much the vibe before odd day wasn't it so things like account see and lawyers i just didn't sounded boring so psychology was something that sorry joe your sister to is each each the right is it of course to me it felt boring so we yeah i've told the story before so i won't tell it again but basically it had an experience when i was in high school with a psychologist and i thought what she did was really cool and then pursued it from there and then after i finished my i didn't really know what avenue psychology wanted to go into so i took a gear out and i remember putting my third day work waking up to my alarm at like half past six and thinking is this it mh is this it is this what adult looks like i go to work to job it don't particularly like don't get paid very much come home and watch shall they i go to bed and do the same again the next day nah not for me so i guess from a fairly early age as was probably twenty one yeah and work needs to be more than just work i think i quite lucky in and i did teacher training for two years trained to be a mass teacher and then i went went i'm part of that you have to go in for a term and teach and teach training in a school and i went in there and i was like i first of all i read and enjoy it secondly i know i think i'm sure i to sit there and drink whiskey till three o'clock in the morning with my house mate then go to bed and then get the train at five o'clock well you could when you could could you could and the third thing was that and this that i was only what maybe he's eighteen at the time nineteen at the time and the head master took me you sat me down and he said after tony he said okay been watching what you've been doing and think you i think you're a good teacher i think you got some really really good opportunities here if you work really hard so you need to graduate work really hard and in about twenty twenty five years time you'll be sitting here as a deputy head earning twenty eight thousand pounds if you if you work really hard and i got on the train that night and worked to be fair almost myself from front of the train and i got on the train and i'm like no i ain't doing that i ain't doing that i ain't working twenty five years ironically me saying people not looking for shortcuts and i'm looking i was for shortcuts and so instead i found that i really enjoyed creating things and that now when i create something things as matter what it is the podcast anything i feel like that's not work so i feel like i don't work because i know what it is that makes me happy which is creating things i think there's a there's may be a myth we need to take care of here is that that yes if you're doing something you're passionate about doesn't necessarily feel like work maybe but for me it still very much felt like work mh like i think back to some of the highest stress jobs i've had and even though i've absolutely loved them it's been really hard and there's not been a shortcut to i've had to hustle and work hard to get to the management position to then get the next thing to then be able to go self employed it's not like over and not you know i was twenty one thought i know i'm gonna start podcast about work it would be rubbish if it pumps so i think there is an element of it you need if you can get both if you can find your passion and have a good work ethic a healthy work ethic then i think that's a nice balance but i think there's very few people who are fortunate to find some they just a hundred percent passionate about never feels like work can get to do it all day in fact that's a really good place to think to leave it and i so if anyone is under the age of thirty and they think i just i hate my job i just want a job that i just cannot wait to get up to in the morning that probably doesn't exist it probably shouldn't exist for you because that's your hobby that's the stuff you do for fun on a friday afternoon on a saturday morning or whatever and then the second imagine if you just loved making cakes he went ryan gonna start cake business and then you suddenly had to make cakes you're gotta stop you're gonna fall out of love with with cakes so i think all that is a bit of a rad about way of saying is that don't chase that idea that work is always easy fun because the fact is that some of the most rewarding work in the world is difficult challenging sometimes you go should i be doing this but ultimately you just cannot not do it yeah we all need a little bit tension that's what makes the the achievement so fulfilling lovely well it looks like your drink has been has been taken off my flies been it's been affected by a fly so we're gonna refresh that beverage and we will see you next week we're back on thursday with another interview but don't worry it's not one of those like real serious ones it's kind of bit of fun so i can't remember it but it's definitely double cool jumped till life no let let everyone be surprised thank fun it's a good one see you soon bye bye

there's a google employee who stopped drinking water during work hours not because she forgot but because she didn't have time to use the bathroom there's a vale historian with a perfect gpa who ate her lunches in elevators while biking between meetings and there's a silicon valley success story who on her thirty four's birthday woke up feeling so empty she packed a bag and left everything behind they are all the same person our guest caroline ne las wore business like a badge of honor until her body and mine simply said enough she's a former google and american express employee you discovered that climbing the corporate ladder at break next speed meant she was climbing the wrong ladder entirely caroline his story started like the american dream colombian immigrant arrives at seventeen get scholarships achieves perfect grades lands jobs at the world most prestigious companies but here's the thing she was literally too good for her own good from a very young age i started receiving accolades and awards for my academic results so i was in high school commencement speaker in college four point o gpa which in the us is like perfect score i started to notice that i would get attention and love through my accomplishments tension love validation self worth through output that's unhealthy of course after a six month mental health article and a journey across italy india kenya and beyond carolina discovered something profound the opposite of burnout isn't happiness it's something much simpler and more radical carolina calls it flourishing but don't worry this isn't another instagram perfect wellness story when carolina talks about flourishing she means waking up on a tuesday morning and simply being okay with being human even if that means feeling sad or angry or even lost and in a world where how are you is answered with busy carolina has a challenging message maybe that badge of honor your wearing is actually killing you hello and welcome to truth lives and work the award winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture brought to you by the hopes podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my name is leanne i'm a charge occupational psychologist my name is allan i'm a business owner and we are here to help you simplify the science of war so today we're asking what happens when busy becomes your entire identity let's find out after this very short break you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by app accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems south familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and that fan experience in just one part this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new setups ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better it's so joins he by a pretty incredible woman i'm not even gonna attempt to talk about her street because i think there's a lot of things we can dive into here but before we start can you just tell us carolina who you are what you do and what you might be famous for i'm carolina lasso i am an author i am a an eternal student and a fellow human being walking this planet earth i major in international business i'm immigrant from columbia and i moved to the us when i was seventeen and i had a pretty big dream of accomplishing a lot of goals i was very determined and then that up going into business because i got a scholarship and then i followed the steps they tell us to follow in order to be happy yet to get to a point and realize oh this ladder i have been climbing this is not my ladder this road i've been driving so fast so quickly with so much determination and energy this is not my road so i had to lately i've been calling it rec recalculate kinda like when you're driving and your gps is rec and you're go in a different direction and i've reinvented myself so now nowadays i call myself a purpose mentor and a human flourishing teacher facilitator and eternal student and that's what i do i love though connecting with people i love walking side by side people from all corners of the world for them to reconnect with our purpose sense of meaning and flourishing karen i wanna start off it's the biggest question after doing so much research the biggest question i've got for you it seemed like you had everything you had the mba you had degrees you had travel experience you you're working at google you worked at am you seem to of just given it all up one day just said no i don't want anymore tell me the story what happened yeah this is actually the story on how i i begin my first book the back of flourishing and it starts on my thirty fourth birthday interestingly enough i had gone out with friends and my feet were hurting from dancing so much the night before i received so many gifts and hugs and just so much love from people and so you would have thought that everything was fine in my life i was married i was living in silicon valley sunny veil specifically the veil of this the valley of the sun right so like it's sunny every single day and the next morning i woke up feeling so much sense of emptiness and lack of clarity about my life it was the sense of like all these things that i have that i've earned that i have worked so hard for are not really leading me to being happy what's going on and so it was disappointment at another level because it was just like i did everything right that feeling of i had checked all the boxes why is it that i don't feel happy why is it that i have so many profound questions about the meaning of life about what to do next my next chapter i had given up a little bit on life because of that disappointment of doing everything supposedly by the book and not getting that happiness back and so that day i left my house i left i just backed up a bag and left and went on to think i just needed to have space quiet space to think that led into taking a six month sa article from google because of mental health my big questions evolved into frustration worry concern eventually anxiety eventually apa empathy eventually depression so i left and got divorced and traveled around the world to find myself a little cli cliche i know the whole eat pray love thing my friends joke about the fact that i am the colombian version of pray love because indeed i went to eat did to our therapy i went to live in an ash in southern india in the state of car i eventually i also went to kenya tanzania singapore colombia and i just wanted to learn i became obsessed about learning from all of these different cultures and and traditions and wisdom from so many different places around the world to understand a why i was not happy and two then what was the recipe the ingredients for happiness and when i got back i i realized that it was not happiness that i was after it was something deeper and i in my book i call thor in spanish there is the word that doesn't have a translation which is and it involves being content being whole being in a state of tranquility being well wholesome and then i realized that that's what i was really looking for something that would be with me the peaks and the valleys of my life not necessarily happiness which has this huge eu euphoria upbeat high energy connotation but something a lot more relatable stable in my life and so i've found for my own benefit for my own life the seven principles that take us to a lead flourishing life i didn't even know i would call it that but eventually that's what became my first book right so caroline has just told us by waking up on a thirty fourth birthday feeling completely empty despite having everything but here's what i wanted to understand was this actually about achievement or was there something deeper going on you were doing everything in your life right you were like you're going to google you're at am max you were silicon valley you were living and like you were saying in in the most amazing place what's the difference between healthy ambitious and healthy goals and just sort of collecting achievements what's the difference between healthy ambition and just being addicted to it is how it reframe the question i was addicted to it for sure because from a very young age i started receiving accolades anna awards for my academic results so i was high school commencement speaker in college four point o gpa which in the us is like perfect score and i loved it and i realized that i started to notice that i would get attention and love through my accomplishments attention love validation self through output and that's a really hard realization to get to but it was the truth it just happens right when when human beings develop we'll all develop certain things and that was mine and so that's unhealthy of course to and it took me it took so much work shadow work all sorts of retreats and therapy and exploration and inquiry to get to that point and realize that i am not my goats i am my self worth my identity my worth my value does not come from anything external but the moment i started to tie my self worth to my accomplishments that's when he got to be not helpful not productive i was too good for my own good is how i came to think about it trying to deal so much and and be the good student and be the good daughter and be the good neighbor and the good citizen up until up to a point that you became negative for my own well being because i would bend over our backwards for everybody i would sign up for all types of products at work i would do so much and that's the thing i was so focused on doing i forgot being and that trip around the world it allowed me to space to be not just do and so it it's a reminder that we're not human doing for human beings and i think that's the difference when you have goals when you have structure when you have clarity about what you want that's wonderful so long as your self worth is not tied to it what's the difference between having a bad week or a bad month and what you felt like how did you know it wasn't just something that oh it it'll pass i thought it would be something that would pass i thought i was going through something tim per and i do wanna name that a lot of the self help books and content out there encourages to like keep on going yeah just wake up next day and stand up and with discipline the right main mindset you'll accomplish anything and so i believed it and i would keep on trying that today it's gonna be better oh we up i'm gonna go do my mindfulness practice i am gonna go to the gym and i wanna gratitude i'm gonna do this and i'll try to do it all and i would still feel so empty and and dissatisfied and i think apa empathy is probably the one that struck me the hardest because i was always very engaged very involved very positive in general in my life and when no matter what i did wouldn't help i realized it was time to ask for help and the other part was that there was shame associated with mental health and so i would go to work wearing my mask my happy smiling i can do it all mask because i thought that opening up to say i'm not okay would completely damage my reputation this was my my own story my head of well you're not cut for this right i was working at google with really in minds and sober determined on hardworking people and so admitting that something was not okay was kind of admitting that i i couldn't do it that i was not cut for it that i was not made for something like that and so i were refused to and i denied it for close to a year and of course it felt like a pressure cooker right and so the more you hide it the stronger it is going to explode one day and so one day i just couldn't take it any longer my boss realized and he knows just how bad it was and that's when i started my my time off so i think deep inside we know it i was listening to a podcast by b brown and doctor brown as we know as a researcher on different types of emotions and shame and she talked about in her book atlas of the heart that it based on her research the average person the average person can only name three emotions happy angry or sad and if you think about or if you've ever seen or anyone listening if you've ever seen the wheel of emotions my goodness that are are so many things so we can feel as human beings that we even have labels for i'm i'm sure there are many others that we can't even name or label or have a word for and so it's really important to have that depth of discernment and understand what going on with us so if someone's listening to this and it's resonating deeply be they're going do you know what i am wearing businesses as a badge can you give them something some practical steps in saying how they climb down from that point in their life it's going yeah i would say step one is recognition noticing noticing and sometimes you don't even notice that's what you're doing and so first notice oh gee i've been doing that for a long time now number two ask yourself what's underneath that why would business make you important would elevate you there's this extra sense of elevation of what to what for what who do you want to impress is it yourself is it your inner child is it your parents and your boss who is behind this what's going on there and once you've uncovered then recognize what may be driving it what was the trigger point for that and using that information then you can uncover to and explore ways to change it from that root cost right because you can try to just change the language and not saying busy ink and say fine i'm doing fine or you know i'm more spacious today or whatever but if it's not authentic and if it doesn't tackle the root cause then it will continue to happen or it'll be superficial or fake but what's underneath that right in my case it was that sense of well i'm busy then that means i'm successful and if i'm successful and if i do a lot of really good things and have productive outcomes and very creative solutions that i'm gonna be accepted i am going to belong i'm gonna be loved that's not what's yours but on the other side right and so i think it becomes real important to get to that cost let's talk about belonging for a second the i knew you were going to go there i saw your eyes i saw your eyes you knew it belonging you traveled a lot of people meet who travel extensively i sense they're just looking for somewhere to belong but often they just all that changes is the view out their window what would you say is someone who feels like they don't really belong does travel help does changing jobs help i could come up with a really good answer for that but what i would wanna say is teach me because i'm still struggling with it after moving so many times i've lost count on the number of cds where i've lived even within one state or one region of the world i i think on average i was moving once a year and so it really uproot you and i've struggled with sense of the belonging and identity being multicultural bilingual being just just having one foot here one foot there so right now i'm living in canada most of the year putting in the winter i could spend my time in colombia and if they're throughout the year i'm also traveling to so many different places and so it really makes me wonder where to like belong and i'll tell you i go back to colombia where i grew up and i don't belong fully anymore and it hurts me i'm like i wanna belong here i want this to be my home but there are just so many cultural aspects that don't resonate with me anymore and yet if i'm in north america if i'm in europe i'm also like ugh no i don't belong here either i don't resonate my joke is that i mean i'm born that i belong in the caribbean like somewhere in between north and south america so i've come to embrace it and just know that i will never feel like i fully belong and how can i make that okay how can i create my own culture how can i create my own home and develop it within me so that it's it comes with me wherever i go now sounds nice not easy and i don't think they've gotten to that point just yet i'm homes sick very frequently anywhere i go i'm busy she's right people do say that all the time it is our default response and she's connecting it to this need to belong to be loved but a i'm thinking about our listeners who genuinely are busy not by choice but by necessity that was exactly what i was thinking when i was talking to carrying it so i pushed back on this let's see what she says what happens if you haven't got the luxury to be able to go out there and follow what brings you joy because you have to bring in money to feed a family or to care for a sick one what we supposed to do now i think joy the word joy also has that sense of euphoria and big smiles i think the type of joy i would wanna connect with and the type of joy i talk about is one that is a lot more grounded on the inner knowing the inner yes it's a little bit of connecting to the inner compass that tells us it's this way the yes is here not necessarily the big laughter and smiles that are not always possible let me come back to that but i do want to address what you're mentioning which is the toxic positive positivity that ignores marginal oppression injustice in the world and that no with just a changing mindset i'm not just going to go and all of a sudden change my circumstances when there is something systemic that prevents me from doing it no matter what i do so i do think there is something there that we do need to address and we do need to change therefore we need more people willing to follow their inner knowing to address those changes to make the change happen and so for everybody it's that discernment of i keep going back through that word right but that ability to connect to our inner wisdom and say what's next for me where is that next step and so i talk about follow your joy from that perspective what gives me inner peace another word i use this enthusiasm from the greek in t in god in ind and i don't talk about religion but i do sense that extra connection to source connection to something bigger that guides you it guides me because it gives me peace it gives me extra sense of curiosity and motivation and so lately i've been talking a lot more about either enthusiasm or curiosity follow your curiosity so if you are a person who has to work three shifts and you do not have the time this base there's so much going on you're going through complex times how can you connect to that which gives you a little bit more inner peace tranquility that sense of curiosity and motivation and i do believe that the bigger change i talk about this a lot when i talk about purpose by the bigger change to work purpose throat towards flourishing happens one step at a time when bread crumb of curiosity at a time picking up the bread breadcrumbs one at a time of curiosity and enthusiasm and sure if there is joy that's wonderful if you can uncover it if it's present that's beautiful but it's more about that grounded level of inner knowing i'm glad you addressed the systemic issues there she's not just saying think positive when someone's working three jobs yeah but i was skeptical because follow your when you're absolutely exhausted i just didn't know whether that was can be feasible now wait until hear what she tells us about next about just how far her business went we'll find out after the break hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really like it it is of course brought to you by the host spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the perspective of a millennial or something i've got for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love them love phil a fellow millennial he's worked at some of the top companies in tech and land just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley also has the best name to be said in the extract voice ash barbara dun so going back to the young woman young woman who was eating a lunch in the elevator who was not drinking so that she didn't have to go to the toilet what's the story was she telling herself back then so i was mentioning the story i tell my book that sometimes i would have back to back meetings without any breaks throughout my day this was when i was in the corporate world that sometimes i chose not to drink so much water because i wouldn't have enough time to go to the bathroom in between meetings sometimes i remember in the google campus which was so big i had to bike from when building to the next with the pretty yellow google bikes and that wouldn't give you enough time to go to the bathroom room of course it's an exaggeration but yeah like that was part of it and the story that all of that situation stemmed from is i need to meet other people's expectations i cannot let them down there was that big component i thought i was being responsible i thought i was being responsible by attending all meetings going to everything doing at all and then i realized it was not responsible with myself my own health and that responsibility is the ability to respond and i was not really responding properly i was not really having the ability to respond because clearly that was human and and i learned right and i think that's the thing and lately i've really been embracing this idea that our life purpose our supreme life purpose is to uncover kinda like peel the onion and uncover deeper and deeper versions of ourselves that are more authentic that remove all of those ego narrative self identity layers and get to the core of who we truly are and i think that a lot of people ask me do i have a purpose does everybody have a purpose i can't find my purpose i'm like first of all you know find purpose we walk the purpose path it's a path it's a journey and number two yeah every single person has one and at the very highest level it's that to reconnect with who you truly are you'd true essence your inner being your if you allow me to say more divine self for someone who's listening to this and going and you've used all these fluff words that i read everywhere mindfulness purpose all this kind of transcend they're still not convinced is the one message you want to give to them to convince them that purpose is the way i'm not here to convince anybody i am here to provide tools for anyone that resonates with and to make it a little easier for people navigating transitions maybe offering some of the help that i wish i had during that moment and i struggled so much and i am here to remind every single person that we all every single person to deserves to flourish every single person so i don't want anyone up there thinking they don't deserve a flourishing life one with meaning one with peace of mind one with the support system they to deserve one that feels wow everybody just deserves well big b let's talk about this word flourishing you've used it a lot what does flu actually feel like i'm not talking about the instagram fancy like i'm posting beautiful quotes and lovely me happen what does tuesday morning alarm goes off while does flourishing actually feel like for the real pete i would say the shortest version of flourishing is i am well well b be well it means you get a good night's sleep and you're able to wake up and you're able to appreciate the fact that you're alive and you go out and you do your very best in whatever it is you're doing and with the resources at your disposal that's the very basic level right and then of course we want more i want more people i want to envision a world in which every single person believes they deserve flourishing they deserve alive that is driven by motivation and health and equity and they deserve moments of smiles they deserve support when the smiles are not present and the tears are they deserve to feel their all their emotions they deserve to find a path that has meaning in their lives where they can enjoy moments of processing of presence and where the the lows of life can be managed better through tools and a support network and and we decrease suffering everywhere it may sound a little your topic sometimes but i can't stop thinking about so if i've understood this then flourishing doesn't necessarily mean you wake up bounce out of bed every single day and and sing it means that you are doing something working towards something meaningful you're okay with feeling sad and crying some days perhaps feeling angry if i must've yeah i think part of it is fully embracing any and every emotion you feel because we've come accustomed to first not only not know to recognize what emotions were going through as we just talked about but then what do you do with among a lot of people reject what they're going through want to avoid those emotions and of course nobody wants to feel sad or frustrated or confused they're not pleasant but doesn't mean we shouldn't embrace them most importantly i believe that every single emotion comes with wisdom and the emotion is here to say something to us to send us a message right it's gonna like when you put your hand on the stove and it's still hot you you need to have that feedback it's hot take your hand away put it up right because otherwise you're gonna burn and you're gonna have a scarred whatever the emotion is telling you this is not the path the emotion is telling you this is not okay the emotion is telling you that was so fun the emotion is selling you there's hope here whatever it is emotions are giving us feedback data information and so yes flourishing is being okay with what is present not in a passive way but quite the contrary embracing is quite active and it requires that level of presence and z awareness and the ability to say this is part of me today it's temporary and i am going to listen to it now there's another level of flourishing that i talk about in my book which a lot more spiritual and so i talk about it being the recognition of our true essence as human beings and transcending the ego and so it's it's the recognition that i am a limitless un bounded majestic human being and i'm not just talking about myself of course every single person is and when i recognize that true essence and i overcome any obstacles my ego may present ego being the story about myself the identity i create about my own self then i am able to live more fully in the present moment and suffer less i see it as the blue sky which is always there's always present but sometimes it has some clouds that cover the sky so it's about removing the clouds more so than creating a guy that doesn't exist right it's already fair we just need to uncover it right remove what covers it to really connect with our true essence so in a nutshell flourishing level one would be being well flourishing level two would be recognizing our two essence and by doing so so much gets addressed and you just feel better i am well it's so simple but when did we lose sight of that what i appreciate is she's not promising constant happiness she's talking about being okay with a full range of emotions but then how do you actually find balance in practice let's look at the opposite her so if you are high achieve and your self worth is tied to these outcomes then you are probably gonna burn out probably gonna have something happen in your life which it did with you so then the opposite of that is going well i'm content with myself i'm satisfied myself i'm happy with where i am but then there's no tension to make yourself better so where is that middle ground of having goals to make yours to improve yourself but not having them take over your life i think once again we go back to discernment and discernment on why is it that i don't have a lot of goals what's going on have i lost my north star have i lost my motivation i'm like doing something that is too easy for me i love them concept of flow being in a state of flow so based on the book by to at mi chi at me high and in the book he talks about that channel of which is the balance between skills and joy right and so when your skills are too developed for a project or for something you're doing then you can get into boredom because it's too easy for you but when you go into something that one you don't like and two is too difficult too challenging then you go into anxiety overwhelm and so i think what's important is to find this sweet spot on constantly doing things that are interesting challenging for you going to that state of flow you're fully immersed into the activity you lose track of time you lose ego one of my favorite aspects of of flow and you're just one with the activity that is healthy that uses your skills it drives engagement it leads to joy and satisfaction and presence without the over attachment to the outcome you are so immersed with the activity it is as though you and the activity become one you're not checking the clock to see what time of is you're you even forget your hungry oftentimes you're just so embedded immersed involved in what you're doing your skills at are putting to use right whatever it is that you're doing your skills are used engaged your mind is there your heart is there and you become one there is that loss of ego of identity you're not worried about the outcome you're just is so much presence and there's so much joy because of that but this is the opposite to the young colombian woman who was eating her lunch in the elevator who wore like business like the badge of honor that was me and unfortunately i was not the only one we are so frequently wearing busy as the batch of honor often oftentimes they ask you hi how are you and you say busy the answer is i am busy notice that right i am your existence is busy i am busy embassy and it's so concerning because who were not born to just be in the hustle or busy busy every single day there is so much to life about being i had to learn the lesson the hard way and now when i see that and i see so how many people burning out with such high levels of stress not having space and time to eat a proper meal let alone to spend time with loved ones to do the hobbies that make them joyful that make them smile or just do nothing in my book i talked about when i was in italy i learned the concept of dolce out of and it's so beautiful that stay that sweet moment of doing nothing nothing in us right that ability to just be wonder around and wonder about life and how majestic it is to be able to be alive and to have this planet but we don't stop you enough to deal all of that i mean we don't even stop to go on vacation properly let alone those moments in our day to day so it all starts with taking a pause stopping taking a moment to disconnect i wanna ask a bit of a practical question because you've i agree with you by the way ego is the enemy yes and i'm willing to interrupt you there out because i don't think ego is an enemy we don't have anyone i don't think so i i actually use the war transcend when referring to the ego i actually think we should embrace it and love it and i think there are a lot of misconceptions about the eco and i a lot of different definitions right so if you go into psychology itself it means one thing sometimes i call the personality if in in c terms it means someone arrogant right like oh eco centric it comes from that but the more i would call it moment perhaps spiritual or at the the term that i have come to embrace is ego is the identity you create about your life about yourself so we all have a store in our heads of our own life i introduced myself i chose what words to include i chose what events not to include like that's my story it's the narrative i have of my own life that then becomes a little bit of a reputation that i am going to protect at all costs that's the ego it's that narrative and so oh if they perceive me as different then the ego feels attacked and so it is going to react or oh if i don't do this i'm not gonna get i'm i'm not gonna be loved i'm not gonna be long therefore the ego goes out and he does things to protect us and so i don't think we need to offer overcome we need to fight with it we should i've learned wish it embrace it listen to it and sometimes simply a piece it what's going on either what part of you feeling attacked here let's have a conversation what message do you have for me i really like the approach of internal family systems to identify all of those parts of ourselves that sometimes go out and protest or feel attacked or simply need a little bit more love and i think the ego is one of them and that ref framing is wonderful the ego isn't the enemy it's trying to protect us in her case protecting her need to belong it all comes back to that achievement addiction doesn't it using accomplishments to feel loved i'm sure we've all done it okay let's just find out quickly where people can learn more about carolina his work sure if you're will go to my website catalina lasso dot com or linkedin talk to me there if you speak spanish i'm also on instagram as cad lasso and i love your input for people so just name this podcast and let me know that you've listened to it then i'd love to engage in conversation i do answer most of the messages i get all of them and so please do connect and you still got a spanish speaking podcast i do yeah it's called lena m and i talk about purpose primarily and i talked to people who live a purposeful life because i love to present examples real a life example of what that looks like what that feels like and how it's possible for everybody what i liked about this conversation she's not selling a miracle cure a silver bullet she's not saying quit your job and move to bali no she's saying just notice notice when you say i am busy notice when you skip lunch notice when you don't drink water because you might need the toilet and maybe just maybe a quest chin whether that's really being responsible if you're just wearing busy as a badge of honor now look i know some of you listening are thinking oh it must be nice to take a six months article and of course you are right but the recognition part that doesn't actually cost anything yeah exactly even if you can't change everything you can start noticing and that really is the first step right that's it for today remember you do deserve to be well not perfect not optimized just well even on a tuesday morning this is truth thighs and work we will see next week

hello and welcome to truth lies and work what is it we say the award winning podcast where behavioral science made a workplace culture we are brought to you by the hopes hubspot podcast network which is and will always be the audio destination for business professionals my name is leanne anne i'm a charge occupational psychologist but as it's august i'm more just a jelly a jelly yeah my name is a i am a business perform well a business owner but in august i'm doing nothing we are having most of all the stuff so this is that summer edition if you listen last week you'll know that we are a recording it outside b it is a accompanied by an adult beverage mh and see is it's not quite as edited as normal we tend to just record these and and post them both it's supposed to be like you're on holiday so come on guys they all be holiday yeah from come with this on holiday yeah come with us in holiday these are the types of chats we have when we're on holiday yeah let's find out if they're interesting adopt so the idea for today was that we were gonna do what we called what do call remote work rule remote work you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data was housed across multiple systems sound familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and their fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new sign ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow back so regular mo way milk way may well no i only had two sips goodness it's going well may well no the alan and i are what kids call digital nomads what i'm enjoying at the moment side note is there's a lot of chat on linkedin from jen z and it's like they've just event invented it right it's like cute have they got a name for it not call it digital nomads and or just no mud but it's like it's a groundbreaking thing and and of course it isn't in that world so i'm i'm happy to see it and i celebrate it but yeah it is it is fun to look at people kind of popping around but anyway allan i have been no mad since twenty seventeen and we've traveled to almost fifty countries in that time stayed in over two hundred airbnb and hotels across europe southeast asia australia new zealand so we thought we know quite a lot about remote working we actually have another entire podcast about remote working if you want us into that it's called a side of his life there a different vibe no not as many ethical considerations from either as really so that's the why we're that's where you get canceled yeah would absolutely get canceled and people actually find that and connect two things so we thought we're gonna pick sorry math click there how i'm unprofessional than me we thought he would we made a little bowl mh in a bowl with some little bits of paper in with some places i'm just gonna pick them out and have a little chat about them some we'll have a like say some we'll have almost nothing to say yeah see how it goes so should we start with number one you wanna pick one out okay oh it's like a raffle oh i got new zealand we spent about week new zealand visiting our sister mh which lives in auckland beautiful yeah beautiful park the world i was quirky working quite a lot there i don't think you were as much but when my main client was an australian client and it was cool because it's the first time that was actually a time zone in front of them it's never happened to me before but really it was just kinda of kitchen table vibes we were there a few days practical considerations for new zealand first all it is quite an expensive country even compared to like the us and the uk i think we went out we had like four beers and something to eat and it was about a hundred and fifty quid for four of us or five us and secondly data i saw my backside at the airport because i just come from southeast asia where you're going by forty gigabyte for five pounds and we've got to the airport and vodafone shop we're trying to sell me something stupid like one gigabyte for fifty dollars which is about twenty thirty us dollar us dollars fifty am and i was really angry about that so if you do go to new zealand mh then you'll probably be more wifi hoping that you will be on four g because it is expensive man yes it is and also to know what i'm not sure new zealand as a type of place or where you wanna be working remotely it's so cool there's so much to see we didn't see much pictures on there a week so so yeah expensive approach with caution right okay so next one i'm pulling out is our croatia we know a lot about croatia so we're in croatia for probably on and off about three years was it only yeah maybe maybe two two turn a bit we did the digital no visa to we do it twice we applied for a second time and laugh before it came forward oh yes yes so we did the digital no visa which is essentially if you don't know you get a year to live in croatia and i think it's good tax breaks as well percent tax percent tax you get tax taxed obviously if you are in like you have to be careful if you're american because i believe it's something called w two or something in america where basically wherever you are the american tax jurisdiction will find you and make you pay tax but within in the uk and you're out the uk for a year then in theory you don't pay any tax at all do this as not financial advice no it's not croatia loved it honestly croatia is one of those places where if there was a route to permanent residency for third country nationals which is brits americans canadian is basically anyone who's not bought in the european union because it's fabulous place to be we spent a year in and at we spent then probably about six eight months around split we did a lot traveling whilst we were there it's wonderful absolutely wonderful it is a little bit more expensive than it used to be mh when we first went it was really quite cost effective and then they went into s adopted the euro things got very expensive overnight but equally it's where you are if you're going to down make sure so split very expensive islands very expensive if you're had any more towards or northern croatia much more affordable yeah there's a some famous waterfalls in croatia which cool we went in the winter where it was all frozen and that was kinda cool we also stayed in an amazing sort of like home stay sort of like balm thing where there was where we went down to the kitchen and he was cooking pork and on on the open fire and yeah it was really cool so yeah definitely also our covid summer within croatia we spent three almost three months on branch one of the islands which was just heaven on earth the dal donation coast it only the only rival for me to the dal dimension coast is potentially southeast asia yes i'm talking the best bits like lo yeah the gill it's the most stunning coastline you know in terms of of island hopping it's perfect that wash you i don't know how it's so clean and crystal clear it's it's so much fun i would absolutely recommend croatia traditional nomads would absolutely recommend croatia in terms of holidays just bear in mind that depending where you go might be a bit funny yeah yeah good point so yes i think overall in terms of the internet that was relatively cheap and pretty fast even on the islands is pretty fast and yeah if you if you are going there for a year then you probably get yourself a a decent apartment there we're looking around about sort of seven or eight hundred euro for a one bed two bed somewhere in split probably a bit less if you're going to somewhere like polar generally austria which is a bit which ran to s pennsylvania is probably the one of the cheapest parts with you've also got the coastline which is a beautiful so there you go also a good thing about doing the d visa in croatia is this quite a good digital in my community yes just lots of meetups c working spaces that type of thing so so yeah especially if you may be new tim traveling around central eastern europe croatia is probably a really nice place to stop yeah definitely definitely okay so i'm gonna choose one now so i've pull out cambodia lee what do you know about move love cambodia we spent about month in cambodia did mainly around sam reap awesome place for c working yeah so many great c working dedicated c working space then also just cafes are really well equipped so like every table will have like two power sockets it's really cost effective as you'd imagine the food is incredible the people are so kind and i think there's a theme that we've noticed traveling is that the countries that have experience recent hardship we don't know i'm sure you do cambodia earlier awful awful for time and and genocide and and yeah horrible ward not so long ago in our experience those places of people are very welcoming very hopeful just excited to see people coming in i love cambodia i think that's actually one place we meant to say two weeks end up staying a month yeah and in terms of internet like we said southeast asia dead easy the what you need to do is when you land just go to any kind of kiosk first of all go go and research because there's a great thing i can't remember but i'll put trump put the link in the show notes there's a great website which essentially takes all of the data options and puts them out it's a wiki for for for prep so you just go into any kiosk ask i don't believe you need a passport for that you do weirdly montenegro but not not in most southeast southeast saving countries by yourself twenty gigabyte that's probably gonna be i don't know somewhere around about ten dollars us dollars and that you know it's fast and far we're on in the middle of like sam reap was was was wasn't remote but still you were getting like eighty gigabyte eighty gigabyte down and up sounds really good and it's lovely because it just so affordable so in terms of kind of your activities you can really really jump into that whether it be the tours or the trips but also just kind of a self care moments so i was getting get my nails done for like five dollars or going from massage for like seven dollars it's a lovely place to kind of have a bit of a working hybrid holiday i think yeah absolutely check the months you go in because like most of southeast asia there are rainy months there's also smoky months in some parts of thailand but we'll come onto that but yeah i think it's definitely somewhere where i would love to go back and work mate two next one austria well we can't say much about stream not spend much time here you know what we can say about austria what it's is the one country in a world that we have driven across in every possible direction east to west west up and down side to side diagonal we've spent more time driving across austria than anywhere else i think yeah yeah and austria is a cool places system i mean the austrians will hate me for saying this but if it's fairly similar to germany in a lot of ways i know sense a humor different as christopher watts pointed out so yeah definitely a good place to go we can't really tell you much about it because women's spent too much time there working but this cool only we spent any time working there no i think we spent a long weekend in vienna yep which was cool and then for christmas markets lovely vienna i'm really a christmas market a couple times there but yeah not really work there but as you imagine austria to be fairly expensive good internet great accommodation options yeah absolutely vibe oh and if you are if you are a digital no with a car and you're and you're in southern or southeast europe and you're going across perhaps you go back to the uk it's a really good place austria street is really good place to stop over because there's some beautiful christmas barker like the jan said we we went went back about two or three years ago we helped back and we took about five days to get back and we just did the christmas market tour she's saw he stopped in some of the most famous christmas markets in europe tang again was that what it's called yeah van w a n g e n oh that was of the best smartest too incredible like they have a special name for it but it's essentially mac and cheese yeah so good but yeah loved it what else you saying late india oh god right just can preface this because i'm not gonna speak highly a bit of of my experience in india and i'm gonna preface it by saying i was so excited to go so excited to go and i got there and it was the biggest culture shock ever and it was also the biggest what what can i say which is polite digestive digestive shock as well i was extremely ill in india so a little little hack you i wasn't looking forward to going to india at all in fact the only reason we went is we were in southeast asia and our friends were going to go for a holiday like taught around thing but we were meeting them in goa so i wasn't so keen but i absolutely loved it i absolutely loved it and people often asked me night as an introvert why'd do you like such busy places i think it's because it's an introvert busy places you can be completely anonymous and detached and you're one of many nobody's really that to focused on on you but i loved it but then i also wonder if and i'm not saying this is an an official hack i'm not a medical professional but when we landed i was full of cold chest infection type thing so i went to a pharmacy just to ask if there's anything they could give me he ended up giving me entire course of antibiotics some really powerful anti inflammatory and who who knows what else so he gave me like four different pills and i was fine yeah i was fine so yeah it might be worth right worth looking at we went to new delhi very busy loved it some the best food had my life go i'm not sure i'd recommend going necessarily but i'm glad we went mh glad we went wouldn't go back corolla and corral corolla which is incredible in the south with all kinds of the the waters and stuff which we got boats on which was cool in terms to work it was fine internet i don't remember being too much for a problem again you can afford quite nice accommodation because it is very affordable so then typically they'll come with little working spaces and things like that we did say in a box or hotel that caught fire what before middle of the night but yes so so india yeah maybe maybe i think i obviously food aside is a cool place and it's huge obviously we've only been into three places so so our experience was that yeah it probably is pretty good for no nomadic but are working remotely but you probably don't wanna be going to a to a cafe i would have thought i would have thought you wanna be working somewhere at home yeah it's very very busy as you imagine so yeah we tended to work out the hotels that we were staying here okay so let's get my pot of dreams and pull out the next one which is yeah we spent a lot times that was another place we got a lockdown in in covid we got lockdown in lithuania first and then we went to s with because the because the rates were low and then within two weeks that was shut out and we were there for six months i think in linear but mean it is a very very cool place it's kinda like a cross between croatia and austria yes because it does border austria so you'll find particularly in the north where we were in mara which is very close to the austrian border and instead of saying duh which they say yes is in in croatian and a lot of the other slavic languages they say yeah there's also lot german words there and it's just a really cool place if you like wine oh my goodness for you and also go to mari then go to because that's the capital cute little sit where i say little city is probably massive but it's just really compact and lovely to wander around or be your thoughts i think sa pennsylvania is the immersed underrated country in europe and i'm still not entirely sure why it hasn't caught on i'm not mad about it because i wouldn't want it to be overrun with tourists but it's one of the most beautiful places we've ever been to the people lovely the food is great because it is it's melting pot like italian creation in german food the wine is incredible mar has the oldest grape vibe in the world which is on the outdoors of their wine museum and on the eleventh of november every year they have a wine festival this day is bigger than new year's eve essentially what happens is at eleven o'clock on the eleventh of november the wine matures from mu into wine and they celebrate it is if i guess yeah like it's it's it's it's new year but like nineteen ninety nine new year the whole city basically just has an all day yeah on all the different wines it's like markets store they'll have all the wine represented that that new wines and and the most incredible food it's such a party and it's it's it's an absolute bucket list experience that people don't know about yeah hundred percent in terms of working there there's loads of c working spaces is very very modern and internet fast accommodation we found was relatively decent very very decent very decent and well priced they've got little they've got audi they've got spa they've got into spa we don't know the difference still don't know the difference between those two and yeah it's you just you could be you could be the us you could be in the uk it could be in australia yeah it's it's very good so yeah highly recommend it's such a diverse country as well that you can literally like we were we were sat in mar city center on a cold but sunny day in february mh and then we drove up to the mountains where there's a ski or maybe twenty minutes yeah and it was three foot now it's the diversity experience you can have in such a small place is incredible and as a no i think the beauty of no is when you go to places you wouldn't typically go otherwise yeah and is top of top the left for me in terms of know my destinations we just gone before we go into the next one what we did on our first leg of our of our no is we call it the second city tour so if we were going to croatia we wouldn't got as zag grab we went to we actually went to wreck re book we should have gone to split so went to instead of going into lu louisiana in knew it went to mari the second city and that is a really great hack if you are traveling around because the second cities are often quite a bit more exciting no that's not true i don't mean they're more exciting the second cities they're all real all them they're more real is the word of like a local rather than just a tourist in capital yes absolutely is it your turn of mine united go lovely just excited did you like a kid at christmas oh luxembourg luxembourg left with f three nights we didn't work beautiful public transport is free yeah fun fact completely free tram train boss all totally free other fun factors is that i think the majority of people who live there are brazilian or something or a portuguese a very big melting part pricey man really really expensive but beautiful definitely stay over a what for one i don't go there for a month yeah pass pass through enjoy poland is my next is next choice i'm sorry i chose that before i should have done my hey hang on there you go poland right well we spent a bit of time in poland we were in place called ro which we called raw claw before we got there because it's spelled w r o cla w ro and it is a cool place looked at loved it around the winter it was like minus twelve at night snow on the ground christmas markets fabulous accommodation really cool little city i'd i'd say it's sort of a the city a bit like i'm gonna go with bristol or yeah not quite as big as manchester nowhere it near as big as london but that was very cool very cool we also spent a month in danced on the north coast one thing i think there's a no matter maybe i'm everyone's different but ali and i are very much summer people we enjoy being warm but if you're traveling europe in winter january february march there's not many places to be warm so we went the opposite when we did this trip and we were like well let's go cold as cold as we can snug fires snow beautiful so we had rot in december and dan february i think fabulous absolutely fabulous the atmosphere the history the tours again the food is wonderful the people are so kind very cost fact we're seen a beautiful apartment dance for i think maybe a hundred and fifty two hundred pounds a week yeah yeah it was it was really really experiment i mean for obviously for short term that's quite this really reasonable and also fun fact christmas they tend to not take anything down all the decoration down for christmas until sort of the end of january so if you if you do enjoy christmas and you're in the uk or somewhere where they take everything down the sixth then go to poland because they little bit hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like kit it is of course brought to you by the hopes spot podcast network and next one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the perspective of a millennial or something i've not been for a very long time but i've never been a millennial never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love phil love phil a fellow millennial who's worked at some of the top companies in tech and then just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley has the best name to be said in the factor voice ash moses barbara dun okay moly i think is your turn slovakia how long we there for it felt like we were there a month forward months yeah this was death this was on our first or first no trip yeah we went to slovakia we did actually go to kat went to brat on the recommendation of somebody we know from brat and we stayed in the small place called devin because we also travel with dogs when we travel europe so if you are traveling with dogs locks we can tell you about that as well but particularly in some places you wanna be in the city center because actually there's more stuff for dogs in the sea center of some cities and there is on the outskirts slovakia we were told not so much we stayed on the outskirts it's in a place called devon which is right on the danube stunning oh my gosh completely just ignored the slovakia isn't it i think in in favor of of kind of check its former other half i think brat does rival prague yeah i agree and i think again as a non obvious place to go if you're if you're trying to decide between frog or barcelona i would say go to b hundred percent again in terms of the prices i would said half the price of of of prague and if i remember slovakia euro and prague k yes yeah yeah and fun fact slovakia if you it's if you wanna say yes you say an i know i know like you know like the irish i know okay also what's great about it's about hour train ride to vienna that he did wanna include a trip to austria but not with the price tag stay in brat trainer over with vienna easily a day trip brat is like an hour vienna an hour to somewhere else i can't remember exactly where it is but a lot of people live in brat and working vienna working this other place that i can't think where it is not bud of passion a current brew is maybe he he's put a bush you got check on the out yeah okay so the next one floss france we've not spent a lot of time in france and in fact to be really brutally honest with you we weren't massive fans of france for a long time where we until until this year yep ali line was we've never voluntarily been to france because we've been for people's birthdays or or weddings or that type of thing and until this year yeah and so this year we came back from the uk for christmas we came across the channel tunnel and by the way if you do that trip and you got a car just just do the train don't do the boats we tried to save money on the boats it is about twice expensive on the on the tunnel but you just turn up and then you just stay in your car watch your stories on netflix and then give you in france whereas the number of times we've had problems with fe so top tip do do do pay the extra bit although don't pay for flex which is which is the way they say you can upgrade and you can says you give you priority and all this kind of things it's a bit like is a bit like you're bit like ryan air priority and it doesn't really give you much because if you turn up early on a normal ticket they should be on a ticket yeah yeah exactly the other great thing about the the quote shuttle rather than the euro style your stars for passengers like foot passengers is normal train the shuttle as you drive onto the train perfect if you travel with dogs could you stay in the car it's thirty minutes and you're straight through whereas with the ferry is your yeah you're looking at least kind of two to five hours depending on where you're faring to and france so if you have an anxious dog like we do it's a much better option absolutely in terms of france we don't we don't know about internet because we just used our uk sim there so i i i i everything else seems a little more expensive than say neighboring germany so i'm i i don't know the best people to ask about france to honest well let's move on this yeah the best place that we we found was actually kind of the north east of france again christmas time so oh and ko which is in the south east on the border of germany if you like wine ko is the place you wanna go okay albania albania well we were there for about two weeks or we yeah maybe maybe three weeks or four weeks because we went to sam we drove through from greece and we came up to sam first which is spelled k s a m i l with the first time i ever saw a five hundred euro note pretty sure the guy was into i'm sure we say import export but five hundred euros note legit a yes i'm not i can say it because i haven't said who it is if i yeah anyway same was interesting probably a bit more developing it was when we were there but then we went to stay in near the capital didn't we were there for about two weeks three weeks yes we did doris yeah doris yeah that was really nice the thing i'd say about the south because i i i i see the south of albania talked about a lot mh has being like the new riviera or kind of the place to go and i and i i was talking to a friend about this you'd who's also been albania i don't really guess it because there's such there's so much development you can't be looking in any direction without seeing cranes and building sites and the sea is beautiful but you just look behind you and you're looking at construction sites yeah i didn't i didn't really get hype no i think it there's there's there's there's a few people on twitter or on well instagram whatever who will say yes you're looking at beautiful pictures of of albania but it's if you just flipped the camera around if would looked like you're in i don't know spain in the nineteen fifties when they're still building stuff one thing about about working in albania was he found that back then i'm not sure it's different now but back then an awful lot of power cuts and power surges it was an awful place to work remotely pete really was the internet wasn't great like you say the power wasn't great no so don't don't take our word for and say don't go to albania but do your research first find the place i'm sure in in the capital it's different but if you're anywhere outside the capital expect slight issues the other thing is talking issues to you're driving through albania it is the craziest of drivers in europe at we've driven through montenegro and all balkan countries their craziest drivers ever you're literally your around corner and there'll be a car overtaking a car and then another car overtaking that car and they'll all be on your side of the road and one of them will probably be the police so yeah just be a bit careful but it is stunning if you were to drive down towards the greek border that last bit there the last hundred k is just stunning beautiful i would say if you can do a albania do it the holiday great i don't think it's to know my destination i agree okay so we're gonna do a quick fire around because we are currently on twenty seven minutes romania always recommend it would never go back had the best time there really great wouldn't go back couple of things about romania number one if you are able to hire a car in flank is a bud pest boo boo cares arrest sorry and hire a car do that top gear trans trans guardian highway do that it is stunning you're also then and i've go up to brush off and s wearer trans pennsylvania trans pennsylvania those are the most amazing places in terms of working we we use the wifi it was okay it was okay but and it's yeah it's it's challenge everything seems to be a bit of a challenge you gotta go out the supermarkets is a bit of a challenge but if you do know any kind of italian or spanish then it's another romantic language which is strange recent in europe so be a few words you recognize yeah go holiday there gibraltar never lived there got married there visited a lot morrison never never lived there never worked there no comment well to be fair we lived maybe about half an hour from gibraltar in in southern spain for about five years and so we used to drive down to gibraltar into a soup supermarket called morrison because they had the tiger bread they had all the stuff we were missing from home and then drive back so yeah yeah it's it's definitely worth we're worth a go but we've not worked there and it's expensive accommodation at the time we were there very dated accommodation and yeah it's it's not someone we necessary recommend talking somewhere we're not necessarily recommend now this place is another beautiful place for holidays it is known by number of different names it is now known as north macedonia or north macedonia but back in the day it was called the formula yugoslavia republic of north macedonia macedonia catchy we went to now obviously sc the capital very cool very crazy very strange it's it's honestly the statues are still wrapped in plastic because they've just come out there just come off the back of the van it's made to look like it's like a hundred years old and it's about eight years old mh also there's a big bridge that takes your across into the the old town the turkish quarter that is it's just weird as you go from the new town to the old town and it is almost completely dry if you like kebabs as in dryers in the alcohol if you like kebabs oh my god you're gonna love it but don't expect to beer there good place for dogs actually and we found a really good like doggy day care in scorpio that peanut went to that was really good we also spent some time in like awkward gorgeous yeah highly recommend like awkward recommend macedonia to be honest i really enjoyed it i thought it was a cool quirky little place don't remember having any issues in terms of working don't don't remember much better either way which poor was fine yeah exactly okay so i would pull out and myanmar oh my this is the four this was if you know him if you're a bit old you might know is be myanmar one of the most incredible experiences of our life there and now you can't go what do you can but it's a bit tasty i don't think you can actually it's under kind of military rule at the moment is isn't after a coup yeah yeah i almost don't wanna talk about because it's really little point because it it's it's so sad that that we can't go anymore but genuinely one of them are most stunning people places and it's heartbreaking wants what's happening there so yeah hopefully that'll will get figured out because one of the most for the most incredible place webinar been and if you go to if it does open up again try and get to nap it's not spelled the same way as the italian way but try to get to nap because it is a beautiful beach resort and it's just people anyway maybe italy talking nap italy we've done a fair bit in the north yep fabulous is a place about an hour from venice is now gonna be our regular stop every year we were there for a week or ten days last this year stunning gorgeous you don't you know italy the food are great there's lowest to do there's lowest to see we've done luca we did peas don't go to sicily in august is the only advice i give you back own that enjoy yeah quick thing about is as you go oh well what because it's hot well yes but if you get a place with air condition which our very first place was and we hired a place for a month lasted four days then went and rented somewhere else because the landlord was weird for a start but also there was no installation on it and know air conditioning genuinely our we used the meat when i were in our kitchen and it was thirty seven degrees in the kitchen so no absolutely can't work there but also the other thing is there's so festivals on that the church bells go continuously and continuously so for august so going in august is beautiful if you're sitting there out there with your lovely you lovely ape roll and you're lucky at the church bells listening the church but if you're trying to be on a zoom call with someone no don't get sicily italy is a good place for no consider because it's one of the few places that you can get long term residency as a third country national without too much hard work and taxes to do it so if you're looking to extend your your normal venture into the into years and italy is a really good option for that to do take a look just a quick point on that you have to apply when you're outside of italy where as opposed to most of the other digital nomads as where you're gonna you can arrive and then apply for it no mad no no nomadic but you can't do that okay so the next one i'll pull out is greece can't really talk to too much about greece you've probably spent a few days in greece but yeah through our holiday we won't yeah so greece don't i'd really don't it we should talk about it because we've not worked there we've only just relaxed there yeah but it is another place it does do i did she'll know my visa resort so again if going to extend greece is another one to look at absolutely so there my replacement there is spain spain you beautiful beautiful beautiful pitch we would live in spain if we could heartbeat yeah don't yeah the only reason we don't is that they're currently tax worldwide wealth which means that it's not it's not feasible for us right now perhaps that will change but yeah and and income taxes is like in handle a series fifty percent then also if you want to be a self employed you have to pay two hundred and fifty euros a month each before you make any money which is why most people go to spain and don't tell anyone they're working in spain just be careful because they're getting onto that but there is a no med visa in turns of internet when we were there it was relatively pricey 4g was a bit pricey but i think it's come down quite a bit since then yeah and when we went back actually went to the north of spain a couple of years could you remember via they had lightning fast internet in our airbnb so yeah think internet's got low lows better now it's fabulous go get the dmv i have a wonderful time don't fall and love too hard because i promise you you can't afford it yes absolutely this honestly we could do an entire while choosing we could do an entire episode quick yeah we have an entire episode of so we're gonna do a quick quick one word fire round yes okay indonesia lu paradise long right don't go bali got a long that's all we need to say it is the most amazing place belgium never at actually worked there it's always been our stopping over i think we've been a holiday there and we've stopped over there but don't only grab work there every we no great chips great chips yeah fries if you're not from the uk yes great fries great waffles if you're into that kind of thing and great mussels oh my goodness aren't peanut g and gotta go go to belgium for the for the seafood and for the wine and for the fries and good beach cheers if you got a dog get on oh peanut loved it sweden we did come the day served didn't work there really enjoyed it we went to m yeah yeah and that was it was cool it was really really cool really really cool again quite expensive as you'd expect for the year for the ba bow tick countries but what the balkan baltic supposed to be a speed right now sorry indonesia gilead islands yes that's all go great for working yes internet pretty quick beautiful beautiful beautiful beautiful place gl go there go to a tiki bar we didn't interview on our podcast from the tiki bar from the guy they're really cool x actor on d as well ireland love island it's it's honestly i'm one of those like annoying americans that like i have irish heritage therefore i feel at home an island went to go away dublin of course and county mayo yeah the west coast of ireland is just an absolute must go spend a lifetime there don't yeah don't go a dublin go somewhere else got the carry go go to the local bar and get a proper guinness and it and we were there and there was a guinness there was fiddle like violin it was brilliant okay oh sorry you got one more no go next wanna pull out stein it's a cheat us keeping this because running in there for either one night or even just one day cool little place to do there's not a lot to do i think you could probably walk it from just from the from end to end in about three hours the actual old town itself is tiny but cool definitely go next what i've got here is lit lithuania now we know a lot about lithuania because we spent four five months lockdown our first lockdown lockdown from what i remember internet was very fast we stayed just outside vi in the city but in a beautiful like townhouse the neighbors were amazing neighbors kept bringing his food in fact when we left they sent us a whatsapp watches v up there but send as a whatsapp message with the what they've made which was like a time to say goodbye and it got like tears and stuff and they were like we miss shooting as up not let lithuania definitely definitely go bit more expensive than some of the neighboring baltic countries but still worth it yeah it's just it's really cool we couldn't we got so lucky with our lockdown it's in the best place i remember people at time saying you're gonna come back to the uk it's like why g four ten it's in a country the really low covid way we were right back on onto a lake so we could walk the dogs we were ten drive into the city center which was only locked for six weeks where where am i going and actually couldn't because the borders eventually closed loved it also the there's a what's it called a spit oh yes that's like a really thin bit of land that we went to that's kind of separated by the scene then a lagoon mh and is actually connected with russia yes incredible the best smoked fish ever had in my life san dune like i've never seen before it's like i have a movie huge fan of lithuania love it definitely go lithuania okay speed around ireland you just said ireland or do i write it down twice la la l a o s and quite sure to say it beautiful place a very french yes it was colonized by french really good place we're only there for maybe three or four days it and we don't think we worked there did we did we a week we went to a coworker working oh dang that was that yeah that was now brilliant food we went too wang bank brilliant food and we went up a mountain to watch the sunrise sunset at the top of a monastery pool yeah temple yes stone food great they have a they've it's it's it's a if you're imagine an asian food but with like french influence they have like these sort of like roast sausage things that are just incredible it's like two of the best cuisine in the world mixed together and it does not disappoint incredible night markets as well yes we actually went to there's a little island in the middle of the me kong mh that runs sri wang bank that is only there during the summer periods it gets flooded in the winter and every year the locals rebuild it and it's a they'll cucumber form so you have to go and get a boat over it and they have beers and cucumber salad and that's it but it'll be the best coldest big you've ever had the best cucumber salad you ever had and we just sat there for hours isn't were you're just watching watching the sunset so yeah fabulous beautiful anyway thailand we haven't got time we haven't got time yes yeah god way we went to thailand was just incredible the islands the and the only thing is that some of the islands when we went back in seventeen eighteen the internet wasn't brilliant i'm sure that's changed now i'm thinking of that one where we literally had our place on the sand and that was brilliant but if you go to colon to that's kinda like the digital no island and then from there your fig up find people and travel with them yes absolutely brilliant if you've never been south before and your additional know my talent is a place to stop yeah maybe avoid chang mai just because chang mai is in the north and it's very ex patty the kids love it oh i don't know why because you just what you what you see old ben walking coming around the corner with like two young girls in their hand and it's just weird chia mai when the places where people will stay as no mad for months like they'll do the visa hot where you can get like a three month vegan and then i'll leave for a week and then come back and get another three months yeah to chang mai rest and amazing okay i've got netherlands unfortunately but i don't think we can tell you much about that we've stayed a few times very nice beautiful lots of bikes we didn't partake in any of the activities well i didn't when i went to any the activities that are there you know the one i'm talking about but otherwise we lovely place very similar to belgium was talking great chris market yes fabulous christmas ba chris's market in europe yes australia loved it we did sydney we did melbourne a slightly different experience for me because i was there with my client from australia so i very much loved it and they helped us around seeing things and in getting the immersed out of it yeah i think every know with has go to australia don't they yeah of course you do of course you do next one malta now we only went the holiday so unfortunately you i can't tell you about that but our internet was pretty decent there it's a really cool place it's kinda kinda got a weird sort of like italian drug spanish vibe and it's definitely worth going really good just don't go and get the rabbit which is the local delicacy i we like rabbit but it was just a bit disappointing if you're not keen on no but wanna look at x expat but don't have any language multi andrew gibraltar that we both talked about really good options for that so do take a look particularly if you're in the gaming industry if you're in the gaming industry you'll already know about malta and gibraltar anyway montenegro grow love it if we didn't live in bosnia we live montenegro yep great internet although you do need it as i said before you do do need a passport to go and get your sim card in montenegro for some very strange reason crazy crazy drivers c is beautiful but you probably don't wanna go to c and stay there because it'll expensive in off season but yes montenegro grow absolutely stunning just be careful for the drivers got talking of rabbit hungary there's my joke we've only ever a done to past yeah yeah i really liked it you weren't a king where you i thought it was okay i thought it was okay i think we just caught the back of several eastern european countries and so it was getting i hate to say in a little sammy but it's just it's a very cool place and if you like the likes of prague and brat i would imagine you'd love b rest bud pass sorry don't get it else yeah i really liked it and again i mean we i'm a big fan of christmas in christmas market so you might not be surprised that we've been to a lot of them if you're looking at like an alternative christmas market tour and you don't wanna do too much of germany the obvious ones bud past christmas market is incorporated the entire city is basically one big christmas market and because it's cold and crisp and yeah it's very very cool i believe you get black current wine there i think is the maid is a predominant wine and cool ash so next we'll pulled out is portugal we only spent a little bit of times time let me be about monte to portugal pack week was only a week yeah week in lisbon list is cool place it's where all the nomads hang out yeah i don't think we need sent about that because if you're ever thinking of working remotely then you'll have already thought of portugal check yeah do you know what there are many additional no hotspots that are hugely overrated overhead i would never recommend them bali there are others like prague they're are totally worth the hype prague is awesome cool go they they split up the the location into like prague one two three four five six seven eight etcetera prague four was very cool we stayed there for a month and we went to prague six for a month as well so basically the tip is to go slightly outside because the the trains or the tram taking the center out so quick and so cheap so i definitely look at prague and if you do try with a dog prague it's probably the most dog friendly place ever been to so all public transport dogs can go on there's no need for muzzle or any that nonsense restaurants well let them in we had a really nice restaurant for my birthday took the dog with us pubs and cafes at absolutely fine so yeah if you if you travel the dog prague is a must and of course there is a hundred million c working space in yes there are next one comes up is bulgaria now we have to cook talk quietly because we were in bulgaria bulgaria right now bulgaria is a cool place it's definitely one i would rather be on holiday in than necessarily working in but then we are in rural bulgaria right now south of if you've heard of a place called has we're probably about an hour from the greek border so yeah i mean it's cool definitely come and have a look at bulgaria it's like we said the other week they are not their head when they say when they mean no as they go that what do i mean yeah so what you'd go yes and not your head and they actually mean no not the head and there's also lots of stalks yes cool things doing bulgaria go to the black sea very very different coastline go to a place called p huge amounts of history beautiful beautiful place we haven't been severe but heard with things sorry i was distracted yes absolutely so i'm just looking now and what we're gonna do is cheat i think leanne we're gonna take out the rest of them and just pick out the ones we wanna talk about because you still got about four in there five in there six okay so i'm gonna start off we got some you here we were there for a couple of days it's beautiful place really cool latvia f went on holiday back in the day to latvia for you yeah it didn't work for me the didn't work me of those places but both lovely places switzerland we stayed with our friends in switzerland just a little bit of a cheat because we didn't actually pay for anything because andrew and funny is his missus were wouldn't let us pay for anything but it was it's a beautiful beautiful place but it's not somewhere you go if your budget conscious what you got i've got denmark we only went in on holiday there but absolutely loved it indonesia bali i think we've said that's a hard no no malaysia we said in k for a couple of days again i don't think we were working today were but obviously we're in k so the internet is incredible there's loads of places to work it's all good serbia spent a month in be grade i love be grade yes be grade is one of my most favorite cities in europe it's dirty it's big it's gritty it's noisy it's everything you want a capital city to be great shopping beautiful parts gru parts dive bars fancy restaurants so much diversity absolutely loved it only place in europe we did get a little bit of beef with somebody local logo tax driver asked to get out once they realized we were british but then we did bomb the ever a loving shit out of them so as nato so you did so if you're british or american there's a small chance you'll experience a little bit of hostility but that was the only bit that we did and the vast when everyone else was completely lovely to and if anyone's under thirty that it's not even on their mind i don't think no and also it's really really big on tech like the the europe's silicon valley is kind of like in in serbia yeah so lots to know much actually even weren't working i've got germany written down in which we've never i actually you it's another transit country us we've only ever stopped over on the way to somewhere but it just germany it's gonna be efficient and amazing and everything's gonna work and it's also gonna be delightful weird and it's huge yes always takes us like for two days to drag across germany it easy there's a lot of germany a lot of germany my last one is vietnam got mixed feelings about it wasn't our favorite place to go no we stayed in hanoi that was really busy so we went down to we were there over chinese new they were so that was busy and then we went down to the middle one which is called way hue that was cool yeah like that and then my favorite part and they went to h you in the capital very smart if you'd it's like bangkok it's just a really progressive what it doesn't have what we didn't find there was the grit of say the chinatown in bangkok where you felt like you could have been coming in nineteen eighteen would be the same we found mine hanoi yes found annoying but for the obvious reasons so that's out lia if you got any anymore i've got one more bi h west and he the governor that's our home that's why we should be right at home i i don't think we need to say anything more other than it's the place of all fifty countries we traveled to where we'd actually wanna spend the majority of our time people are great it's a very diverse country in terms of its people and it's it's landscapes and it's everything really internet is decent very affordable a growing number of backpack there i'd say well the necessarily nomads don't not come across many nomads so there's not really a community there as there would be in some like be grade yeah but it's a very beautiful country and there's a place in terms of if you are no it's a great hideout from s if you you're get close on your s days because it's non you and non s very cost effective you'll be finding easily places to stay for probably like ten euros night mh you'll probably get entire apartments for twenty euros as a night yeah it's it's heaven we live in moscow or just outside hurts the governor is our favorite sarajevo is a very cool city lots of history there's a film festival there this week it's getting more and more in terms of our events and stuff like that but it's a great place to including your hopping because you'll get from croatia to montenegro grow to bosnia to mac to serbia probably within a week if you wanted to go that fast yeah and so and if if you're cut more of if you're more on the intrepid side of remote work digital no mad traveling back backing then go to bosnian now before or battery technically hurts the governing a one we prefer but go to her to go boss hope it's going now because give it ten years i reckon it'll be part of the eu you and it'll you it'll just be like oh yeah yeah we've been there whereas now it's cool really cool there's oil train trails wine trails keep mentioning wine talk to which i think i've run out of my wine so should we should we wrap things up my love we should so from all of those for somebody who is maybe new to no or on the first no nomadic experience we'll look at what are maybe our top three places we would recommend to nomads yep i'm gonna go straight in with prague or that would be mind due to this it's the perfect starting point it's gonna be very friendly introduction to central eastern europe as slows there in terms of community so you'll meet other nomads it's a great city i think it's nice it's a nice starter yeah okay well in that case then i'll come in with so where did you just say you just said prague prague i was just gonna say thailand because if you prague if you like some city vibes and european weather thailand if you just wanna sit on a beach somewhere you just can't go wrong in thailand i don't think well you can you can go to that place like i wanna say pay papa papa tire oh yes yeah there there are certain places which are built for people who've got other tourist intents in intention yes so that's that's our h chan was our favorite chan yes it's in our opinion it we like we'd prefer over other islands which are a bit more developed yes number two i i would say i would say italy mh and it's not necessary because it's my favorite place i think there's lots to explore i think it's more that if you are no and you catch the book and want to live abroad yeah it's one of the few places where you can get a long term visa fairly easily so it's probably good to know if that's even an option for you early on and you could probably spend easily six weeks in italy have a fabulous time well weirdly my i couldn't decide between s and croatia which is basically that's the route from italy i would probably say go for s even though i don't think they have a no visa right now but this i'm seeing them promote a lot more on google news and all this kind of stuff so i'm i suspect they will soon out of the two croatia or s you can't go wrong i think if you're a bit more official first time perhaps got to croatia if you've done don't no nomadic before maybe try or just go into a month in mara in s pennsylvania and see if you love it and stay if you don't then go to a in croatia i would then staying on kind of the city vibe i would say be grade i think it's a city that you would yeah it's an experience you won't to forget particularly if you are a bit younger it's very known for its kind of nightlife and party scene i think be grade will be one of the coolest life experiences you'd have a hundred percent and my last one is quite obviously spain if you can go go just slightly anne said don't fall too hard because she's not she's not the best place to live full time and if there's only one thing you take away from this entire round of a conversation please the love of report we stay together do not to go to bali sorry bali see you next week bye mate

i recently was told about an employee who was asked by their boss to check emails every single day whilst they were on annual leave and the justification apparently it wasn't fair to expect their colleague to decide what was urgent so they did every day of their two week holiday day they check their inbox and here's where it gets even worse one day they didn't check for twenty four hours only twenty four hours and a colleague sent multiple angry emails about not getting a reply even though they acknowledge that that person was on holiday so if you're listening to this and thinking that sounds familiar or at least it's not as bad as my workplace then trust me this episode is very much for you i am a clinical psychologist so that is my training and now i specialize in mental health at work i came to that work really because of a lot of experiences in my own clinic people coming to me with stories about work worked as a huge anchor in life and it can really support us or can you join us that was doctor elaine smith doctor lane worked with hundreds of people trapped in exactly these toxic work cultures but she's also discovered something very powerful the problem isn't just bad bosses or unrealistic expectations is that we've accidentally trained our own brains to be addicted to checking and she knows exactly how to break that addiction doctor elena has crack the code on how to actually disconnect properly not just the surface level leave your laptop at home advice but the deep psychological shifts they'll let you genuinely rest and come back stronger and with your summer holidays just around the corner her timing could not be more perfect because the science is really clear proper rest doesn't just make you feel better it makes you dramatically more productive when you do return to work hello and welcome to truth lies and work the award winning podcast where behavioral science meets to workplace culture we are brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professional knows my name is lia i'm a chart occupational psychologist my name is a i am a business owner today we're going to discover why your brain is literally wide to check emails on holiday i know how annoying also gonna look at the exact words to use in your out of office message the ones actually work and doctor elaine strategy for dealing with colleagues who expect you to be available twenty four oh we're also gonna hear from a listener whose workplace culture was so toxic around holidays is gonna make you question everything about modern work expectations so we're gonna join doctor elena after very short break you don't become the world's most valuable women's sports franchise by accident it's angel city football club did it with a little help from hubspot yeah and when they started data to was housed across multiple systems sound familiar hubspot completely unified their website their email marketing and their fan experience in just one platform this allowed their small team of three to build an entire website in just three days the results nearly three hundred and fifty new setups ups a week and three hundred percent database growth in just two years visit hubspot dot com to hear how hubspot can help you grow better i am a clinical psychologist so that is my tri and now i specialize in mental health at work and i'm particularly interested in leadership and the impact that leaders can have on mental health both their own but also of their team and the little changes they can make to make a a massive impact if think work as a huge anchor in our life and it can really support us or it can really drain us it's such a big aspect of our our lives isn't it i mean it's i mean i guess now at the time of year but we don't want it to be as big and i suspect of lives we're looking to take those holidays looking to that rest in and recovery time but with that does come a bit of anxiety from people around that has that effectively or how to manage their expectations of their where plays and their family and what that looks like if we just start at the beginning because even as a self employed person and my own boss can take time off and i want to but i still find it really hard to switch off why is that well i think because we're always on you know i think obviously technology out as well as i'm an advocate for it i think there's lots of great things about it it definitely helps me to do my job for sure i'm definitely not anti technology but the same time it means i mean we can book a holiday we can order a shop and we can do our work all from this machine in our hands so no wonder it's hard to switch off not only for work but also just in life switch off from friends to switch off from media so yeah we're we're always on and that you know there's some statistics i don't know exactly but how many notifications for example beginning day how that's training us really so i think gets no wonder find it really hard to switch up i often say to people it's not like the olden days where you got from work and you didn't hear anything about work until the next day and i must say what i was thinking about doing this today thinking i do appreciate grown up in that age where i can remember that even though i was quite young at the time and i have that as a as a sort of baseline whereas people going up younger generation today don't have that they did not live through a time where actually you could properly switch off and so yeah i think that's really important i guess my question is we want to be engaged in our work if we find meaningful fulfilling work that's really good for us i cause you really good for our well being on mental health but where does that engagement in work tip into unhealthy he was a boundary between being attached or work in a healthy way and in an unhealthy way i like this question i think it's about obviously we want to fulfill a role and that if we even think a bit more black and white like watching on your contract what do you have to do for your work and i guess a lot of people will always do a little bit more than that some people might do a little bit less than that but i guess it becomes so you've got your responsibility you're meeting and all your goals you're doing what you're meant to do to get paid for but it becomes unhealthy when it becomes more like a comp to to keep working or that need to keep doing more and more and more and the guilt that comes with not working you know so i think it's really about balance and it and it becomes unhealthy when it leaks over into other parts of our life like say family time for example or not doing hobbies as much or whatever so there's less balance when know there's something wrong what's driving that what what why am i failing actually detach from work we know that obviously we're we're primed for it right so we have phone everywhere so it's not like you have to charge like open up the laptop and wait for the emails to come in you just have your phone it's about anxiety obviously it's driven by anxiety but also if we think about what happens when you do check okay so every behavior there's a reason behind it as we know how are you rewarded by checking right so what happens is you you feel the anxiety you check and then we speed in short term relief because often were thinking what f what f if you know as that you know as somebody replied to that or it's a worry because it's usually driven by there's something that happened or often it as maybe not always so when we check we get short term relief and obviously that's a word for us doesn't last very long hence it's short term wait some time and then anxiety builds again and then we check so i think it's partly habit but definitely that reward we get because we want to feel really we wanna get rid of that feeling but by checking all the time we're actually just be in that anxiety what's a better habit to form and deal with that anxiety than the checking pay is and well say or talk about if you're if you're on holiday i do recommend for for some people just getting rid of the apps or the notifications for that time or disable them or whatever right because temptation is difficult okay so i think that's part of it the other part of it is so that's a practical way in terms of our psychology in our mental health it's about noticing here we go here we go anxiety i feel you again i feel this again but what we know about anxiety is that if we look at on a curve it has to peak somewhere and once it peaks of course then it will reduce but we have to stay with it so in a a way we have to like ride the urge and find something else to do wow that inside it's gonna might be gonna walk it might be listening to music just talking to some disconnect him with somebody probably doing something off the phone ideally and in that time while that anxiety is peaking and then it will reduce it can't people knock up and up it will reduce so i think it's about doing that you can say it's a a distraction technique but that's okay short term to let us because we're trying to retrain ourselves and form a new habit i like that so if if somebody's got a a holiday coming up in a couple of weeks time would you recommend start setting those boundaries now so as you say maybe remove those apps from your home you can only check on your laptop not doing it and non working hours will that help them when we are on on holiday to detach absolutely it's about practice it's a bit about confidence as well you know the building that confidence that you you don't need to check all the time and it's trying something new and ideally it's good to try that something new before there's enough to think about going on holiday which is part of that as well there's enough physical practical preparation without sort of adding in so need to do a little bit of work before the holiday and just to yeah to prepare give yourself the best chance there's so much time effort and money spent on a holiday yet a lot of people say don't even know if it's worth it which i think a real shame you know it's a dreadful shame we've come to that so i really want to help people to try and really embrace the holiday we mentioned that we can practice the not checking during what after work hours before we go on holidays you said they're deciding what emails you would look for and potentially open is there anything else that we can do to to prepare for a holiday so we are yeah setting ourselves up for success yeah definitely so there's a couple of things there's doing a handover like if there's somebody else that's gonna be taking care of your work or i mean i not it's sort of rare that there's somebody actually doing your job perhaps when you're away but somebody who's taken care of any emergencies or something like having a a chat with them you know it's a bit of passing in the baton isn't that because when you're away you'll pass the back to them and vice versa so when there way you'll do the same okay so it's it should be shared in that way but definitely about having a chat with them and just making it clear if there's anything a b or c you want them to look out for to be very clear and this is all about clarity as well setting that boundary and then i also talk about setting a really good out of office email and because that is your own personal boundary plan if you like and it also really helps to set expectations so it's been really clear in your if epstein don't be out with block of emails but you know something people will say they're on the beach you can inject personality at it's a very personal choice but one that really works for you see an i'm away from the state until this state for example and making it clear that on your return i think this is the really important part on your return buying yourself a little bit of time you could even say i'm likely to have lots of emails on his term but i do hope to get back to you within two business days three businesses days whatever it is you know and being really realistic about that because that really helps us to be like okay i've told people exactly what they can expect from me and i need to stick to that it's actually well in mind gets quite unprofessional to say i won't be i won't be looking at or replying to emails on the leave and then actually sort of breaking in that you've already stated what you're going to do and what you're not going to do and then you kind of break your own rule so i think it's really important that we set it very clearly and we stick to it how does that impact the person receiving that is it gonna negatively impact their view of them how much they trust them whether they wanna work with them can it have that much an impact i don't mind about to having maybe that much of an impact but i guess i maybe it's on my psychologist i gone oh you said your drunk look i wonder if i wonder what was driving you to look at your emails i know maybe not everybody's gonna think like that and but i would certainly be wondering oh but you said this now the person actually getting a reply might be happy okay this is another part of it because they're one on but the important thing here is when we set the boundary what we do is we're actually training other people but not to expect to reply this is like opera condition and action so even if we reply to somebody one in ten times on a sunday night bills but oh but my elaine replied that some night before so i'll i'll give it a go again you know so we are we're we're training other people their behavior by how we behave and if we just if we stop and they're getting never getting a reward from emailing us at those times or have an expectations of us they all stop that behavior that's how that's how we work it's just that it's not it's not instant but it's it is important to remember we we do have that ability and what can we do to to help ourselves stick to those boundaries again i mean especially if you're a leader it can feel really really difficult a business owner especially i see it in who you know wanna check in and make sure things okay how do they set of hard boundary and and stick to it i think people do genuinely trying to tricky but what they need to remember is why they're doing that because if they don't get proper we think about if we don't get proper rest what's going happen if we have that chronic stress all the time it often leads the mental health or even physical health problems so we must take we must be and even read about rest read about rest and productivity okay because think that's quite a motivating factor so that can help to stick to the boundaries and and sometimes if people find it really hard to do it just for themselves so though i would always advocate that's the most important part first i'll say look and this has worked when i've worked with leaders before say you're not just doing it for your actually do it for your family as well you know and when they can see that sometimes for people i hope whether that's been a little bit of a light bulb moment to go okay because it's not just affecting you as an individual leader affect him whoever you might be with or whoever else is in your life and and that can often help people to shift and then when they do change the behavior they reap the pair national rewards as well which hopefully it means that it's actually easier to continue to do that for themselves as well and have that self compassion like you deserve to have a arrest we deserve to have a break you know it's not know position means that they need to keep on working there's there's actually no benefit to that rest with so many benefits but sometimes it helps to look at like the science about the depends on the person sometimes it helps the bank well who else has benefited them from me sticking to those boundaries so doctor elena is just laid out how to set boundaries needs to be really clear about what you will and won't do and stick to it and also don't break your own rules but i have to ask you out what if people are thinking this all sounds great in theory but my boss is never gonna accept this i totally understand that fear and at the risk of being a typical psychologist it really will depend it's gonna depend on your organization it's culture and the behaviors of the leaders around you and that's important elaine mentioned that leaders who model this behavior actually give other people the permission to do the same so look for that almost like someone has to go first and hopefully that's your leader and it's so important because there's science behind rest and recovery it turns out there's actual research on what proper rest does for your brain and your performance when you come back and we're about to hear some statistics that might change how you think about your holiday forever so after this very short break we're gonna rejoin leanne and doctor lane and discover exactly why rest makes you more productive we're gonna hear that shocking story from a listener about the toxic workplace plus doctor elaine will give us her strategy for the inevitable return to work inbox chaos don't go anywhere hey millennials i have got a really great podcast recommendation for you if you have not listened to no straight path hosted by ashley men baba then i think you're really gonna like it it is of course brought to you by the holds spot podcast network and this one is right up your street if you like to hear the real stories behind those shiny resumes and that end endless positive social media posts and fancy job titles because actually human utilizes success from the perspective of a millennial or something i've not for a very long time but i've never been a never been a millennial love i love it because it is packed with actual conversations and it brings diverse and important voices to the world like in the episode with phil ag we love it love phil a fellow millennial who's worked at some of top companies in tech and land just happened to start the number one marketing podcast in the uk so if you like honest conversations about careers inspiration and achieving success then you have to listen to no straight path wherever you get your podcasts oh it ashley also has the best name to be said in the extract voice ash barbara dun it's injured what you said there in terms of sometimes people understanding the impact pattern and understanding the why can be really powerful so what do we know about rest and recovery and what does that mean for our future productivity performance well rest obviously there's are different types of breath but obviously rest means a new behavior is like a a change of behavior is also that's saying that there's changes as good as a rest right so even in that way i think you're doing something different rejuvenate us right having a change of pace and a change of routine in itself but what we do know is that rest boosts productivity obviously it helps soothe their nervous system it has always sort of mental health and physical health benefits the way i kind of would overall describe rest or being in a different if you're born on holiday so that been in a different environment is that it gives us different perspective unlike we can spend so long in our own little bubble and and we just see life from a very similar lens each day but i think going in holiday or having a break is almost like zooming out of that and people find like they're are more creative so rest also leads to creativity people have ideas sometimes people think about what we're doing with my life you know in a positive way so i think yeah there are so many benefits of of rest and when we're when we're truly rested we can then come back and be our peak performance which is also what we want because companies spend a lot of money on annual leave you know it's a very costly business and we're and we know and in the uk in particular anyway people get generally get quite generous holiday you was just costing a lot of money so we want people it's when when you know we want people to feel fully rested because the organization benefits as well as the individual what i think is you know it's hard to argue i wanna go back to what you're saying about about rest because i think there's a bit of a myth that rest means lying on a beach rest means sleeping in late i know there's plenty of people that that i have in my life that was say i i can't i can't just sit still i can't that's just not that's just not me what does rest look like really physical rest and emotional rest of even spiritual rest and there's all these different types of rest and it's about what fills us up really so you could say going in a hobby you know it's rest it's it's rest from our usual stress or our usual life i guess it's like disconnect and from that part and reconnect them with what tells us at and a lot of people i work with are definitely not the sun that all day they're they're busy doing people and they get really restless and they get easily bored so it it needs to be things that appeal to us but not but things that we want to do versus things we feel obligated to do as well i think that's an important distinction because sometimes what can happen is people can be off and say oh i'm going to completely do a deep clean of the house or something which for some people actually is quite rest in soothing but for others it isn't and this is an important point as well it's very individual what we find rest and yeah so it's it's not always lying about and it's not and it's not always been still for a lot of people it's actually the opposite of that but it we feel relaxed i think that's the most important point we feel relaxed and we feel like we're being energized by what we're doing and it often that's not the same as what we're doing every day and what we're doing at work i love to cook that's my resting in recovery activity so i start to get restless this when i'm in a hotel for too long and i can't cook i know a loves coding and i don't get it because it feels like work because he's sat in front of a community it was not up to us side but i guess when it yeah when it feels that that person feels obliged to do something or or this is the other one and need to be productive and often that's fed by people who might experience traits of perfection on as well or because as you mentioned this about societal society's views on rest which is often that's lazy or the word lazy accompanies it and then people feel like i have to do something productive but if we reed educate people about what actual means i think they would use rest time different this actually came from a a listen to the show who who really wanted this this message go ahead to get this type of advice so they were saying would love to know where the deal colleagues who expect that you will check emails whilst and leave took examples come to mind the first time i went on annual leave at my last place i was basically told to check my emails daily the justification was that it wasn't reasonable to expect my secretary who also had access to my inbox to decide whether something was urgent and i need to be passed on or could wait another time on leave there was a day when i didn't check my emails in those twenty four hours a colleague sent multiple slightly piss emails about not me not replying even though they acknowledged hours on holiday i mean it's it's shocking example isn't and it it's shocking examples but i mean in this in this type of culture when we we're seeing these types of behaviors from colleagues what what can you do is an individual to train set that boundary tricky i will just say listening to that i mean that's obviously deep organizational cultural problems there and and and those individuals are probably just doing what they could to try and manage the enormous stress but that also doesn't make it okay but that's probably how we can understand it and but yet i guess in those situations there i'm must say it's i'm not saying it's easy but sometimes if we just stick to the facts and just state to people like know your boundaries know when you're gonna stop replying know when you're gonna have your whole leave and that you're not telling them i won't be you know have it on your out of office explicitly in bold of you must i will not be checking my emails if we're clear with people they actually do prefer that and and there's a saying as well that people who you know who don't respond well to boundaries often need them the most right so it's a tough it's a tough sell sometimes because so you're gonna set boundaries in your mind we could probably expect some people won't like it initially but that's actually all alright you know it's part of the process and that's part of the reason we need to set them with these people really really need them and then one time in the future they might be actually to be grateful for it so it's about just rip sticking into that like not trying to get emotional with these colleagues and being very matter of fact as much as we can be and not getting sort of drawn in because that's a lot of their stuff isn't it that's a lot of their fears and their anxiety that belongs to them but we can get quickly get drawn in into the emotion of that and wanting to be lights and wanted to be helpful in all of that doesn't really help anybody so we just have to kinda stick to it and be very very strict and what's easier said than done but it's very possible and just be clear you know what bernie brown says clear kind unclear is un kind and i think that's another way of thinking about all of this we just tell people what we're going to do and what we're not going to do and stick to it that's say i would almost summarize that you know that's the best we can do for people and obviously help train them as well that even if they send us a hundred emails on a sunday night for a hundred weeks we're not gonna respond what tuesday somebody thinking here i'd like to set a hard boundary lane but i i'm am i can fired for him and but certainly hope somebody prefer for i can i can understand what you're saying about this fear what's going to happen if i do this or if do that i would turn it around slightly and say leader is not just by title so whether you're leader or not there's there's there's someday above you you can lead in this behavior you can be the one set the tone because of what i guarantee is that once you set that boundary others will follow when they see it especially if you are in a leadership role there's definitely there's definitely something about being able to set the boundary and thank you know there's other people who are gonna go thank you that's so glad they did that because i want to do that now i'm a bit i can do that when i go on the holiday or just in general to say i'm not not replying in the evenings or at weekends so actually i think you you set the toe eagle you make a decision you do make a decision and you make a decision to commit to this as well and remember that you're not in anything wrong you're you're entitled to your time outside of work and it's only because of how societies has changed that this has become a problem never really used to be a problem we've kind of created that so we need to fix it and to be made to feel pressure in any way that you have to do something when you don't want to do well what would we say to children about that you know we'd say what you have to say no so we can think about it in that way as well and and sometimes you mean you could say that that can cross a line into bullying and harassment as well you know what i mean what like where those boundaries are but that that that can be how it can leave the person that your listener for example just to felt terrible you know receiving that when we're not doing anything wrong they're actually you know trying just to have annual leave and being met with this sort boiling and kind of rage of wherever it was discontent from the organization rather than there's got anything wrong you want it's just absolutely toxic i we do need to fix that we do need to do something about that and as you say it i guess you know it's that understanding that this will be uncomfortable when you probably will get some back in if you you know most people wanna do a great job and be there for the colleagues and support them in the best way that they can but as you say once once those boundaries start to be reinforced through your own behavior it's gonna have an impact on on the other person's behavior isn't it that one of keys start to happen if they see it yeah so i'm not getting any reward from constantly contacting no matter what they say if they ramp up the language which kind of what your listeners when saying like you know ramping up the language the emotional pool not fair on secretary that kind of thing and they no matter what they say or do you're not replying people will stop that behavior will become extinct that's what happens it's a fact but we must set to it and remember that fat if you if you if you reply one and five or ten or twenty times that's a very strongly enforce for people so it's not just about the volume it's about not doing at all you know and we have a personal responsibility in that as well so sometimes i would say well if you do keep replying they're going be emailing them the okay they shouldn't be emailing yet if our respects use but we have we need to pick personal responsibility as well and i was thinking about this to you about as a clinical psychologist part of our training there's obviously a lot about boundaries because of the therapeutic relationship it's really important we have very strict boundaries so i think that's partly where i come at this from as well and but what that means is it's completely non negotiable for us like there's there's no negotiation with that so for example client emails me a weekend or whatever i will never reply and never apply and that's to keep very strict healthy therapeutic boundaries i think that is extremely important don't get me wrong and and i think this is helpful too i know people for some people in life there's that flexible work and they might do emails at night one or two hours at night because they have to do the school run or something we want a world where it's individual and it's flexible what i would say for that is you can schedule your emails don't get them sent at eleven pm right need to schedule them for working and time now that i think that's okay and i know a lot of people with family or catering commitments do that but make sure your output is in work in ours that's what i would say so you can manage that to best suit you and to train other people yeah i think this is tipping into into bullying harassment type behaviors and setting these boundaries is the only it's the only way to survive this environment i think ultimately in know long term it's it's it's not it's eaten unless they go through a court change themselves it's not gonna get any bastard book boundaries sounds like survival at this point unfortunately in a way it's got to that point but yeah for longevity for protect own health you we think of stress hormones and the damage they can do yeah we need boundaries to put a line under work and to and fill up her life with with stuff that's not work which is really important as well so that we kinda i mean i know work can be varying levels of importance to people but a lot of people are work with work is a lot of their life you know it spells up a lot of their identity a lot of third reason for being but that becomes bigger the less the less other stuff we have in our life so the less time we spend with family and friends with less time to do bobbi you know we can almost inflate work to a bigger sense of importance by having less in our life so that's another thing i think it's probably another episode but i think that's important in as well i know we've already teased this story but honestly it's kinda kinda shocking isn't it shocking so shocking and doctor lo just called that behavior exactly what it is absolutely toxic and honestly hearing that listener story about being sent angry emails whilst you're on holiday it's hard not to get work doc about that for them it really really is and as we just heard boundaries are survival at this point so this isn't about being polite or professional anymore this is about protecting your mental health from genuinely harmful workplace culture exactly and the psychology she explained chest kiss even if you reply just once in ten times you're actually reinforcing that behavior that is conditioning in action you are literally training people to harass you but here's the important thing even if you do set those boundaries even if you survive the pushback there's still that moment of truth when you come back from holiday that inbox that anxiety how do you actually prepare for that without ruining the last few days of your break i think we've all been there so this is where doctor alain gets really practical i mean for people listening who were like okay i've got some good tips here some good things that i can do before i go whilst i'm on holiday there is the inevitable read reentry that going back into work that day one that inbox how do you how do you prepare for that on sunday night monday monday morning how do you prepare for that and how do you deal with with what you're walking into get there ideally what i would reckon would you actually prepare for that before you even go on holiday because you block out the time for looking at your emails when you get back so also depends what your rule is but wherever possible you don't have some things we can be overly optimistic and think after a holiday i'll sort that after the holiday i'll sort that after holiday and you've got your being you come back and you think i really wish pre holiday me had done that task right so what we don't mind to do is overload all that stuff at once when we get back because it's not gonna you're not gonna notice win from that can feel like there's a precaution to fill up the diary so block out at least what depends at least that morning that you get back to us to prioritize and that's what you're gonna do it you're just going to prioritize your your emails and you're gonna look at them and you're gonna see you could maybe grade them or and see what really needs attention a lot of them as we know probably you know sort of email to everybody or your cc then or it's not even that important alright so the number is not that important it's more of what you have to engage with so try not to get en gross in the number of emails you have try to work out how many you actually need to reply to it's probably quite a small percent at ji probably five or ten percent and then yes so block out the time remember what you said in your out of office about how long you were gonna take to reply and resist the urge for all to be immediate or feel like or feel like everybody knows that you're back everybody in the whole company knows that you're back and they're all waiting for your reply because they're not you know there there might be one or two but they're not all things back today back today that's probably more an our mind and just have that goes you know you're probably not gonna reach inbox you but what you're gonna do is you're gonna just manage it have a bit of perspective as well like if it all becomes a lot and you become feel bit overwhelmed or anxious to think these are only emails like really well we need to zoom out sometimes and check ourselves and go these are only emails if someone was really urgent and be passed to somebody else and that's probably been dealt with and you'll probably goes through an email like that and see it's actually been resolved and you do see that thanks see that's actually what happens if something becomes urgent that's what should happen anyway so yes it's about taking the time and not feeling that you're in this massive rush because you've already set yourself up before your holiday you've got this at least this spill morning and you've already told people it might take two or three business days whatever you state so i think the preparation comes comes quite time before you go back i i think it's so important isn't it you know suddenly that i'll will always saying and and i have now absorbed it as well alright he's also say how can i be as kind as possible to future out so and i kinda think they're saying like how can i be as kind of possible future and i should probably the dishwasher before i go to bed the in future i love that in the morning is it come into a cli kitchen no exactly that yeah and i think we do have a pen say if someone's a couple of weeks ahead like your return to work you know you can become a bla air or like just call if it's a boring task for one you don't like you'll leave it but no i do think it's about definitely doing of what's the reality where come back what could do now that is gonna make my life a little bit easier our more pleasant in the future if somebody is listening and going i just need the one thing what's the one thing alone is there just one thing they could do just remember that people actually prefer clarity we are being kind to people by telling them what we're going to do what we're not going to do we're kind of be un kind by being big even though that can feel better in the moment i might look at my emails i might be delayed reply well just just let's just be clear with each other and then actually makes life easier and and thank you not it's you know boundaries are healthy you know just think boundaries are healthy we need them we try and set them for for children all the time because we say that but we don't do their quiet ourselves with adults as much so that's why i would we just be really clear una clear about what you're going to do and usually it works out absolutely fine that was the amazing doctor elaine smith clinical psychologist and expert in workplace mental health and also lives about three miles from where my grandma used to live in edinburgh so these are the three key key takeaways that i can see first of all your brain is literally wired to be anxious when you stop checking so it's not a character floor it's learned behavior number two is that clear boundaries aren't rude they're actually kinder than being vague and of course number three proper rest doesn't make you lazy it makes you dramatically more productive when you return and let's not forget that doctor elena advice is grounded in proper psychology and we like that we talked about opera conditioning which explains why applying just wants reinforces bad behavior we also talked about anxiety curves it shows us why we need to ride the wave rather than constantly checking our emails for a moment of relief and of course those practical strategies like blocking out return time and writing crystal clear out of office messages you've got everything you need to get boundary setting right now so if you've got a holiday coming up and you're already feeling anxious about switching off or maybe you're dealing with colleagues who expect you to be available twenty four seven doctor lanes just give you permission to set those boundaries and the psychological tools to actually stick to them and please remember you are not being difficult when you refuse to check emails on holiday you're modeling healthy behavior that others desperately need to see and honestly future you will thank present you for being brave enough to truly disconnect i'm pretty sure your family will thank you for that as well and of course as mentioned doctor lane holiday heads space masterclass class this is the one that takes you do the five practical steps for maximum holiday rest you can find out much more about that at doctor elaine smith dot com we'll put a link in the show notes i want if you listen this far then you're gonna get a twenty percent discount just use the code to truth lies work twenty again that's gonna be in the show notes please it's not particularly expensive as it it's not even at full price is only thirty nine british pounds so what fifty dollars at the market less than that and you'll get twenty percent off so go and head over to doctor elaine website we will leave all the links and that promo code in the show notes so off you go different book that time off and actually enjoy it this is treat lives and work and we will see you next week when we're on our holiday

hello and welcome to truth lies and work summer sessions episode one my name is leanne i'm a charter occupational psychologist but i'm also just a girl sat next to a report asking her listeners to stick with her and listen to a business podcast while they're on holiday it's a tough ask that's difficult to follow that one my name is alan i'm a business owner and also sitting by a pool in on our terrace you probably hear a bit win maybe some dogs barking the back ground perhaps the occasional stock because we're in bulgaria mh for a couple of months are over summer and fun fact for bulgaria couple of things first of all stalks lots of stalks they nest on top of lamp posts maybe two stalks are massive fell like the size for cat probably bigger and three bulgarian when they say no they not their head so we went in and asked for something in a suit supermarket do you have this and they said no but not at their head very confusing anyway this is truth clients of work where we simplify the science of work and basically relax over summer i believe yeah i'm not sure we're doing much simplifying the science of work over the next few weeks but what we will be doing is bring you into our smaller day the the idea is it's august or pretty much i think this episode will go out couple of days before before august starts and we fancy a little break tube equally we wanna bring you with us on our holidays so we're gonna talk to you about things aren't typical truth lies work but are very allan leanne so particularly listen to why this we can work episodes the vibe and conversation that it will feel familiar but just slightly different topics whilst as keeping it loosely work related but fun work related you like kc leanne mh here's one from hubspot about sandler training and how they got their sales cycle in half using in hubspot ai tools in half that sounds a bit far fetched stuff the numbers are actually pretty solid they used breeze which is hubspot ai tools suite to personalize every customer interaction and as a result their qualified leads quadrupled their click through rates jump by twenty five percent and people spend three times longer on their landing pages i think i'd worry that using ai would kind remove the human touch fair point but not in this case in fact using breeze they actually enhanced it so if this sounds like something you want for your organization not yu the listener go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow if you've listened to our previous podcast you might know me from podcasts such as the sideways life we have a podcast called sideways life which is all about our travels we have a whole backstory story about that and you've probably recognizes a lot more like that because we're sitting with a gin tonic yes we are son is out unfortunately i left my sunglasses inside i and i then going in because i'm might lose connection but so and anne already she's you know one separate energy is just getting larry but yeah so so if you're expecting professional broadcasting and expecting something incredible from these episodes probably not the episode for you time lower your expectations around we're back in said demo we'll we're back with all the normal stuff which is we're also be back in our studio in roster so we'll have all the equipment there yes and we should also say as well our thursday episodes will remain largely the same guest interviews but topics are a bit more relevant so for example on thursday we have doctor elaine coming up who's is talking all about the best ways to switch off during your holiday and actually enjoy it but today we are talking about i think the official episode title is that for files we had some ideas with the assistance of of an ai platform tel generates my ideas to what talk about and we put it to our our lovely followers on linkedin and this was by far the most voted episode people wanna learn how we've completely messed up our lives and we are here to deliver absolutely so what we've decided to do is split is into three sort of like major cups i'm not sure if we're gonna with we can say that and i need to beep it i have to beep it it's the disaster files we're calling it you know what we mean so the first one is business disasters second one is korea disasters and the third one is just general disasters really real faster life disasters just roughly speaking so prepare to cringe so leigh what do you wanna kick off with your first now in yours it's actually i believe it's you've got two career and one personal and i've got one business that much of a mess up i've got one business disaster i've got two i to be fair i've got two business and what i'm one personal because my career is nothing really have no jobs since two thousand and two so can't talk about that so do you wanna start off with your first career disaster oh yes the time i got emotions how could i forget that was a tough day so cool set the scene so before you tell us what happened set the scene what what was your job what was your position how well was it going so i'm gonna take you back to early twenty twelve january in fact right at the start of twenty twelve a year the allen and i was due to get married which was stress you say due to get married barry we did catch get married no we did but i mean in january we routine to get married in in the september so a fairly high stress year or all i got promoted into a management role my first management role you in the company i with also supporting my proper management role i've been a mad before i've only had one member of staff and it a set up a brand new welfare to work contract called the family support program which was c funded by the d and the ess support fund very exciting there was me there was one coach on board basically the program is to help people who were from multi generation work with his family so work christmas you work yes so they were unemployed their parents were unemployed molecular of their grandparents had been unemployed for a significant part of their working in life i should have known it wasn't going well when on my first day we sat down in a meeting with the md the director of the contract fun fact the md the director the contract were married no pressure there and the one coach who was also starting to work one to one with the customers who had been a peer of mine for a number of years of years and has also applied for the management job that i had subsequently got so you got this person's job we applied for the same job i got it they didn't they didn't that's done a great start no like it's not a great start so we was sat this meeting talking about what the program looked like all the things we need do to set it up was just basically everything and after that first morning session the md came up to me and said the leanne anne can i have a word she sat me down on the stairs and said you don't have to do this oh that's harsh that's like what you mean she's like well you know if this is a bit of a stretch for you i understand your maybe your main motivation was to me back to manchester i've been put on a contract over in yorkshire previous and had a very commute should understand there's no pressure you're more than welcome be a coach on this contract will find somebody else to manage it i don't want you to feel that there's any pressure or not our job for you here and being the naive twenty seven year old that i was i was like i'll be fine i've got this i'll be absolutely fine so we went through the initial setup of a contract in the northwest which is manchester and cha east it went okay started to get some people onto program it was voluntary which made it difficult so typically welfare to work contracts and mandated by job centers this was voluntary and in delivered also in partnership with the local authority so it's slow getting people into program but we were started to get there they also had this contract over in yorkshire and hadn't filled that position for a manager in yorkshire so maybe about a month in we're starting to make some make some waves in the northwest and i was asked to pick up the contract in yorkshire as well so i thought to it's going well things are getting and i got the call from the same md that told me i didn't need to do this so i thought that's a nice phone call a bit of faith a bit of trust here so i also then took on yorkshire and it was probably over the next three months that the wheels really start to fall off if you're not from the uk manchester and yorkshire aren't that close and we had all of yorkshire so we're short talking in yorkshire west yorkshire east yorkshire largest county i think in england so base pretty much coast coast at the north of england a big area just may no fixed premises or community based had to bring in all the coaches built a team from ground up and that's probably the only thing that i can still say confidently that i did write because of all the members of staff that i hired in those initial four to five months every single one of them except one remained on a contract for its entirety which is three and a half nice so that i did well but understandably massive area complete startup up two contracts very complex brand new i was out of my depth if i'm being honest i wasn't provided the support i probably should have been by the organization at this point to the point where we meant to deliver courses they weren't being developed in head office as i promised they were just and i to pick up that as well and developed the course of myself equally did them well because those courses also stayed in place for the entirety contract so when my strengths were recruitment pathway development training and development all that type of thing smashed it but in terms of building a contract from startup or the logistics office structure we needed systems processes i struggled and it was just it was just me so we get to about july august i know it's not going well and i'm starting to feel that i'm losing control of where things are up to but i feel like it's ticking by we then go on holiday day to get married we got married in gibraltar so we had three weeks annual leave wedding in the honeymoon and i came back after three weeks and the entire contract was broken because i hadn't set up enough systems and processes that it could function without me being there and a new roller coming in way blah blah from the prime contractor which meant we didn't have a right paperwork in place and anyway don't wanna make any excuses i was out my depth and i went into a meeting maybe on my third day back with said day and my director i was told that i wasn't doing enough good enough job i being d demoted and i have three options i could either become a coach on the contractor in manchester to basically become a peer of the people i had been i'd recruited into the business and have been managing up that rough i could go back to the contract i used to work on in yorkshire as a occurred long commute promotion back to the role i was in previously or a third option was i could be a tutor so i could actually deliver the courses that i developed to the customers so i went home i spoke to a obviously and a couple of trusted colleagues and decided that i'd be tutor because the other two options seemed like stepping back this at least like a bit of a sidestep and something new can i ask you at this point then how much of this was ego led as and you didn't want to look i even take a step back it was a bit of ego but to be honest it was more from a view of career development because at this point you and i started talking about moving to spain mh and i kinda thought well i'm not i'm not gonna find a job coach role gibraltar because when employment doesn't exist also but i might find a training and development role gibraltar so it it's more that that aspect of it and to be fair when i had been a coach running the training sessions had been my favorite part of it so i went back in the next day it said i wanna be a tutor that's what i'll do and the md was not expecting that she didn't like that she thought i was go back to being in coach so we took a break and my director called john who was also the mds husband said to me i think you can do this i just think it was too much for you to take on the entire north region i think if you just have manchester with a team you've got in place the premises you put in place i think in three months you'll smash it so he really campaigned for me to the d to give me this opportunity she was knocking keen and it was made very clear to me that if i didn't completely turn around a contract by christmas and this would have been late september than then i was basically at the job so again challenge accepted at this point allan i'd already made the decision that we were gonna move to spain in the spring so it's kinda like well make the most of it deal with what happens and at that point as well john became much more of a hands on mental mentor and time coach and i got my self together in terms of being more organized understanding exactly where all of our customers are at where our coaches are at much more hands on to the point polly micro management within that first six weeks to understand exactly what was going on and just found our groove found the joy in what we were doing we had a lovely wave of of inflow of customers coming on which also made everything easy to hit our targets and by christmas we were smashing it and the md came to manchester to visit me and asked me to stay on is managed fabulous is that the same contract that you ended up running from spain yes yes so this would have been at christmas and made the decision and plan to move to spain in may so i handed in my notice in april contract still doing really well explained john we were moving abroad he was very sweet gave me a hug wish me well and then the next morning i got a phone call he said to me but when we left an a meeting i don't talk to anyone yet i obviously wanna talk through could katrina and understand how we handle this transition the next morning out a phone from john and he was like just to understand are you leaving your job because you have another job to go to in gibraltar or you're leaving your job because you think you can't do it from while being abroad and was like the second one he like well i'm not so sure about that i said i think you can probably do the majority of this job remotely so go and have a think about how much of a job you think you could do what system structure potentially other the members of staff and you'd put in place on the grand of manchester and talked to about and see if it's even something he'd want you to consider because we would expect you to come back a week a month to the uk we had those conversations and it worked out really well we flew to spain in may and for the next two years i worked as a remote manager going back to uk a week a month in fact it went kind better than that because after a year i got promoted into the national manager role where i had manchester i regained yorkshire which is why i got demoted from and also picked up cornwall so let's just say that someone's listening to this and they go oh god that i feel like that's happened to me or i'm at the situation where things aren't great at work maybe not been demoted but they just haven't got the promotion that they wanted is there any advice you give them i made the mistake that every first manager the vast majority of first matches make i felt i need to do all of my own i felt need to have all the answers and i felt that asking for help would be a sign of weakness and signal to my competence and the exact opposite is true the minute i asked for help went to my team asked for their help went to my manager asked for his help different colleagues across the business when it all turned around i was stuck in this complete frozen threat state of overwhelm that i didn't i didn't do anything effectively so i think if you're feeling that or if you've just been d demoted or you can feel that coming think about who around you you can ask for support and ask for help and in if if it's possible to reduce your focus air down to the absolute must be done have to be done suddenly lee when you look back on this what thirteen years ago fourteen years ago do you still see it as a career disaster yes i probably do i probably do i because i can't show cody too much it was it was such a hard hard experience and that was also the year that i start to have really bad panic text so my mental health took a real toll as well and it took me a long time to rebuild my credibility with the rest of the organization my team not so much my direct mind is not so much my md not so much but gossip in organization's happens so it took me a good probably twelve months to rebuild any form of credibility if i'm being honest there are some leaders and emerges in that organization that never truly stormy me is a competent no matter how successful ess s was and it was by far and most successful contracts the organization has ever seen i think we finished with from start up we finished with maybe more than three thousand customers have gone through the program forty plus members of staff and yeah we always wanna the top performing but booked that but that one that one slip stayed with me i'm with my reputation with certain people throughout the business it was one of the hardest things i've ever been through in my career it was really really hard because there's an element of you have to internalize that failure to an extent that you can learn from and growth from it and that's a process we have to go through but that little sting failure is still there and always will be i also think that's where maybe i i've since developed a lot of empathy for people who find themselves as accidental merges or new numerators without the training where i can connect with them in ways that perhaps other practitioners and trainers and coaches can't so it's definitely given me the unique perspective but if i was being honest and i could go back and have it not happen and to know that be a hard choice okay we're gonna take a very short break after this i believe anne got a question for me hey you yeah at you if you're enjoying truth lies work was another podcast on the spot network that i think you're gonna really really like you joined me yeah was it is this the mistakes that made me booker yes it is i've been binge binging this as well recently au man ism interviews these amazing business owners about their biggest business mistakes and honestly it is fascinating how often these massive errors lead to the biggest breakthroughs throughs i just love how real emma man is i'm hugely helpful in her advice in her latest episode she's thirty four weeks pregnant and breaks out exactly how she system her agency so it runs smoothly while she's on maternity and of course other a psychologist i really appreciate how emma is normalizing failure is just a simple part of the business journey you can listen to mistakes that made meet wherever you get your but enough about me in my career as us there's another one coming down a which one of your mess ups do you wanna start with first let's start with a big one so it was two thousand and two i'd been working for about well basically i've started working a pub then i moved up to manager then they had my own pub but then i got fired for my own pub because someone was stealing and i couldn't tell them who so they were like okay well you're stealing so and i wasn't by the way but they so i got fired from that so i had a couple of really weird jobs sales jobs folk tele sales jobs that kind of thing and then had enough of working in the office and said right i'm gonna start gonna stop my own business two thousand and two it was basically if you've heard of uber saw anything similar it was basically that in two thousand and two so you'd ring me up up two o'clock in the morning and i would bring you some beer and that was it and it was aimed for students a couple of issues that started that business first of all the peak times as in light just when the pub shot back there you couldn't buy alcohol twenty four hours i know for all those kids who are oh my god if you born two thousand and two how old would you be now it'd be twenty three wouldn't so yeah those kids so anyone who's over the age of forty will know in the uk well know you can never used to be able to buy alcohol so this solved the problem basic i'd sell it over the phone to people would ring up and i get the drivers out but there was lots of peak demand around about eleven till one and then around about sort of two thirty till four in the morning but i paid the drivers rather than paying per delivery i paid them in hourly rate which meant that i didn't it didn't make a lot of money and the second issue was i didn't really look forward as look i wasn't really careful about what was gonna happen in future i heard that the licensing law was gonna change didn't think it was gonna affect me and of course it did it decimated that at a high where i was like think we had sort of twenty staff and we were doing twenty thirty grand a week which back into you know two thousand and two two thousand and three was you know decent but no that didn't work at all so essentially what happened was i was every week i was trying to make payroll and i just ring the bank and they'd have to give me a temporary overdraft for three days and then i'd pull i withdraw the money to pay all the staff and then the revenue from those three days or at least i think it was actually when the credit cards went through and when that money hit the account it allowed me then to get back into the back into the black it see this is why this this is why i don't know this is why i went bankrupt i don't know the difference between red and black when get back into the black and it was really tough time i ended up moving out the house i lived in i lived in the warehouse i built a little room in the back and i did everything to try and keep that business alive but was not to be so when the license all came in went from twenty grand a week to about two grand a week had to find ninety nine percent of my staff and too fair at two grand a week were kind of almost profitable but by that stage i got a hundred and three grams worth of debt mainly to hsbc banks sorry if you worked there and you and you were around in two thousand and three two thousand and four and so eventually i was like right well i'm gonna have to declare bankruptcy so i did so i'm bankrupt in two thousand and five for a hundred and three thousand pounds oof oof indeed before we dwell on the bankruptcy i i wanna ask you because about the because this is so like we say alice a business owner alice is is and i know you hate this word entrepreneur in ways that there are many entrepreneurs because not only did you have this idea that you saw yes it's the early north every student wants to keep drinking he after eleven o'clock and they don't say wanna go out club in but then you also had to find very creative of ways of working around the existing laws around selling alcohol so tell us a little bit about that okay so without boring you about the legal regulations back then but essentially there was something called off sales and on sales on sales were on premises sales that was in bars and clubs off premises sales was you bought you sold alcohol to basically drink at home or drink off the premises so that's basically what it was so we definitely came onto the off license rules which meant that you're only allowed to sell alcohol during what the couple committed hours which is ten am to ten pm it sounds archaic now and the kids these days you know if you're like what you mean you can't go in at three o'clock in the morning and buy a bottle of white claw or whatever it's called but no you couldn't after to ten pm you weren't allowed to buy any an alcohol unless you went to a pub and then even then at eleven o'clock would shop so this was the this was the hole that i thought we could fill now the now just just to be fair there was a company out there called i can't remember what a calls now first emergency or something and they were trading but they were doing it wholesale because whole we're being in the uk and the sam border but we're in the uk you were able to sell a wholesale without without a license which by basically wholesale is twenty four ka arc so what they were doing was students were can i four cans along and they going no you have to buy twenty four on the like i don't wanna i buy twenty four go well that's the other idea where we can sell it to you so there was that we found a slightly weird way around this i found a law that basically said that if you're you're allowed to set aside orders four customers during committed hours and you're allowed to give it to them after permitted hours as long as you then take the money during committed hours now that's this bear with me what that basically means if leanne if i if said to me i want four ka lag tonight at two am then i'm allowed to permitted hours going to my shop take four ka lag put a sticky note and they're saying fully am and then at two am go and take her those look take at that lag i'm not allowed to take any money from her at that point but then if i went in knocked a door at ten o one the next morning and said can you pay with those lag that's perfectly okay so i was like well obviously that's not a good great business plan but you know when you when you go into a hotel and they take a swipe of your card well i did that about the same time which hotel to swipe a card was like tell me how this works so oh it's called a pre i've you know i forgotten the term but it's called like a reserve kind of thing pre something is called and what they would do is essentially reserve the money on your card and then they would complete that purchase that transaction when you left i was like oh so that means i can go in basically take a swipe of the ant card when i deliver the a call at two am and then at ten am i could then complete that sale knowing the money's reserved me for twenty four hours and i could do and i did that for like two years boy well one of my best friends and her business partner in her current business he was at his job was to come in and essentially we had one of those old fashioned machines where you with numbers on it where you typed the credit card number in and you typed the expiry date and you tap the amount you press enter and he just he just basically went through and did completion for all of the transactions the night before will be hundreds you're taking four or five hours to do that but that's the way we got around it so like wow we found a way this is cool but then we got a visit from the licensing officer first one and the license officer said can you just show me where this person ordered this alcohol so go back to lia example what i was doing was taking the four ka at two am taking a swipe of her card to reserve the ten pounds whatever i was taking off and then the next morning at ten o one i was typing a card in again in completing that transaction the problem was the licensing officer was licensing officer was clever and he seems basically the police the person charge with licensing and said when did you act when did actually ordered that that stumped me a little bit i'll be honest because leanne hadn't ordered that you've rung me up at two am as guy you bring it to me so i was like so then i wrote a bit of software back in if you remember lotus notes no i can't with a database one was in lotus but i wrote bit of software that essentially generated every possible combination of order for every possible customer we had a record of and we had like maybe a hundred like files and each one of those had an order like they had basically everything anyone could order from every customer so the landlord order of four ka in a bottle cad she would have an independent order for four ka and an independent order for bottle cad that been auto generated during committed hours that i could then prove she's pre ordered it of course we'd never showed them the files but that's we could do it that satisfy the us the officer for a little while but then about six months later it all went wrong so what happened when it went wrong so license the officer i went you by solicit by this stage we're working my solicit you just loved you he was finest gigs that you had it really did i think he did wells and stuff like that boring stuff and then this was this was really bit fun fun fact was also in the commonwealth games as a as a speed walking like finalist got bronze or something but anyway he he eventually wrote rang me up he went look he's we need to get a court they wanna see us again so went front of the mag rates and he walked into me in the man straight courtney and went bob who was the last officers bob is furious with you hey you said i think it's the end of the end of the road so i and was i go in front of the mag and they basically said look no i'm res sending your license taking away from you you're not it's you you're you're operating otherwise in accordance with the with the license so i got taken away i was like oh what do i do now well i did find out remember this the wholesale thing where it as long as you sell as long as you sell twenty four cans of lag or beer or whatever as long as you sell twenty four cans like you don't need license well i looked at that and that and the laws said it could include lag beer and perry now perry is a pair wine and if that was the uk remembers lo lamborghini lamborghini was the cheapest petrol horrible stuff you could possibly buy really girls just wanna have fun oh it was horrible but you could buy a liter for genuinely about back and that will class wholesale well if you bought you could if you bought six pack for about five pounds that'll be six liters and that meant then your minimum order just became something like eight cans of lag or four cans remember exactly where we worked it out but it basically it became four cans lag so we still sold individually as if was an off license but every single customer had to buy this lo lamborghini to make it up to wholesale so that we weren't breaking the law and then we also said but don't worry if you buy it as long as you keep keep it intact and give it back us when you order again we'll give you a refund against it but of course when he ordered it again they got another case of i'm breeding so so and most people's students to the drink anyway dish but that we did sell that literally it cost possibly even less than even below cost so but yeah that lasted until the license law changed and then that was it i went bankrupt so a a fun ride i i'm not gonna lie it was a lot of fun but it was also very very stressful and i'm now very gray and i think a lot of that came from those like five years of of running that and also obviously i i lost my my house i got that repo and i also bought an investment house in managed manchester to the that they got repo as well and i couldn't get a bank couldn't get a mortgage for seven years you know so but still like you say it was a lot of fun so take me back here at this point what twenty seven twenty eight yeah that's right bankrupt for a hundred and three thousand pounds mh and you do what what what happens next you look for a job do you move back with your mom and dad what happened so at that point i got a job selling off planned stuff now off plan properties i thought it was legit turns out it wasn't in fact funnily enough the the person behind that has now been the serious fraud office that have just finished an investigation and i believe that guy looking at somewhere between eight to ten years in the big house in the in prison so yeah interesting interesting times but yes i did that and then and then because i had my house repo i was like i know all of about repo recession repositioning i'd looked into it so the you know the kid member was seventeen it was doing all my all my credit card i think he'd been to university at that point and i said you actually start in a business where we go and buy repo houses and he was like sure so we did so he's that the company we bought quite a number of houses so around about forty houses in about eighteen months of people are getting repo and that built our wealth so we built and basically that's the wealth that i suppose to to this day we have so it'll all it it all worked out right in the end it did work out or at the end i wanna ask you though about the immediate aftermath of being bankrupt because that is it's something then there shouldn't there shouldn't be shame attached to it but there is definitely a stigma attached to it it's certainly in the uk not in the entrepreneur entrepreneurial community because i hear people say like you're not a real entrepreneur unless you've been bankrupt at least once but certainly amongst the general kind of population bankruptcy is a bit of a is it yeah it's it's got a stigma how did you how is your mental health in that immediate well i think i suppose immediately like if we're talking literally me i went to court and i i don't i've never been to court before had i had been court in court for the magic but my i assume there's be different courts i assumed to be like the bill you know where they'd be like someone in a wig and i'd be stood in a box and basically like it wasn't out and so they they have a big ga and then be like i declare you bankrupt now take him down kind of thing and actually i sat a room i filled that's reforms and then an hour later she came back and went there they go at your bankrupt and it was such an anti climax that i went to i went to a local pub and i think i just spent the afternoon in there with the little money i had just having a few beers and fully very sorry myself but truth was this was what two thousand and seven so two thousand and five i'll be twenty eight and something special about being in your twenties because you are so resilient and so i was like rather than going well my you know my my life's over i was like okay what can we do now what's next and so went and got that got that job selling dodgy stuff which i didn't know at the time and then start the business about a a year later with eighteen months later so the same question you asked me with that in mind do you still see as a business value no hundred percent not had i not had that failure early on if i had it now that be difficult to recover from both financially and mentally that would be tough one to cut to because imagine if you'd spent like thirty years buildings something or twenty years buildings something me and then it went pop so no that's a tough one to come back from is that also why you're a big fan of the gen z younger millennial generation here out there with a side hustle is in trying to build something for themselves yeah exactly i think if you're gonna get it wrong get it wrong in your twenties because if fact you should be getting wrong in your twenties i think there's an old yi expression that something like if you're not making mistakes you're not making enough decisions and i would say in your twenties if you'd if you're not if you're don't on the brink of bankruptcy at least once every year or if you're not doing something you really really regret you not done something you really regret then you've not made it enough decision so i think you should go out there try everything at childbirth and morris and i've done neither advice taken i can't believe the time it's going by are clearly talking about trauma suits as well i i know we had another one each i wonder if maybe me talk about this another another time i guess a teaser for you headline would be i quit my job with nothing else to go to on the first of february twenty twenty and my teaser is that i once got in the same year i once got an investigation from the in inland revenue and also the vat squad this is the the this is when there were two separate things the vat squad turned up with eight people in a black van at my warehouse and ripped everything apart so that's gonna come up in a future episode but let's just talk and let's just finish things off with a a bit of a fun one although it's not front fun and i don't think they we're gonna talk about our personal we're gonna talk about the time that you know that moment three am or even no probably more like eleven am eleven pm you're just lying a bed you you've about to go to sleep and your brain just pro goes you remember that time that you did this you go oh god no oh i hate it lee what does your brain say at eleven pm and it's prodding you telling you to something silly joe that time you found the pool in thailand at you best mate wedding oh i cannot not believe that you are making me share this i didn't tell anyone for so long i just wanted to tell everyone because it was the funniest thing i've ever seen but at the time now my stomach is going i'm so come on i'll get and everyone with like a plaster so set the scene tell us what happened and tell us why it was even more mo than it actually sounds my best friend at was getting married love his life kenny in thailand coast movie we got invited to the wedding were actually the only friends invited which was a huge honor because there was family it was was family no it wasn't a alone no there was there was family there and family friends but there was no like personal friends so we were the the only two invited which was a huge honor alan and i being because at that point we were living in spain were like still fit let's us make a month of it and we traveled around thailand first and then met up and c me with allen and kenny and the fam for wedding beautiful beautiful day it rained but i mean in terms of like the ceremony beautiful day they had thai monks chanting in the ceremony and actually the rain added to it in an thai buddhist culture water is very lucky so actually they were very excited that it was raining that day and and it was a yeah beautiful beautiful ceremony beautiful meal an incredible privileged to share that very intimate moment with such just margaret people the evening comes the rain clouds partridge and the the party started in the pool area beautiful pool it's a a complex called tango looks and c google it it's stunning go there on your next holiday incredible in fact alec like if you're listening he's there now tied to the gang so we're on the we're on the pool area this must been a but i know exactly what time it was it's about quarter to midnight and we were we were chatting and a few drinks have been consumed but anyone who knows me knows i'm i'm i'm from the northwest my parents are scar and my blood line is irish i'm am a girl that can handle her drink she can so i'd had a few drinks of course but i was by no means drunk and certainly not drunk enough for this event to happen that was coming without being absolutely mortified the pool area was stunning it's one of those infinity pools you know the walmart it kind of like it has no edge only with this one it did have an edge and it was like a little two foot wide gutter that that kind of went around the area of the pool and then there is a decking of the the pool area so we had been told i'll be careful of the the edge of the pool be careful edge of pool so i'd had been stood chatting to alex mom and his niece and just chatting about various things as an asked was very cool and very fun and very bubbly and then we hear announcement that the fireworks they're about to start at midnight how wonderful if everyone could make their way to the beach i'm in then just chatter chatter with alex norman nice i turn around and the worst thing is i said something like linda you so cool at this point my will probably tell me to stop drink and then the next thing i remember is being in the pool gutter not even the pool not even the pool if it was the pool i would've been able to style it out or been like hey come on everybody in the pool gus i don't even know how i got in it i don't know because you that like the the you could bang your head easily is two foot wide you could bang your head take cart wheeled into it there was no other explanation for it because to the point where when i i went full under into like my head was under as well it wasn't much like my my legs philip my entire head went under the water i pop up and i'm then facing with my back to the bar area where i just fallen from looking over the full pool to the hotel and halved it so i'm sideways right so that the pool is like i'm looking at it so i have to turn in the gutter to be able to then fish myself out but because my hips are fairly fairly wide as any you know good luck and shape woman's ears i couldn't actually turn the full way i did love so i couldn't actually like fit my hips because it was only like it was it was honestly it must have been like a foot and a half like thirty forty cents because it wasn't much so i couldn't actually like turn all the way so i had to like lift myself up out enough i to get take my out the water to turn around and then lower myself back down to then see the entire freaking wedding party looking be going you are right and at this point bless alex alex niece is like fishing my handbag out of the pool and and somebody saying grab a towel all and and somebody fishes me out i can't even remember who it was and i'm trying to like how funny out house leave me because i'm not drunk off for this to be no a thing or funny you haven't like oh gosh and then at that point it was like one minute to the fireworks because i like oh my god everyone just go to the beach distraction thank god a distraction let's go let's go with this tower i'm gonna and then one fireworks goes off and then they fail all the fire all the fireworks fail so i had one rocket and that was it and then of course everyone turns batch to me and goes what happened so i was like and then and then steph access who actually used to work with at at pinnacle the company we've just been talking about with alec came up to me i'm blessed she's she's she's a lovely lovely girl but she was laughing just like what the oh yeah i how did she do that oh my god how is it even possible and i was i don't know she's like why is your hair wet i was like i don't no so i was like i'm gonna take this opportunity to go in back to the the hotel room and change because i'm still dripping head to toe yeah so i went back to our beautiful little and has like little courtyard and i sat i think i got out of my dress now sat dressing gown just on the on in the lounge area just thinking i can't go back out there this is the worst thing it's ever happened to me can i just just so at this point i wasn't there i didn't see leanne undo it i was at the bar and the anne was walking towards the fireworks and i was just finishing my beer at the bar and someone said was falling in the pool and i went oh my god that's embarrassing isn't it i hadn't realized he was my wife so just in case you thought that i was doing nothing i was wasn't there when you fell in and you went back on your own i believe because yeah you didn't want me to no i insisted on that i insist on that so i'm sat there i probably at this point about twenty past midnight at my best friend's wedding thinking i want to leave immediately can i book a flight out of here and at that point alec comes to the door the group my best friend comes to the door and he's likely just sits down to me he's like you okay hon i'm like no a like and i'm not okay i'm not okay that is the worst thing that could have happened and you can see him kind of halfway between like genuine can concern empathy and just laughing yeah you can see the pain drug in his face but he keeps it together you let am in situations like this in this situation you got two options either you go to bed embarrassed and ruin my wedding day nope you put another dress you dry your hair you get out there and you have a great night i was like well not much a choice alec like is it you're like no so go and get dressed you did i did and went back out and it's that point you know everyone's very kind at that point because i realized i think that i'm mortified it's not nice as funny as i thought it was so almost like what you okay to being a market to show yourself and at that point i sit down next to kenny mom yeah denise the other the other groom and she is from preston and the most wonderful northern soul or the earth woman you'll ever meet and i i sat down and she goes no i love he went yeah yeah so you fell the pool yeah embarrassing that love yeah it is and then she went over and just took my hand went you okay i like yeah she's like do you wanna drink was like yeah and then the rest was history until the next morning when i bump to alex cousin who who'd gone to bed already because she had a small child with her and said you alright right heard fat the pool last night at that point i was like i that i can't i can't talk about like completely tricky she say oh my god i didn't realize it was a so yeah so i didn't tell anyone for a while i believe that alec and kenny did pull up the cctv and the subsequent honeymoon at the same as all and laughed very hard it let me falling into it i think the resort team were very pleased that i didn't launch any kind of health and safety violation given the ease of which i could fall into the poor and i didn't talk about it again until alice fourteenth which boy would have been in year later when your sister came up to and was like i've just i've been told alec and he said you found the pool wet think i was like what so it gets it gets rolled out as a story amongst the friendship group from time time but i think before i told my closest girlfriend it was probably a good three years later yeah couldn't couldn't yeah mortified so thank you for letting me relive that i will spend the next day to eighteen you months was trying to push that back down yeah yeah absolutely no problem you like looking at i'm now and she's like wiping her eyes and i know there's like halfway between looks so seen or just laughing or perhaps crying or perhaps a combination in all three burst so that is the most embarrassing moment of my life and up that fail there is no lessons to be learnt from it out there are no oh shiny takeaways of resilience to take from it was a worst embarrassing amount of my life and i will never go over it on my deathbed i'm sure the last thing i will think about is you remember the time you found the pool and if i out leave you then i will tell it i know you will i know you have okay so just really quickly because we've only got a couple of minutes left but i will tell you my story and my story is so so so simple remember tesco yes in the supermarket so there's a soup supermarket chain in the uk court tesco basically think walmart that's essentially the same thing although i'm not sure the tesco would re or tesco cohen in the original woman who started it would be please me with that and with that comparison so i walk tesco as i go up to the meat counter and i'm like okay lia told to go get some ham so i went to get some ham so i went across to the meat counter and i saw there was like some in the uk they have this processed ham that's horrible something looks like a teddy bear they literally processed it to make a look like a teddy bears face it's like la so that's like the worst ham and then there's medium ham which is just supposed to look like fake ham bit sweaty ham sweaty ham which which is processed but they put little bits of white in it to make it look like it's proper ham but it's not that's the wafer thin ham and then they have the good ham the like like the pepper yeah what is it called like pepper crust crust and it's just it's a proper piece of pig eggs crust it's really really nice so i was so i took down from ham she said that she pointed to to the to the the sn ham them the wafer for the wafer thin ham said no no not that one i kinda have the good hand at the front and it just so happened that the that this cabinet was quite kind of wide so when i point at the front it was a bit was near as me standing face the cabinet but furthest for this woman to actually reach across and get so she's trying to reach across and she can barely reach to get this with her tongs she can barely reach to get this ham and she picked the first bit it fell off and we both chuckle and picked up the second bit and she and she only pulled a little bit off and and i was like oh my god your i'm not long enough to reach that arm and she just stopped let me directly in the eye and just stared at me i'm like why the hell is she what what's wrong with her what have i said it's not like and i looked across another her other arm was kind of i don't know whether it was cut off at the elbow amputated at the elbow amputated at the elbow that's her other arm and i'm like oh my god that's why she's staring at me and i just thought there is nothing you can do to make this situation worse and then my brain went hold my beer because without thinking about it i just pointed at her stomp arm and i went i didn't mean that one ad she oh she was mortified i was mortified i'm mortified slightly still she's heard this five times now she's still speechless she she walked away i walked away suffice to say there was no ham sandwich that right night we had tune instead and that's the moment not the moment of leg is your arm not long enough because that's bad enough but just me just saying i didn't mean that one and pointing at this poor woman's amputated arm that's the worst thing if you you i mean you guys know out by now you know he's a he's a kind intelligent gentle soul who tries to do everything he can to make people's lives better he's also a complete do i am hundred percent and i just it breaks my heart because i know that horn you it's still haunt you and it's it's yeah it's it's it's just one of those situations where it it was a complete unintended accident that you tried to make better and failed and ultimately it made worse so we didn't shop in that tesco again no we didn't and you know what this like you say you need to forgive yourself i think sometimes and this is that this is the jerry spring as jerry's final thought you forgive yourself sometimes and so often when i do think about that and i cringe so hard that sometimes i literally like sort of like curl up like a prawn then i just go come on now it's not that bad this shouldn't fall in a pool so on that bombshell we shall leave it for today no thank you for joining us thank you for if you come this far we will have another episode like this at some point and then i'm gonna go and lia i'm just gonna come and have a little conversation with you i'm gonna go cry in the bathroom if you wanna share my humiliation come out to linkedin say hi connect so do you know what lia i heard you your paul story and i'm equally embarrassed for you if you have an embarrassing story to share a career fail of business fail that maybe you something found or maybe it was just freaking awful share sharing is caring and i think the overall messages we all mess up for it's how we respond to it in how we move forward and we we boot forward in the best ways we could then look at us now it's sat next to a pool in in bulgaria retailing our worst moments to people ian internet who we've never met there is a worse moment than all of that and that is that my gin finished your gin is warm needs to go to replace that so we will see you guys next week bye bye